So if Cliche Storm is YMMV....: Cliche Storm

I also think Cliché Storm could stand to be rewritten to be less negative (some steps have been taken in that direction already). Some works (like Harry Potter, The Belgariad) are Cliche Storms, but a lot of people still think very highly of them.

Troperrific should stay meaning any work with many tropes. That page is too popular, and has been used too long that way, to redefine it.

On the other hand, Cliché Storm is The Same But Done Badly, it needs to be turned into a redirect.

edited 12th Jun '11 12:29:19 PM by EternalSeptember

Bump.

I'm in favor of getting rid of Cliche Storm and just making Troperiffic a non-YMMV trope and it gets Cliché Storm's examples.

This page is a mess. Many of the examples are just copied from Cliché Storm; Troperiffic is nothing more that "Cliché Storm Done Well". I don't think we need this - and we already have Guilty Pleasure as a place to Gush About Cliche Storms You Like...

I'm still for a merge that isn't in the subjective bin. A work that rips from a lot of sources isn't subjective, that's just how some people tell their stories.

That wouldn't make it like Strictly formula. That's about shows that keep rely on the same pattern as they go on, not necessarily someone else's already established pattern.

Bumping this.... so Star Ocean The Last Hope has Cliche Storm in its description shouldnt it be replaced with like Troperiffic? Or should we have a neutral one. Because that really comes off as Flame Bait.

I also think we need one nuetral trope for both of them.

edited 26th Jul '11 9:02:27 PM by DrStarky

Just make it clear in the trope description that:

Lots of Clichés Played Straight: Cliché Storm.

Lots of Tropes Played With: Troperiffic.

There's a clear difference on the way tropes are played, and between a Cliché and a Trope, so I don't understand why people want these pages merged. Instead, the examples that don't apply would be cut from both pages.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:03:49 PM by Vytron

Agreed 100%

Not exactly Cliché Storm is played straight and Bad the name itself says that too. Just make this YMMV and make a new neutral one or rename.

I want to say Strictly Type or Tropes By The Numbers or something.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:36:14 PM by Raso

While the current differentiation may have value judgments attached, it doesn't need to, and I think "work has many tropes played straight" and "work has many tropes played with" are two separate things. I'd be in favor of doing a split along those lines, although Cliché Storm should not be kept as a name due to the negative connotations of "cliche".

If we create a neutral version of this page, then I don't see any reason to keep the current Cliché Storm at all, YMMV or otherwise. It's a clear License To Whine.

edited 3rd Aug '11 8:37:01 PM by nrjxll

I agree with Vytron.

I guess your right there and you are right about getting rid of Cliche too he'll are own front page says tropes are not Cliches.

Strictly Type or Tropes By The Numbers are really my only two ideas for rename sadly and even then they still have the "this trope is bad" sound to them.

I think that part of the issue with Cliche Storm is that it becomes almost useless when you're talking about works Older than Feudalism and the like. Even when restricted to more modern works - Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is very cliche, and everyone knows about the plot-twist at the end, but to a reader contemporary with when it was published, it was something new and different.

Of course, in modern times, practically everything can be said to be a cliche storm, simply because everything's been done before. I don't know if getting rid of the trope is valid, but it does seem like the sort of thing that you'd say to discredit a work that you don't like.

But you see, it is possible that playing with tropes be subjective. It is possible to even groan at them, especially when they're done so bluntly.

Relatively, I can also use the argument to for Troperiffic to be objective for Cliché Storm: It's a show/medium full of cliches played straight. Nothing subjective.

edited 5th Aug '11 2:47:33 AM by Ookamikun

what. Read Cliché....

edited 5th Aug '11 2:51:57 AM by Raso

They are basically positive vs negative on paper, although given the nature of Flame Bait anything negative is going to spawn a lot more arguments. I would support a merge, but if we can figure a way to keep them distinctive I'll try and help with that as well.

In practice Troperiffic is about embracing the archetypes and having fun with them. That doesn't necessarily mean formulaic or that it has no surprises, the entire Star Wars saga is filled with imagination and variations on The Hero's Journey core. Cliché Storm is when it is unrecognizable from any of the other stories in the same format. Eragon (both movie and book) was blasted for not just following the Heros Journey but also A New Hope step by step (Later books were praised for breaking out of the "Fantasy Star Wars" mold).

Of course what it should be and how tropers use it are often two seperate things.

I never said it was a good thing. There's a reason we have Not A Subversion. I simply claim that "work plays with many tropes" and "work plays many tropes straight" should not be covered on the same page - there is a difference. Any value judgments about that difference aren't relevant for our purposes and should be left out.

Our own home page says cliche and Trope are not the same thing.... Hence the rename.

Why would you like to rename Cliché Storm to get rid of the negative connotations when even the top part of that page talks about how it's bad when a work is predictable because it's made of copied and pasted parts of previous works? And only then it says it's not always a bad thing because it can be worked out.

If anything, I think that this should be closed and a Trope Repair Shop opened for Cliché Storm, since Troperiffic seems fine.

I actually agree with this. It's Cliché Storm that's the issue, not Troperiffic.

It might be better to refocus this thread then start a new one, though.

Could probably just change the page alert of this thread to that.

Done.

edited 31st Aug '11 6:27:45 PM by Raso