Can this be more specific : Black And Nerdy

Maybe there was some trope decay or something but this trope essentially reads and seems to be used for any intelligent black character.

While there's a of similarities between characters for characters that fit the stereotypically Nerd depiction. Overall, the examples are all over the place. You've got character are typical unsociable nerds, and you've character that are significantly higher in the social ladder. You've got characters who are either and/or a Token Minority, Black Best Friend and the main protagonist. You've got character's that are clearly benefiting from positive discrimination and some that aren't. Also the difference of intelligence between some of the characters is pretty steep.

Now if this trope dealt with cases where it's obvious that a Black nerdy character is befitting from Positive Discrimination or works where a Black nerdy character has his race questioned or brought up because of nerdiness then I could probably see it. However, if this is supposed to be just for any intelligent black character then that's not gonna fly, least with me.

I think it make be a good idea to look at some specific examples to see what we should do if anything.

I Thought It Meant/A-C: Just references the source of the trope name.

Troper Tales/Acceptable Lifestyle Targets: Troper tales, I think it works.

Accidental Athlete: I am not familiar with the source of the example and the example itself is not very in-depth.

Adorkable: Refers to Urkel, which fits the trope as far as I can tell.

Algebra The Easy Way: I am not sure, but I think this example looks like it may be an example of trope decay since I do not see any "nerd" characteristics referenced aside from intelligence.

Literature/Android: Well, it says the person is a "drama geek," so on face I would say this is not an example of misuse.

Characters/Angel: Character is mentioned as fitting this trope because he mentions comic books. I think this is probably a weak example.

Anyone But Me: I was unable to tell from the example alone.

A Piece Of My Heart: Trope just used to reference a character who is black and intelligent.

Characters/Archie Comics: Character is a comics geek and artist but not a loser. I think that fits the current trope description pretty well because of the lack of apparent flaws of the character.

Characters/Arthur: Character is intelligent, but given that he is a bearlike person and not really a human and thus not necessarily black, I think this may be misuse of the trope.

Asian And Nerdy: This is a related trope.

A Xavier B: This is former a troper page.

Characters/Baccano: There is no elaboration on the page as why the character fits this trope aside from him being The Smart Guy, so I suppose this is possible misuse.

Bad Boys: I see no evidence of misuse here.

Barack Obama: I guess it fits, but being a Real Life example, I do not think it really demonstrates whether or not the trope is being misused.

Batman Beyond: Character is mentioned as having good computer skills. I am guessing this is not misuse, but I am not sure.

Better Off Ted: No real elaboration on why character fits the trope so I am not sure if there is misuse here.

Characters/Bionic Six: This trope is referenced in terms of intelligence, but without elaboration I am not sure if it fits.

Black And Nerdy: This is the trope itself.

Playing With/Black Best Friend: Trope just referenced without elaboration.

Black Best Friend: Example on page seems to fit trope.

Black Sol: This was a former troper page.

Blankman: The example seems to fit the trope from what I can tell.

Bliss Stage First Act: Character described as somewhat fitting the trope because of science fiction interests.

Bliss Stage Love Is Your Weapon: Same example as above.

Characters/Bloom County: Seems to fit the trope.

Based on those examples, I would say there is some misuse of the sort you mentioned, but I think that given the simplistic nature of the trope name, it is going to be difficult to do much about that misuse aside from just taking it out wherever you find it.

I am not sure what other solutions we could pursue. I think the description communicates the idea of the trope well, but from what I can tell the problem is really people just including the trope based on its name rather than its description. I am not really sure what to do about that.

edited 25th Apr '11 1:28:31 PM by LouieW

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

My issue with the trope is not really the misuse but rather the trope itself. If this trope was a racial stereotype then it would be a valid trope. Stereotypes works as tropes because the character traits and/or personality is largely influenced by general assumptions about that character's race. However, this trope isn't a racial stereotype, it's basically a non-stereotypical role for a Black character to have. I don't see why that needs pointing out or is an intentional plot convention when the character's races has no connection to his nerdiness.

Basically it's a subversion of the implied racial stereotype that black people aren't tech savvy or educated. Which is indeed perhaps a bit too broad.

Not A Subversion

A subversion would actually require some sort of setup the make you think the Black character is not tech savvy or educated, only to reveal that they are.

The set-up is either that they're black and we haven't seen their interests yet or that we'll soon be meeting a nerdy type character and they turn out to be black. It is a subversion, it just plays out really quickly.

I don't wanna mince your word but that's like saying that any fiction black character is inherently a stereotype and anything that does not fit the black stereotype is somehow subverting it.

That is exactly what I'm saying. That's the nature of the trope, for better or worse.

edited 25th Apr '11 3:53:19 PM by Clarste

well then that's not a trope. You can not subvert a non-existent trope in a piece of work.

Well, I'd imagine that it's either a Dead Horse Trope or a Dead Unicorn Trope. Either way, that subversion is the entire premise of Black and Nerdy. If we think that doesn't exist then we should cut it for just being a random overlap of two character traits.

I would guess that this, like Asian Airhead is a trope that resulted from a subversion becoming very common. Originally, the point was to subvert a stereotype, but over time, the subversion became the norm (in the sense that when a work has a nerd character, they will often be black).

Similarly, I read an article recently talking about having a black Norse deity in the Thor film. Basically, the movie The Norseman included a black viking for sort of affirmative action purposes, and due to Follow the Leader, it wouldn't feel right now to have a film about Norseman that didn't have black vikings.

edited 25th Apr '11 4:12:58 PM by Jordan

Hodor

Asian Airhead is Not A Subversion

"Remember that just not doing a trope isn't the same thing as subverting it. Unfortunately, most tropers tend to forget that."

