Is rape about power, or about lust?

Based on this tangent in another thread I think a discussion on whether rape is about power or about lust is in order. The former seems to be asserted almost dogmatically though.

Like others in that thread have said, if it were just about power there would probably be other means of expressing it, with less room for backfiring; lust probably at least plays a role in it.

It can't be about both?

In Law Enforcement circles where criminal psychology comes into play, it's said that it's almost always about power over lust, but that both are involved to some degree.

I don't know, personally I disagree and feel that it can be about either individually, or both. I don't care much about the motivations involved though, just about catching the person responsible or preventing such a thing, which is why we study the motivation in the first place I guess, so we can have an easier time profiling people in a case to find probable suspects.

I'd say both, but lust always seems to be overlooked.

I'm pretty sure the typical case is about both, with power having a slight to moderate edge. Because honestly, it's not that hard to get strings-free sex, and masturbation is even easier. I think people commit rape because they find it more sexually satisfying to overpower or coerce a person than to come to a mutually agreed-upon arrangement.

"Because honestly, it's not that hard to get strings-free sex" - Karalora

Depends on the circumstances. I'll bet it's probably fairly hard for an ugly and/ or uncharismatic guy to get sex.

"and masturbation is even easier." - Karalora

I've heard it's not as intensely pleasuring as sex is, though. (Not that I've ever tried sex, but that's another story.)

. . .

Oh, and Barkey, I was by no means denying that rapists are still dangerous people who need to be locked up. I'm just saying that what motivates them is still RELEVANT, because that might give us a better idea how to PREVENT rape.

edited 21st Feb '11 12:03:01 PM by neoYTPism

Then in that case, rapists should, on average, be more unattractive than other men, right? Not true: there is no correlation between attractiveness and... well, "rapistness," I suppose.

Also: there's no correlation between attractiveness and likelihood of being the victim of rape, either.

^

Oh, I totally agree with you. I guess I was more or less thinking aloud about how I don't like the strict ideology that criminal psychiatry holds to rape. I think sometimes it really is powered by basic instincts of lust, and not always a complicated issue of power and control. LE science doesn't support that possibility. They think it's always a deranged and complex mental state that is responsible for rape. I disagree with that.

Fairly certain its a power thing. Lust probably plays into it, but power is the main appeal I think.

It's about libido dominandi.

St. Augustine actually starts The City of God by saying rape dishonors only the rapist (in the context of Germans sacking Rome in 410), against Hellenes who say the victims lose their honor and must go Lucretia. This leads into the general problem of lust to rule.

libido dominandi, ah yes the lust for dominance. Yep it's about sex and power.

edited 22nd Feb '11 1:33:05 AM by joeyjojo

More power than lust, but definitely both, IMO.

Without the lust, they'd settle for some other way to show their power over said person. Without the power, they'd be bitterly unhappy with their unfulfilled lust, but from afar.

Either or. Maybe both. Depends on the individuals involved I think. And their current state of mind.

edited 22nd Feb '11 1:46:48 AM by Aondeug

Like I was saying on the Rape Culture thread, while the damage can be just as great to the victim there is a sizeable difference between the mindset of the perpetrator of acquaintance rape and your typical back alley rapist. While a gang banger fits the 'power' bill fairly neatly. The Jerk Jock who forces himself onto his girlfriend reflects more of a sense of sexual entitlement than contempt.

edited 22nd Feb '11 2:43:31 AM by joeyjojo

I'd say power more than lust. After all, I hear that not all prison rapists are just Depraved Homosexuals. Rather, it's mostly straight men wanting to establish dominance and power.

As I noted in the other thread though, situational sexuality appears to be a real phenomenon, that does not apply exclusively to men or in coercive environments. The fact that the perpetrators of prison rape tend not to identify as homosexual doesn't mean that the act is not significantly one of sexual motivation.

^ I was going to mention that, but I was too lazy. I do agree with you though.

"Then in that case, rapists should, on average, be more unattractive than other men, right? Not true: there is no correlation between attractiveness and... well, "rapistness, " I suppose." - zoulza

You sure about that one?

Also, unattractiveness isn't the only reason to have difficulty getting sex, there's also what someone's reputation would be, whether or not someone is known to have some serious STD, etc... again, not saying it excuses it, but again, criticizing the assumption that it is "not difficult to get sex." At the very least, it depends on the individual.

Something that bugs me, it's that while there is many studies that focuses on the plight on the victim of rape. Their doesn't seem to be many sociologists prepared to just go up and ask a rapists what his motivation was.

I suspect the prioritizing of "power", uber alles, as an explanation for rape, stems from identifying with the victim's POV, at the expense of examining the rapist's.

edited 25th Feb '11 7:42:34 AM by MRDA1981

It is of course about both. I would go so far as to say that all sex even consensual sex is tied up in issues of both power and lust. Most everyone makes some sort play in the bedroom. Then there is a negotiation and some middle ground is found between what I want and what she wants. Rapists just skip that negotiation step.

Oh, and of course this only really applies to those that think they are committing rape (self delusion aside). Some of the gentler and or more peripheral rape types will most likely have wildly different psychologies.

"Their doesn't seem to be many sociologists prepared to just go up and ask a rapists what his motivation was." - joeyjojo

Probably because of the idea that you "shouldn't take a rapist's word for it" and in turn the idea that one therefore can't gain from at least knowing what rapists say.

For what it's worth, science would in theory be a more valid means of finding it out anyway than just asking people. In practice, though, even THERE, certain sociobiological theories on it don't seem to be given a fair enough hearing...

I would go so far as to say that all sex even consensual sex is tied up in issues of both power and lust.

True enough. One only has to look at our modern Western culture, where people's social status is considerably dependent on "getting laid".

I wonder if in some cases it's about getting sex the only way one's insecurities would allow. I can see the appeal of that. The way I see it, overpowering/coercing someone would be a means to an end— that end being the freedom to do what you want without their will getting in the way; the freedom from the burden of having to live up to someone else's standards, worry about being judged/rejected, or let concerns about someone else's thoughts/feelings/wants/needs distract you from your own enjoyment. It'd essentially be like having an extremely realistic (albeit not compliant) Sexbot.

I've seen no-strings sex referred to as masturbation using another person's body, but it seems to me that rape would fit that description better. I mean, if you've gone through all the trouble of convincing someone to consent, doesn't that mean that on some level, they're still a person to you, not just a toy?

edited 25th Feb '11 8:08:59 AM by Tongpu

Only among whomever panders to whomever else looks up to those who get laid. To those of us who care more about doing what's right than about doing what's popular, the condescension to virgins isn't the fault of virgins but of those who look down on virgins.

After all, when some "playas" impregnate one of the girls along their promiscuous paths, how many of their former fans bother to help with child support payments, huh? Conversely, how many of those who look down on virgins use electricity despite the fact that alternating current was established by the celibate Nikola Tesla?

edited 25th Feb '11 8:10:49 AM by neoYTPism