British Politics Thread

See also.

What's precedent ever done for us?

I think DBL's point (sorry if I'm putting words into your mouth) was that people accused the BBC of having a left wing bias exactly because it was giving everyone airtime and the left was using it to shout louder.

Besides, the best way to discredit someone foolish is to let them talk (while trying to shut them up might make it look like they're being hard done by while simultaneously helping them hide the stupid). Works every time.

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But it doesn't give the left more airtime, it gives it less. And that problem gets even worse once we go beyond the centre-right centre-(kinda)left of Labour against the Tories. Look at how much coverage UKIP gets, now compare that to the Green Party, the right get far more coverage largely because they shout a lot louder when they don't.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

The difference is that UKIP see officially classed as a major party - along with Lib Lab Con and the Snp. The greens are not. Thus BBC are legally obliged to give UKIP similar coverage labels to the others.

I don't know how that decision was made or agree with it but it remains a fact.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

Who decided that UKIP as are a major party but the Greens are not? The Greens have a seat in Parliament, more ME Ps than the Lib Dems, 2 London Assembly seats and 160 councillor, why the hell are they not classified as a major party but UKIP (even pre the euro election) are?

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Like I said, they're loud.

"Yup. That tasted purple."

As I said I don't know and it's not practical for me to look it up right now. But I will tomorrow if I'm not beaten to it.

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

It will be interesting to see.

News

Newspaper Round-up:

• Carswell UKIP defection, Pitt-Jolie wedding and Bake Off 'whobunnit' in headlines

Rotherham:

• Rotherham child abuse: Police commissioner quits Labour — instead of resigning his PCC position.
• Rotherham child abuse scandal: Ex-children's head 'must quit'
• Rotherham child abusers 'brazen', says ex-care home worker

Other news:

• Sick boy Ashya King taken from Southampton hospital ward by parents
• New hospital food rules introduced
• UKIP's Roger Lord to challenge Douglas Carswell for Clacton
• Scottish independence: Referendum votes 'for sale' on eBay
• 'Statistically significant' rise in net migration to UK
• Britain First not authorised to use image of Crown — of course, that won't stop them...
• NATO protesters open peace camp at Newport's Tredegar Park — I wonder what their stance on ISIS or Ukraine is?
• GCHQ protest due over surveillance case
• Tesco shares drop on profit warning
• Concerns over Thatcher's commitment to Anglo Irish Agreement revealed

Keep Rolling On

Yeah, I can sort of see why Lord is pissed about Clacton. 'Dude, I got here first.' More detailed article on that particular aspect of the story.

What's precedent ever done for us?

UKIP-watch Returns...

Eurosceptic Tory MPs rule out further UKIP defections — and here are the eight Stuart Wheeler may have had discussions with...

UK terrorist threat level raised to 'severe'

• Shawforth man, 85, suspected of driving car at 81-year-old — Terror of a different sort.

edited 29th Aug '14 6:26:39 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On

Labour MP Jim Murphy has suspended his Scotland-wide tour ahead of the independence referendum, citing "co-ordinated abuse" from "Yes" voters.

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Re: UKIP as a major party.

And another It was an Ofcom decision based on "significant aggregate support". Interestingly, it affects England, Wales and GB generally but not Scotland only broadcasts due to UKIP's near-total lack of support here (yes they got an MSP but the PR system allows for that with quite a few minor parties having one).

My name is Addy. Please call me that instead of my username.

So I've been trying to got into British Politics. Read British Newspapers and watched Yes Minister and The Thick Of It. Am thoroughly confused.

Are the media really that important? Can the freaking Daily Mail, a Nazi paper, get a Labour minister resigned just by saying he's teetering on the edge? Do they really get hounded over the slightest mistake? Are things like "this might be embarassing" or "this goes against tradition" such almighty hyper-compelling drives as they are portrayed?

edited 29th Aug '14 12:47:50 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

British print media really are that powerful, I'd guess that most people in the UK gets their news off a paper rather than TV. They have massive reach and influence, I'm on an iPad (I miss my laptop) so I can't go into detail about how much stock politicians out in the opinions of the likes of Murdoch because of his newspaper empire and how close they get to him as a result, but it's bad.

Just look at their circulation figures, then compare that to the number of people who tend to vote at a general election, you'll quickly see why British papers are accredited with so much power.

As for almighty phrases, I doubt it, keep in mind that while Yes Minister and The Thick Of It are both very well researched (up to have people within the civil service at the time helpings them write stuff) they are both comedy shows and thus do have some artistic licence.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

I guess there's also the English steretype of "the sheer embarrassment of being alive"; a very, very high sensitivity to public perception.

Are the Liberal Democrats more to the Left than Labour, really? Why are they so popular with students?

Also, I've discovered recently a very disturbing fact. The unofficial national anthem of England... is about Jerusalem?

