What Does It Really Mean To Be "Strong And Feminine"?

Does it mean merely being a woman who has masculine traits? Does it mean using your wits despite being weak and whatnot? Does it mean being vulnerable (and what does "Being Vulnerable" mean, anyway?) despite having a strong facade? Or, perhaps, does it mean embracing your feminine traits while doing a lot of the dirty work?

I'm asking under the presumption that "Feminine" means "Female", as it rolls off my tongue easier than "Strong and Female".

Means she's a woman who does what she wants because she wants to do it, not because everyone else told her do so?

Then again, I can apply the same thing to a man, so one big meh to this discussion.

Lady of War.

It just means she has realized that a quite large part of the gender role is just large randomly selected traits.

Like underwater basket weaving?

One thing that bugs me about a lot of so many "Strong Feminine Characters" is that many of them are always in Serious Business mode.

Depends on what one counts as feminine traits and whether or not one sees vulnerability and weakness as necessarily feminine. Because a motherly image could be easily associated with strength, like with the Mama Bear trope, or how the Yamato Nadeshiko trope mentions that type of girl as having a strong will, even if she's not physically strong. There are different kinds of strength, too, physical strength is the most obvious one, but there's also the strong-willed type (ex. a character who is brave and faces her fears, or someone who doesn't give up easily) and also mental strength (intelligence).

A strong female character is one who has agency within the plot and affects the plot through her actions, just like a strong male character is.

A strong feminine character is one who displays traits that are associated with women, and still does the above. Need not be female.

I've noticed that arguments over this usually involve the assumption that a strong female character is a positive role model, and the assumption that being a strong character means attacking rather than supporting standard patriarchy. Carmen Sandiego is a good example of why the former isn't necessarily true. As for the latter, Marle in Chrono Trigger is an Action Girl who fights alongside Crono, but she's never allowed to be more "spunky" than a '90s audience would accept from a love interest, and the fact that she rather than the Adorkable Lucca marries Crono could be seen as an indirect blow to feminism. (I personally would also argue that Marle is a badly-written female character, but that's a separate issue from strength.)

While we're at it, let's also address the issue of whether a strong female character needs to be feminine. Ayla, another Chrono Trigger character, is the second-most-butch female character I've ever encountered in a video game, ranking only behind a shaven-headed, tattooed ex-convict who frequently shouts 'I will destroy you!'. I think in some ways she could still be considered a positive figure for girls (even if it is made clear early on that there's no way in hell she's a possibility as Crono's love interest.) (The aforementioned ex-convict may or may not count as a strong character, since she's ultimately reliant on the hero to fix her psychological issues—I'll leave that debate to someone else.)

Eh? [confuzzled]

How?

...

To answer the topic question, you can be strong and feminine by having an edge and speaking your mind freely while gushing about cute things and having a My Little Pony avatar. In short, I'm the role-model for feminism.

(and, going into Sincerity Mode here, does anyone else get the feeling I've said that before?)

Someone who doesn't fall under the Real Women Never Wear Dresses trope, nor the Faux Action Girl (this does not mean she needs to be an action girl, just not a faux one) trope, nor has the personality of being "the girl" and is a character with flaws and strengths just like everyone else.

It means you're Sailor Jupiter.

Alternatively: Whatever the fuck you want.

edited 21st Mar '11 10:14:12 AM by Aondeug

To me "strong female" always sounded like a tautology. The fact that westerners don't agree is unnerving, especially since my country is being invaded by western pop culture.

It means that you are an individual and not subject to any sort of socialc ontract based on your sex.

A muscular housewife.

To me "strong and feminine" means being respectable, something that very few female characters pull off in most works. Using sexuality to answer problems, excessive fanservice (they're supposed to be characters, not porn stars), being emotional in a way that makes no sense (not that emotions are bad), repeatedly causing more problems than she solves, getting a more interesting character killed by being incompetent, or simply being of little worth beyond fanservice, these are all things that I consider not respectable.