That is straight from the Subverted Trope page.

Unless a piece of work has lead the audience to believe that a Asian character is in fact a nerd, Dragon Lady or any other racial stereotype associated with that specific Asian culture, then defining a character as an Asian Airhead is not subversion.

If it wasn't a subversion it wouldn't be a trope at all. It'd just be an Asian character who happened to be an airhead. Same with Black and Nerdy.

I would be fine with both trope pages being cut or re-evaluated. If a basis of both tropes is that a character of a certain race is playing a role that is outside the stereotypes of their race, then their race is no significance to that role. If their race is of no significance then it is an extremely flimsy and condescending reasoning for the existence of a trope.

Well, the implication is that the author intentionally created the character with the intent to subvert a stereotype.

Unless there's a Word of God to back that up then that is complete and utter assumption.

captainpat,

Sorry, I guess I interpreted what you said about trope decay to mean that you thought there was misuse.

Personally, I think that if we rework the trope we should focus on this part of the description.

While I agree that simply being black and intelligent is probably not a trope, I think the idea that a character like this is treated in such a way because of racial reasons, combined with what Clarste said makes it a trope.

I am not totally sure about that though.

"irhgT nm0w tehre might b ea lotof th1nmgs i dont udarstannd, ubt oim ujst goinjg to keepfollowing this pazth i belieove iN !!!!!1 d

Captain, the set up for a subversion does not have to be in the work itself. If a trope is played so frequently in media that the audience expects it, than a character that is the complete opposite of that expectation, even if they don't lampshade it, is still a subversion. The common perception of black characters in media was for a long time that they are big, dumb, uncultured and violent. When this trope first emerged it didn't need to be lampshaded because everyone knew that blacks were like that. That said, it's now starting to grow past the mocking subversion stage and into a positive role-model trope instead.

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

Nowhere in the Subverted Trope or the Not A Subversion does it say anything like that.

straight from the Subverted Trope page

If there is no deliberate set-up there's no subversion. The way you've described it is wholly dependent on the audience to set up the expectation, they can't do that. Unless you can prove that by making a character black, a creator somehow set up the expectation that this character is unintelligent and/or not tech savvy, then simply making him the opposite is not a subversion of those supposed expectations.

edited 26th Apr '11 9:54:54 AM by captainpat

Actually, that's exactly what I'm saying. Hollywood for a long time gave us the set up that if a character was black, they were going to be a big dumb idiot. How was this set up? Years of media appearances. Culture can set up a trope for subversion. Culture can give us exactly the sort of expectation that the Subversion page calls for.

edited 26th Apr '11 10:09:15 AM by shimaspawn

Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick

I'm not so sure about this where there's nothing in the work itself to suggest that black people are automatically less well-educated or less likely to have intellectual interests than white people, especially combined with the fact that such views aren't as acceptable in society generally as they once were.

Perhaps the point is that Black and Nerdy is more of a trope of historical significance. If a guy in a TV show now is black and a nerd, it's not such an issue that he's black (e.g. Moss in The IT Crowd).

"Well, it's a lifestyle"

Something else, besides the uneducated stereotype, there's also a stereotype of blacks being cool, and the nerdy part is used as a subversion of that.

That part actually does tend to be lampshaded- see for instance Gus on Psych and Turk of Scrubs (although the latter is your "cool nerd" type).

Hodor

Which culture? Because the way you're describing, it would depend entirely on you're audience's culture and which again would depend on the audience to set up for the trope.

Also the Subverted Trope page specify states that the creator of the work must set up the trope.

.

Other than assumptions you have no backing to prove that the creator is deliberatively making a character black to make the audience expect that he is a stereotype.

Then that should be a useful notes page or something of the sort. If it's not an issue that said character is black, why would I trope a trope for it?

I'd be totally fine if the page was a subversion of the cool or uneducated black stereotype and by stereotype I mean the work has to actually setup the character to be those stereotypes only to reveal that he's a nerd

edited 26th Apr '11 10:48:16 AM by captainpat

If a character on a TV show mentions that a Jewish man is going to be coming in from Israel that day, most viewers are going to be expecting an Ashkenazi Jew, a few might expect a Mizrahi Jew, almost no one is going to expect Abatte Barihun, famed Jazz musician and an Ethiopian Jew, who now resides in Israel.

The author is not required to set up every stereotype by hand, some are caused by the society you live in and media bias. If a black High School athlete is introduced, what sport do you think he's going to play? When it turns out he's on the ice hockey team, your expectations, caused by 99% of popular media portrayals and the common culture, have been subverted, despite the author never once mentioning any other sport.

If you look at those two examples and say, "Well I wouldn't be surpried, or have had any expectations at all.", then I gotta say you're part of a vast minority.

edited 26th Apr '11 12:45:15 PM by Daremo

Creed of the Happy Pessimist:Always expect the worst. Then, when it happens, it was only what you expected. All else is a happy surprise.

Those aren't trope first of all, and you didn't subvert anything.

You said a Jewish was coming from Israel, I expected a Jewish man to come from Israel, and a Jewish came from Israel.

You said a black High School athlete was introduced, I expected a black High School athlete to be introduced and a black High School athlete was introduced.

Did you say anything to specifying the race of the Jewish man or the sport of the Black athletic? No.

You're assuming you did, despite the fact that I may be a Black Jewish person who knows many famous black Jewish men that come from Israel, or I may be a hockey player whose been playing on a predominately black ice hockey team for a good portion of my life.

Regardless of the case you're assuming that you know my expectations when you don't actually know. So you don't know whether you subverted anything because you don't know what type expectation is being built since it's entirely dependent your audience.