Race- Privilege, Relations, Racism, etc.

I can understand that he thinks a non-black audience might laugh at the wrong part of the jokes.

Considering that many of his jokes are racist, to varying degrees and targets, I can too.

edited 18th Jan '15 1:16:50 PM by Memers

Dave Chappell quit his entire show for the very reason people were laughing at the wrong thing and not recognizing his satire.

I think that's a problem between race relations. Humor is a good way to try and help people build empathy and getting messages across in a way that helps people retain messages. It can engage audiences that would normally be inaccessible.

But it is a fine line. And especially with black comedians, the jumpy jivy-witty sidekick, and other "funny" stereotypes, you have to be careful not to accidentally perpetuate that stereotype.

There's also audience's desire for validation of their own prejudices: "A black man agrees with me, therefore I cannot be racist!"

None of which appears to apply to Cho's routine at the GG.

Not necessarily, but there is the angle of "I don't disagree with what you did I disagree with what the audience took from it" that some might argue —shrug—

Something rubs me the wrong way when it's purely outsiders to a culture criticizing someone for being racist to their own culture. Especially when it's as knee-jerk as what I saw. Opening a dialog about it is one thing; treating it as if you don't need a dialog to dismiss it is another.

It's easily possible to not realize, it's not like people wear signs saying what culture they're part of. Well, mostly.

The ones I saw, it was all Tumblr SJ people who clearly advertised their racial grouping (according to US categories) on their pages.

What does everyone thinks of this video?

Well that's your problem right there, you're looking at the left-wing equivalent of youtube comments, a bunch of angry self-important people who care more about making themselves feel "big" and "right" than anything else. Facts matter to such people about as much as they do to the angry guy in the youtube comments section.

I think it's brilliant and largely truthful.

That video was pretty bad.

Good video, liked that it hit the point of race still mattering even if it was a construct, too often, people hear race doesn't technically exist and decide as a result any context involved just doesn't matter.

Well, shit got REALLY weird in the first week of rehearsal today. We were holding an informal "talent show" because we like seeing the new people's skills (and any new skills from established theater folks) and one of our members crossed a line.

He was doing a standup routine and he went, "so I'm not racist like "die, [derogatory Asian slur]" or "[n-word], get back to the ghetto," but I'm racist because I'm [a very long-winded and clearly satirical "reclaiming" sort of expression]."

And everyone's just cautiously letting him keep going because we really hope this joke is going to kill the room, but then he launched into an Asian Driver joke and I just got this visceral thought of "NO. NONONONONO. I AM ASIAN AND I DRIVE REASONABLY WELL, HOLY FUCK NO."

So I step out into the lobby and pace around to get my bearings, and yeah, the professor called it off and moved to the next person.

Facts I know:

• The Asian Driver joke was clearly part of a set-up, and he was not intending it to be the actual joke.
• He did not intend to hurt anyone's feelings (there are a couple more Asian students besides me this semester; not sure how they felt, but I'm probably the one who had the most uncontrolled reaction).

My feelings right now:

• NONONONONONONONO FUCK THE ASIAN JOKES I AM NOT LISTENING TO THIS SHIT FNDSALJNJDFKGABJAB.
• Literally every Asian-joke punchline is going through my head.

This is one of those things where you just can't calm down easily, no matter how much you repeat the facts. I am so irrationally mad right now, I have to keep consciously relaxing my muscles and consciously reminding myself to breathe.

Part of this has to be from shock. Seriously, not only is he one of my friends, but he's black. We all call each other out on the very rare instances of bad jokes/stories, or something coming out wrong.

And now we have to do a run-through of the play tomorrow, and I'm one of the principal roles, and ugggggh. I'm just repeating the fact list from above until the feelings taper off, watching a nature show about wolf-to-dog evolution, and tomorrow I run my lines.

I wish Brain Bleach was real.

edited 21st Jan '15 8:08:49 PM by Sharysa

We have a trope for part of what he was doing, Discriminate and Switch.

I've read through with this thread. And it sounds like Ukonkivi was a racist. I don't know how she is today, but it sounds like she was pressured by racists to behave and believe a certain way. That's no an excuse, by I'm trying to empathize with where she was coming from, and I think I understand a little. The internet can be a pretty racist place, and it can be pretty easy to feel alone.

And I think I know what she was talking about when she said that "anti-racist" are against racial and cultural intermixing. What she was talking about sounds like the "cultural appropriation" controversy. Maybe she didn't know the word was called cultural appropriation. I can imagine someone telling her that eating Kimchi was wrong and racist cultural appropriation as a white person. And being alienated with and hurt with such people.

At least, it sounds like that was what she was talking about when she complained about anti-racists.

Maybe, being scared of social justice or the left and being called things like racist, cultural appropriator, and fetishist. She thought it would be easier to sneak in some interracialism and interculturalism into nationalist movements or anti-social justice, conservative movements.

That's at least the best I can understand it. That wouldn't work, because nationalists aren't going to accept "cultural appropriation" and cultural mixing, either. But I'm trying to empathize with her, and this seems like what she might have been thinking.

If so, that's kind of sad. That someone was so scared of and alienated by being considered a fetishistic and cultural appropriating racist, that they turned to far right nationalism as some kind of coping mechanism and and escape.

It makes me think all the more so, that while cultural appropriation can be bad and racist. Cultural appreciation exists, too. And that going too far criticizing it, it can have just the opposite effect, and make people more racist.

I feel like some people should be more careful when explaining fetishism and appropriation. I don't think that some of the things that some people have to say about cultural appropriation is moving the race conversation along very well.