To me, respectable is a female character who is important in that she is competent. She has emotions but can control them enough to not be an idiot. She wears clothing that looks good without revealing much, clothing that makes sense and allows the audience to focus on the character without constantly having "'dat ass" being center stage and not the character. And most importantly, she does not use sexuality or seduction to answer her problems. A female character who meets those criteria is one I consider respectable. Sadly, these are quite rare.

And yes, I am a man. I do not think that female characters should be degraded for sexual purposes. I also believe that female characters should be able to be every bit as smart and tough as a male character and not have to sacrifice personality or dignity to do so.

edited 21st Mar '11 5:35:58 PM by LordIronHat

I thought she was a dude.

To me, it means a character who has physical or behavioral traits we generally recognize as feminine, but still kicks ass because she's figured out that generally doesn't inhibit asskicking.

Nuh-uh! Well she still needs that surgery or something, but...um...TOTALLY A BABE.

Strong and feminine?

Farmers' wives. Fisherwomen. My fiancee.

Anyone who can run a household effectively while their other half is off doing something stupidly dangerous gets my vote. I get to do it sometimes on my days off (shifts. woot.) and it's bloody difficult.

@ Moe Dantes: The thing about Marle is that she's an evolution of the old Distressed Damsel Shallow Female Love Interest whom the hero rescues and then marries, and who's basically treated as a trophy rather than a person. She's given combat abilities, and a teensy bit of Rebellious Princess syndrome, but she still has basically the same (lack of) personality, and the same dependence on the main character. Lucca, in addition to being a longtime friend of Crono's who has a decent amount of chemistry with him, is intelligent, capable, and heroic even without Crono's help, and even gets the opportunity to rescue him at one point in the game. There are some signs that she's in love with Crono, and a lot of players wished he'd return the affection, but he still shacks up with bland, conventionally feminine Marle at the end of the game, sending the message that girls shouldn't be intelligent and capable if they want to be loved. (Mind you, Crono's pretty bland too, so if you wanted you could argue that he and Marle deserve each other, and Lucca's better off staying an independent woman.)

Lucca/Frog OTP

Lucca was probably closer to a strong feminine character than Marle. Sure she was shy, but she kicked ass, got things in gear when it needed gearing, didn't piss and moan about things, and IIRC she was the one who didn't lose her head when Crono died.

edited 21st Mar '11 7:40:25 PM by Pykrete

Comparing her to Lucca is, I think, reading feminism into something that has nothing to do with it. I noticed back in high school that many people, when seeking romance, preferred strangers over people they actually knew. One of my friends hung out with plenty of women, any of whom he could've pursued a relationship with, and yet he wanted this one girl who was outside his circle. This is kind of common in fiction as well—this was Simba's first objection to marrying Nala in The Lion King, as well as the reason neither Harry nor Ron asked Hermione to the prom in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (well they do, but only as a last resort, and Hermione calls them on it).

In any case I think Marle is getting an unfair shake here. Keep in mind that Marle was the first person who was willing to test Lucca's teleportation device when everyone else was freaking scared of the thing, was quickly able to size up and take advantage of the situation when she was transported into the past, disrupts two trials in her father's castle (the second time far more theatrically), is willing to take off into an unknown time portal despite all the shit she had just been through, quickly adjusts to the post-apocalyptic future, is in fact the person who talks Chrono into saving the world, and also pretty much spearheads the mission to bring Chrono back to life.

And there's something to be said for the fact that she's going on this arduous journey and having showdowns with giant space porcupines when, you know, she could've just gone to Tiffany's or something. She knows she's in for a world of pain, but she goes through with it. She is, pretty much, "strong and feminine."

"Strong" = "Being oneself, not bound by conservative social stigma AND feminist stigma alike."

"Feminine" = Self explanatory.

Does that make sense?

Bingo.

Also, a woman is strong in exactly the same way a man (or anyone else) is strong.

Including body odor. So maybe being "strong" is overrated.

Being like Bayonetta.