Split: Mordor

When I was doing this ykttw, I was told that Mordor already covered it, which surprised me, as I always thought it was a fantasy trope. It turns out it has two types. I was wondering if we could split off the second.

I like the idea of a split because I think using a heavily polluted city as a "land of evil" sends a significantly different message than using a bleak, dark land for the same purpose. I am not quite sure if that made sense. I just think that the second type of Mordor is not only not the same as the actual Mordor, but that its more environmentalist message suggests a new type of evil in a modern context.

edited 23rd Apr '11 3:17:13 PM by LouieW

Yeah, fantasy lands are more likely influanced by a Fisher King, in magically expressing the evil, while modern scenes show Humans Are Bastards through environmental damage.

So would my ykttw cover the second type or not?

I think it would.

Bumping to see if others agree on splitting.

Yeah, split it.

OTOH, large parts of T Lot R come out very strongly against industrialism (and many other features of modernity). It's maybe not made explicit in Mordor itself, but it's made explicit in Isengard and even more in how the Shire is described when Frodo et al returns.

I'm not saying a split is unneeded, but there needs to be a relatively clear demarcation between the two tropes.

It would be potentially pretty cool if we could call the industrial version Isengard.

Some might mistake that for where a powerful former good guy lives. Plus I still have that ykttw listed in the OP, so if you have a better name, let me know in the replies.

As for what Tolkien wrote, his views were not uncommon, which is part of what make the trope.

edited 29th Apr '11 12:25:02 PM by DragonQuestZ

I don't think it would work. As could as it would be, it is too much ground to potential misuse. I believe the vast majority of readers don't know the origin of Isengard. Isengard should be mentioned in the new trope, though.

Anyway, I agree with the split, obviously.

Isn't type 2 pretty much exactly the same thing as Gaia's Lament?

Well that trope is more on a planetary scale, while a nightmarish industrial land is not only variable in area, it also is a bit more active in the industrial nightmare. Wall-E would be gaia's lament, but not type II of this.

There is now a page action crowner for this trope here. I was not quite sure how to describe the split, so if someone else wants to edit that option a bit, feel free to do so.

I think it could use a split, or at least a example devide between the two types.

Crowner has been open several months with one option having a clear lead. Should just go for it, I think.

Considering that Mordor was in large part based on urban industrial Britain...

The option to split has strong support. Did anyone take action? The main page still reads two types

Calling the crowner.

I am guessing that Mordor type 1 will keep the name Mordor because that seems to describe the fantasy examples *

That leaves the type 2 examples needing a new page and a new name for that page. Polluted Wasteland is one name I can think of for type 2 Mordor examples, but I am pretty sure other people can probably think of better ones than that. I figure that once we get a couple of names we can start up an alternative titles crowner for the new trope.

Alternatively, I guess we could do all of this in YKTTW. However, I think that it will probably be easier to move wicks if we work things out here instead.

edited 19th Nov '11 12:18:43 PM by LouieW

Polluted Wasteland would be good, but is a bit specific. If using that, I recommend making Nuclear Wasteland a redirect.

Either of those would work, but I'd even be supportive of something similar to Futuristic Wasteland or Sci Fi Wasteland. The generic-ism of these titles would cover the nuclear/pollution routes as well as other possibilities.

I like Polluted Wasteland with the variants as redirects.

Now that we have some name ideas for the Mordor type 2 trope, there is now an alternative titles crowner for it here. Feel free to keep adding titles as you see fit.

Thanks for everyone's help with this trope.

The problem with Futuristic Wasteland is that it implies that it takes place in the future, while there are some science fiction stories that take place in the past. (Star Wars comes to mind.)

Polluted Wasteland and Sci Fi Wasteland are a bit more indicative.