I remember Ukonkivi. We used to fight all the time once upon a time because of their obsessive "preference" with the Mukokuseki concept. Even before I got into the whole social justice game I wasn't exactly a fan of someone who wanted a world washed pale. I don't remember the specifics of our arguments, they were quite long ago and I don't think they were in OTC.

Maybe by that, she meant racially ambiguous? It sounds like she was pained by racial separatism, and for some reason, responded with backward nationalistic beliefs. Maybe what she really felt was, "I don't like Asians and Europeans being separate".

Though, in this thread, it sounded like she got kind of nationalistic. Like white nationalism or Turanism or some mixture between the two.

After reading some of this thread and some of her posts, it sounds like she responded to be blamed of cultural appropriation by becoming more conservative and nationalistic. And she sounded kind of like a Turanist. Her name was "Ukonkivi" after all. It sounds like some kind of mixture between White Nationalism and Turanism that she was expressing.

So, yeah, that's kind of white supremacist and terrible. But I try to empathize with people, even people who hold terrible beliefs and feelings. Even racists and sexists and homophobes. Like, I'm not a TERF, but I can understand the feelings TER Fs have, sometimes.

It sounds like, as a white person, Ukonkivi felt excluded from Asian cultures she loved and appreciated. And responded to those feelings of exclusion by excluding others.

That's my understanding, at least. I don't know who Ukonkivi is. I just started reading this thread from the beginning instead of the recent posts. And noticed a lot of posts from and about Ukonkivi and was trying to figure out what was going on.

Did you try to understand what she meant when she said she was a fan of Mukokuseki?

We'l sort of related to what you said. The love and interest in Asians and Asian culture and seemed to see Mukokuseki as a sort of unifying sort of thing.

I recall I was trying to sort of figure out someone who wasn't mean or evil or anything but was openly against the "aesthetic" of people who were dark skinned. I mean I remember a lot of the conversations going in directions of "you're allowed to like people that are light skinned, that's okay" but then Ukonkivi would say one thing that would take it like a step further and then they come off as racist and then the whole thing would spiral off again.

I think it came down to Ukonkivi wanting to openly want everyone to be white or pale or Asian-like without being seen as a bad guy.

EDIT: I just looked at the thread's first page. I had no clue I was in here that early on but I can tell by my reaction that I was really annoyed by Ukonkivi's attitude from previous conversations we had so their posting in a thread about race when they were so squeamish about the topic irritated me.

edited 24th Jan '15 8:33:16 PM by MousaThe14

Hmmm, I don't know. I hope she's better and less racist, now. And isn't afraid of appreciating Asian cultures, either.

Could you show me some of her posts, maybe?

I guess if I were to guess, she probably interalized the believes that light skinned is better. Most of the world seems to have done that, it's very tragic and sad.

Maybe she was also alienated by the idea of "people of colour" and felt excluded. Everything I read in this thread makes it feel like she's a Japanophile who was scared of herself and wanted to find any justification of any kind not to see Japanese people and white people as a separate people.

Maybe she took it out on brown skinned people or anyone who she felt didn't bring white people and Japanese people together.

If you're a Japanophile, you're kind of caught between two worlds. The far right treat you like a race traitor. That you should care more for your 'own culture and race' and be more 'proud'. While many people on the far left will blame you of appropriating and fetishizing other cultures.

So you can either give up what you love, or never be able to fully please either side. And you'll always be stuck in the middle of these ideologies.

To be honest, I don't see what's wrong with Muko Kuseki or Ambiguously Brown, but then maybe I don't fully understand what both of them mean. I mean, actually, there are brown Japanese anime characters, too. Not just ambiguously pale ones. Like Ayukawa Miyuki from Basquash, who is black but has a Japanese name.

In the end, I think people of all races can be Japanese. If a white person or a black person is born in Japan, they should be treated as Japanese. And there's nothing wrong with Japanese characters who look white or black, or pale or brown.

I would love to show you the posts. Problem is that they are MANY years old and most threads that aren't necro'd frequently get culled. These Fora have had a LOT of cleansings over the years, I don't even know what's left or how I would even find my old convos with Ukon.

I saw the problem initially until it started looking like a lot of willful (or even the desire to see) erasure of every other race and culture in the world. I remember a lot of my conversations I went through a lot of trouble trying to emphasize the diversity of the world at large and just how many more people and different kinds of people there are and how awful it would be to see the eridcation or deprecation of them in favor of a few, especially if that few was a really pale ideal.

I get Mukokuseki was just "The characters are Japanese it just so happens we interpret them as white because culture, context, many other factors, etc etc." but when I was in discussions with Ukonkivi about it it always sounded racist.

And Ambiguously Brown always felt like cheating. Like an animated version of But Not Too Black.

There are a lot of people who fall into the Ambiguously Brown category in real life though. Even if they're just some white person with a really deep tan.

It's true that lighter skinned black people get privileged over darker skinned black people. Black children often even bully darker skinned black children on playgrounds. Which is really, really sad and tragic.

Though that doesn't make Ambiguously Brown bad, it means that Ambiguously Brown characters shouldn't be the only brown characters. There are Ambiguously Brown people in real life.

I'm happy that anime is starting to have more characters that were supposed to be black. Like Ayukawa Miyuki. I don't think she's supposed to be Ambiguously Brown?

I love me Durarara. Simon Brezhnev is one of the better character in that show. And he is clearly depicted as someone from subsaharan descent.