And then there's the "British Nazi Party", whose logo looks like this:

edited 29th Aug '14 1:06:36 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Lib Dems are both to the left and right of Labour, they're to the left socially (hence the Democrat part of their name) but to the right economically (hence the Liberal (as in Libertarian) part of their name), this is because they're the rest of a merger between the old Liberal Party and the remnants of the Whig party (I think).

Also for why students like them, they don't. Students used to like the Lib Dems because they are socially progressive, underdogs and generally nice. Now students hate them, what with many of them making personal signed pledges to never vote to increase tuition fees that they then ignored on they got a chance at power.

Edit: The BNP are a bigger joke than ever now, they've lost all relevance with their members generally defecting to UKIP (who are almost as crazy but a fair bit smarter and better at keep it under wraps).

edited 29th Aug '14 1:09:40 PM by SilasW

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

This happens all the friggin' time everwhere. "put me in office, I'll do what you want!" "Now that I'm in office, I'll do what I want, and you'll keep me in power because the alternative is worse! AHAHAHAHA!"

Don't you have any party pushing for Delegative Democracy?

edited 29th Aug '14 1:29:48 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Also, the Lib Dems are an awkward mishmash of old-school socialists and 'Orange Bookers', free-market-uber-alles classical liberals. The Orange Bookers are currently in charge, and many of the voters thought they'd be getting the socialists (not least because the Dems were gaining ground as a protest party for the left because of Labour's shift to the right during Tony Blair's time in office), so they ain't happy.

The BNP have essentially split into the political fascists (mostly UKIP, along with libertarians, paleoconservatives, and anyone else they can grab), and the drunken street warriors (used to be the EDL were the main recipients of BNP defectors, now Britain First, a group with close links to loyalist militias in Northern Ireland, is in the ascendancy). As Silas points out, the latter are a bit of a joke (if still surprisingly dangerous sometimes), whilst the former could be trouble, particularly because of the direction they're pushing the Overton Window in.

Here is the deal with 'Jerusalem'. It's based on a myth that Jesus once visited the British Isles, and expresses the hope that the Second Coming, the 'new Jerusalem', will happen there.

edited 29th Aug '14 1:27:23 PM by Iaculus

What's precedent ever done for us?

... Do I have to read that Orange Book to understand what these people are about? Any valuable ideas in there?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Basically, they believe in the power of the free market to enact positive social change over that of Big Government. Here's a summary. That's kind of a big deal for the socialist protest voters, who thought they were voting for a party that would stand against stuff like the dismantling of social safety nets, the outsourcing of important tasks to morally-dubious megacorp contractors like Atos, Serco, and G4S, and the gradual privatisation of the NHS by the other parties.

What's precedent ever done for us?

Breaking manifesto promises is what happens all the time, but that's not what got students pissed. It's not that the party said "this is what we will do if we get into power" it's that individual candidates went round making personal promises about how they would personally vote, and they used this personal claim to get a lot of votes from students, and additionally have for a long time gone on be bout how they aren't like other politicians but are better than them, then they went and did something worse.

this isn't the party putting out a TV add saying "I believe this and if get into power will do it" it's individuals going out on the street with a big placard saying "I [candidate] personally promise to never vote to raise tuition fees if I am elected to Parliament, so vote for me".

edited 29th Aug '14 2:10:52 PM by SilasW

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Ah, It's Personal. I see. I'd be very personally pissed too if I was played like that.

Again, with Fluid Democracy, this shit woudn't happen. [It's my pet Solution To Everything]

What the fuck...

edited 29th Aug '14 2:12:54 PM by TheHandle

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

The Lib Dem vote is pretty much gone now anyway, they lost all but one of their European seats at the European elections, they are that hated now. They use to have 11 of the 73 (then 72) euro seats, they now have 1.

Edit: as for delegate democracy as opposed to representative, it runs into some issues. I'd be happy to talk about it (and other forms of democracy) further but I don't think this is the right thread (do we have a political theory thread?). Sufficient to say no major UK party wants to shift the system apart from the Lid Dems, who want proportional representation.

edited 29th Aug '14 2:21:06 PM by SilasW

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

The Lib Dems are to the left of Post-Blair Labour, though not to hard to be that- though the Orange-bookers are neo-Blairites, who reason that is the way he got into power. The odd thing is Labour leapt on the 'Student Fees' thing, despite 1) Having introduced the bloody things, and 2) have offered no alternative: they are not going to back to the previous 'free' system, yet won't deal with the fact Uni's need more money.

Feel sorry for Cleggy -the left all hate him, salivate over neo-thatcherite Miliband, while the Tories all moan how left wing the Lib-dems have made the Coalition.

Meanwhile the Greens are the only party who are opposed to TTIP, but the message is smothered.

BBC: George Galloway taken to hospital after street attack

Wonder who's going to get blamed for this.

"Yup. That tasted purple."