I don't think that trope means what you think it does: The Paragon Always Rebels

The Paragon Always Rebels' title refers to The Paragon, it even wicks to it... Thing is, the trope The Paragon and the way "The Paragon" is used in The Paragon Always Rebels is not the same. This lack of consistency is something we should avoid. We should make sure The Paragon is always used to mean what it says under The Paragon.

• The Paragon: A hero/messiah who teaches by example. This somewhat fits the definition of the word paragon "A model of excellence and perfection".

• The Paragon in The Paragon Always Rebels: The #2 on the side of good. The right hand man of the Big Good (Think of a good version of The Dragon).

edited 15th Mar '11 10:57:27 PM by Ghilz

I think we've got a The Dragon for good guys on Number Two. Maybe.

If not, we should probably have one.

edited 16th Mar '11 12:04:23 AM by Deboss

The Champion seems somewhat close (but not really).

The Paradragon Always Rebels Sorry.

Why Always? I doubt the Big Good's #2 goes bad in so many stories that we would be surprised when he didn't.

The Dragon page suggests Number Two and The Lancer as good counterparts. (The Aragorn sometimes sounds kinda similar, too.)

I'm seeing a number of examples in The Paragon Always Rebels of rebelling characters who aren't the Big Good's number #2 or The Paragon.

edited 16th Mar '11 12:40:58 AM by Camacan

The Lancer Rebels?

It's not about the Lancer, as far as I can tell. It's closer to Broken Pedestal.

edited 16th Mar '11 1:07:28 AM by Clarste

True that alot of the examples on the page are just normal Face–Heel Turn.

I am thinking the trope could use a re-write of it's definition. Less focus on rank, which would also make it closer to the title. Make it clear that the trope is about a character who is not just a good guy, but an example to all. A character that's the benchmark of good. Maybe he's The Paragon, maybe The Champion of his whole faction. That character used to be the most reliable force against evil. The one the Big Good could always rely on. Then that character has a Face–Heel Turn. And that's what hurts, because he falls from so high.

So to be an example the following must be present:

1. The Character must have been good in the past.
2. Said character must have been amongst the best of his side. He was applauded/praised/worshiped for his actions against evil. He was the best guy on the side of good during his time. IE: He wasn't just a member of the Five-Man Band, he was the one all five looked up to. He was the one whose exploits inspired them.
3. The character then turns evil, often becoming the Big Bad or The Dragon, making his fall all the more trajic as he goes from "Best" to "worst"

The YKTTW was originally gonna refer to Satan, who is often depicted as god's most powerful and favored angel, and who then falls from grace, and I think that's a good inspiration for how the trope should be described.

edited 16th Mar '11 1:22:16 AM by Ghilz

Corrupted Big Good? Corrupt The Big Good? Helel / Satan is the Ur-Example of this.

Satan wasn't the Big Good though, as that would be God.

Thinking the title can be fine if we work the desc over.

If we drop the requirement that it's a specific high-ranking good guy who distressingly goes bad, we've kinda just got Fallen Hero.

edited 16th Mar '11 1:43:49 AM by Camacan

Good point. Then is this just a duplicate that should be cut?

Possibly.

I notice that it was originally prosed as The Morningstar Always Rebels and during the YKTTW TJ thought it was Fallen Hero — but got no feedback. I guess it could be argued it is a subtrope where it's specifically the Big Good's number #2 but that seems a bit unhelpful given that role is not so well defined.

edited 16th Mar '11 2:56:04 AM by Camacan

So wait, the ykttw went with this for the title? I know I remember seeing a thread about this before and I could have sworn they decided to go with something else.

No, I'm sure it was launched as The Morningstar Always Rebels. It was taken to TRS and changed to the current name. I think the main reason was that people found it hard to see the connection "morningstar" -> "Lucifer" -> "Big Good's second in command".

Ok, so the TRS screwed this one up. Let's just change it back.

no. The YKTTW is linked to this discussion page. Pretty sure it was launched as the current title.

edited 16th Mar '11 11:54:34 AM by Ghilz

So, looking through the examples, I went for those that specifically mention someone being the #2. Since it's the only thing making this different from Fallen Hero

I got the following:

• Lucifer of Saint Beast decides being second to Zeus sucks so he and Gabriel move camp to Hell.
• Happens in the movie Gabriel, which is all too appropriate considering the movie is about angels and demons. Michael betrays his fellow angels and assumes the identity of the fallen angel Sammael with the intent of making the souls in the purgatory dimension they're fighting over into his own kingdom with which to battle Heaven and Hell.
• The villain of the film First Knight, Prince Malagant, used to be King Arthur's greatest champion before his greed and ambition made him question the Round Table's equality.
• In Warhammer 40,000, Horus was the Warmaster of the Imperium and out of all the Primarchs, he was probably the one with the closest relation to the Emperor. He's also the person after which the Horus Heresy, the cataclysmic civil war that reduced the Imperium to the Crapsack state we all know and love, was named. Technically he wasn't the first Primarch to turn to Chaos (Lorgar turned before him, and orchestrated the corruption of Horus), but he was the one that caused half of the other to turn to his side and start the war.
• In Points Of Light, Asmodeus was the greatest angel leading the strongest army in the war between the gods and the primordials. However, after a while he stopped caring about the innocents that got between him and the enemy, and after arguing with his boss about it, was cast down. He then took a rod crafted of pure evil and struck down his master with it, but in doing so was imprisoned within his master's domain for all time, transforming it into the Nine Hells.

Alot of the examples feature someone who was "The best" or "The strongest", or someone being second in power only to someone else. but that's just Fallen Hero right?

So that brings the question, should we cut this or are there enough good examples to keep this around?

Also, about the Satan thing... Satan never was God's right hand angel, that's Michael. Anything that says otherwise is just Word of Dante.

edited 16th Mar '11 1:17:23 PM by Ghilz

Since Satan is never identified as a fallen angel in The Bible, strictly speaking everything that refers to him as such is Word of Dante. But I apologise for going off topic.

edited 16th Mar '11 1:59:30 PM by DoktorvonEurotrash

I'm thinking cut. Examples which aren't already in Fallen Hero can be moved there. I feel that having the requirement that the Fallen Hero is 2IC to the Big Good doesn't add anything to the Fallen Hero trope. I can't see how it isn't The Same But More Specific.

If there are useful points about the Fallen Hero in the main text of The Paragon Always Rebels that aren't already in the later, they could be merged in too.

Bump

I've mostly seen it as The Paragon Always Rebels. In other words, the greatest champion of good, who was leading by example, got corrupted. Which is the reason this is distinct from just Fallen Hero and Heel–Face Turn: When the guy everybody looks up to turns evil, a lot of other people turn evil.

This is the way I've always seen it myself.

I can't read the title at all without thinking of Marvel Nemesis Rise Of The Imperfects (where one of the main characters is an Artificial Human named Paragon who rebels against her creators as a central plot point).

edited 10th May '11 10:06:47 AM by troacctid

Do even any of the examples follow that? The definition specifically does not.