Fairly easy to learn, but with depth - the best kind of game design?

I started another topic where I referred to these such games as "casual hardcore", but I didn't do a good job of making my intent clear, and it went way into a different course. So I'm trying again with a topic that I hope is more clear.

Anyway, I've been thinking about how I don't care for games like Dragon Age and I'm not all that excited about The Legend Of Zelda despite having formerly enjoyed it a great deal. And on the other hand, there's a rise in games that I also don't care for, such as Wii Sports and Wii Fit, which are way too simple for me and totally the opposite.

My favorite kind of game is the type that's inbetween. I don't know if there's a specific term for it, but basically it would be the kind of game where the core mechanics are relatively simple (i.e. jump, shoot), and yet there's depth in the gameplay as well.

A good example, probably the best example in fact, would be New Super Mario Bros Wii. It requires little time commitment due to its short levels, is relatively simple to learn how to play, and yet it has both challenge and hidden depth, such as alternate level exits and the giant coin collection challenge. On the other hand, it's simple to learn how to play. You run and jump. There's a few powerups such as shooting fireballs or flying, but nothing too complicated.

Another good example might be Dungeons And Dragons Shadow Over Mystara. You can play it just moving the character and hitting the attack button again and again, while more advanced players will want to collect the money to buy weapons and items, use magic spells and items strategically, and search out hidden areas. The game can be simple, or more complicated if you choose to partake in the optional depth.

What do you think of such games? Personally, I really want to see far more games take this middle ground inbetween the excessively simple and the intimidatingly complex. They used to be the core of the industry, and I think they have the potential to hold wide appeal. (The runaway sales of New Super Mario Bros should attest to that)

You could have asked a mod to change the title of your earlier topic if that was the problem.

Ah.

edited 1st Mar '11 11:53:07 AM by Customer

It had derailed way too much, and I figured it was best to start over with a brand new opening post.

The shmup genre. ;)

Most shmups' fundamental gameplay can be described as: "Directional controls to move, one button to shoot, one button for Smart Bombs. Now, shoot stuff without getting shot yourself."

Mastering them, on the other hand, takes a lot of time and dedication  ^*

. For the very few who feel that survival alone isn't enough, some shmups, especially Cave's stuff, have complex s#$%ing systems that take more than just knowing the fundamentals to tame them.

edited 1st Mar '11 1:23:47 PM by TsundeRay

http://twitter.com/raydere | http://raydere.tumblr.com

Would you consider Cave Story to fit in this catergory?

Oh yeah, shoot-em-ups. I suddenly have an urge to play Phalanx after reading that. That was one of my favorite shooters. So simple, yet if you know how to use your weapons and special attacks well, it just adds that much more depth, especially on higher difficulties.

I haven't played Cave Story, so I don't know. From what I hear of it and its Guide Dang It! moments, it might be too frustrating/intimidating to count.

edited 1st Mar '11 1:59:51 PM by BonsaiForest

Super Smash Bros could have been this, had the Scrubs vs Stop Having Fun Guys not been given a voice box.

I'd say the ultimate example of this in platformers would be Super Mario Bros 3. Game start consist of mostly easy peasy levels in order to ease the newcomer into the gameplay. By the time you reach midgame, you will have already adapted to a lot of the scenarios prior, and the gaming experience necessary to overcome the next. By end game, every mistake is your fault. Despite the game only consisting of two action buttons, I dare you not to get sweaty palms in the last worlds.

ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.

& For those not in the know, Cave is a game developer, most known for its Bullet Hell shmups.

Now there's a good game. It does do a great job of being easy to learn and eventually making its depth known, though there's depth even early on too, with tons of optional secrets in even the early levels.

Cave Story is a Metroidvania platformer, not a game company. Cave is a game company, but not the makers of Cave Story, which was originally an indie game.

Anyone have a good example of this type of game as a Beat 'em Up? I'd like to nominate River City Ransom. (or well, a majority of Technos Japan Corp beat em ups.)

ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.

Most of Ninendo's games(yes, even the so-called "hardcore" ones) are easy to play right off the bat, and yet most of them are so jam-packed with depth it's hard to put it down,and most of the games will probably kick your ass.

edited 1st Mar '11 3:16:04 PM by MrW

Agree about a thousand times.

ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.

Yeah, I should've mentioned that as well. The reason I posted is 'cause you were referring to Cave Story, while Tsunde Ray was initially referring to the company. And now I notice chocoboxxx's post in between. Silly me.

That being said, I am rather fond of Cave Story's design.

edited 1st Mar '11 3:43:22 PM by Blueeyedrat

Streetsof Rage (mostly 2, the first one's too hard and the third one's all over the place) is pretty forgiving for a beat 'em up if you play on normal or lower. Lots of health items scattered everywhere, abundant lives, and very simple, easy to learn gameplay; but there are enough nuances and glitches that more hardcore players find something to love on Mania difficulty.

edited 1st Mar '11 3:55:22 PM by Hashil

Rather surprised no one's mentioned the main Pokemon titles. Easy enough for pretty much anyone to simply pick up and enjoy, and yet chock full of hidden goodies (E Vs, I Vs, breeding, Battle Frontier, etc) for those who want to look past the surface.

Actually, it'd be nice if they actually explained EVs in the game itself, and IVs just make me want to strangle the developers. >_>

edited 1st Mar '11 4:17:58 PM by Scardoll

Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.

I would agree with Ray concerning about the entire Shmup genre. Survive, and then later on, score.

Also, I would say Platforming games.

Shutdown sequence initiated.

I'd nominate Ehrgeiz as well for this.

ALL CREATURE WILL DIE AND ALL THE THINGS WILL BE BROKEN. THAT'S THE LAW OF SAMURAI.