Follow TV Tropes

Following

The Arab Spring

Go To

Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#20026: Jul 8th 2014 at 1:34:30 AM

@ Achaemenid: Sounds a bit like Four Lions. Apparently, some of the potential plots in that film came from MI5 transcripts.

edited 8th Jul '14 1:50:37 AM by Greenmantle

Keep Rolling On
Achaemenid HGW XX/7 from Ruschestraße 103, Haus 1 Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: Giving love a bad name
HGW XX/7
#20027: Jul 8th 2014 at 1:38:30 AM

Rubber dinghy rapids bro.

Schild und Schwert der Partei
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#20028: Jul 8th 2014 at 1:56:59 AM

Iraqi general in charger of western Baghdad was slain earlier yesterday. Also Parliament recessed again without any change.

Political bubbles are sad and strange...

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#20029: Jul 9th 2014 at 6:17:51 AM

So this guy from the Malaysian Institute of Islamic Understanding is... attempting to excuse al-Baghdadi and co.

Coming back to our definition of extremism, we must conclude in the first place that secularism is itself intrinsically an ideology that recognises no limit. It is based upon the rejection of a permanent truth and reality, making it impossible to agree upon a definition.

Without an agreed upon definition, how are we to know that a limit has been trespassed, effectively making the trespasser an extremist? Yet the secular western world has been all too certain that they always “know” the limit and hence the transgressor.

Yes. Really. What do you mean, this isn't Insane Troll Logic? And isn't what the IS doing sort of the logical extreme of "Allah hasn't given us a limit, so we'll do what we want"? Not like a Bolt of Divine Retribution would convince these excuses for human beings otherwise...

I'm not the only unamused one, it seems. Archived as the original site's posts disappear after being replaced by newer ones.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#20030: Jul 9th 2014 at 7:36:05 AM

Look, to a Serious Business Muslim, secularism is a horrific thing. Hand-chopping thieves that don't live below the poverty line isn't extremist because it's within the rules they recognize: it's Lawful. Hanging them, however, would be seen as barbaric and unfair; it exceeds lawful punishment.

He raises a good point, in that extremism is context-dependent and a function of the local Overton Window. It would be convenient (not to mention, imho, wonderful) if, say, the UN declaration of human rights was a globally consensual window, but that isn't even true in the Western First World.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#20031: Jul 9th 2014 at 7:47:51 AM

I'd like to note that a lot of Muslims seem to confuse secularism with antireligionism — not surprising, since a commonly cited example of a Muslim country turning secular is Turkey, whose brand of "secularism" started off as extremely antireligionist. That said, secularism as practiced by most of the Western world is still quite controversial from an Islamic POV, since the Islamic creed asserts the primacy and precedence of God's word and law over the word and laws that are made by the human mind, and thus to say that a majority-Muslim country's laws and politics should not be influenced by Islam's religious teachings is a declaration of apostasy in and of itself.

The Wikipedia article on the topic, for those interested.

edited 9th Jul '14 7:50:25 AM by MarqFJA

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#20032: Jul 9th 2014 at 8:32:17 AM

There's a difference between "influence" and "absolute control" however. It is only natural that sharia will influence the laws of Muslim-majority countries, just as we in America have the Ten Commandments given a lot of historical precedence; religious law informs secular law, both because it forms a basis of shared values for the country and because religious law is generally older than surviving secular codes.

Sharia can be the base without being the beginning and end of the law. But the extremist types aren't the ones to realize that anyway.

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#20033: Jul 9th 2014 at 9:04:51 AM

Secularism by and large does function like anti-religionism; in practice, it generally consists in replacing the worship of the God with the worship of the Nation, the Church with the State, and Piousness with Civism. Of course, every country does it somewhat differently, but I understand there's a trend that secular countries have currently most youth becoming atheist, and most of their parents becoming lapsed.

The explanation some would give would give would be that religion is inherently unattractive, that worship and submission to a deity is demeaning, praising it is boring, and praying to it an exercise in futility and frustration, that rites are a physical and mental drudgery that few people would willingly submit to in the absence of outside pressure, that their rules tend to be outdated, and the process of picking and choosing which to follow and which to treat as "metaphoric" is intellectually confusing.

As they see it, freedom to choose religions, including freedom not to be religious at all, is a death sentence to religion, which will only carry on with the momentum of tradition and eventually peter out and die, unless powerful elements of society feel a vested interest in keeping it propped up.

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#20034: Jul 9th 2014 at 1:29:07 PM

Could we please take this discussion to the religion thread. I'd rather we discussed actual news here.

For example, Maliki is trying to sell the idea that the Kurds are assisting ISIS, according to WSJ.

Also, an American diplomat got kicked out of Bahrain for meeting with the Shiite opposition.

[down]Indeed. It's like he's LOOKING for holes to dig himself into.

edited 9th Jul '14 1:56:30 PM by FFShinra

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
SabresEdge Show an affirming flame from a defense-in-depth Since: Oct, 2010
Show an affirming flame
#20035: Jul 9th 2014 at 1:51:43 PM

That sounds like an implausible claim if there ever was one, since just about every other source I've seen says that the Kurds have been doing their job in keeping ISIS away from Kurdistan. ISIS for its part doesn't want to stir that hornet's nest, since the Kurdish peshmerga militia have a reputation for being tough fighters.

Charlie Stross's cheerful, optimistic predictions for 2017, part one of three.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#20036: Jul 9th 2014 at 8:20:40 PM

Yeah, the Kurds have fought people way tougher than ISIS, namely every power in the region at one point or another.

The Americans are at least considering using a drone on the IS leader, no surprise there. I wonder if he has adequate successors in the wings...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/09/world/pentagon-isis-leader-drone/index.html?hpt=wo_c2

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#20037: Jul 9th 2014 at 8:51:51 PM

There's always someone else. This guy is Zarqawi's successor. There are more than enough people in the wings to replace the Baghdadi.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#20038: Jul 9th 2014 at 10:00:29 PM

Yeah, best we can hope for is that his commanders turn on each other and give the Iraqi army time to get it`s act together.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#20039: Jul 9th 2014 at 10:09:24 PM

Wouldn't matter. The only reason these guys have as much success as they have is due to the locals being fed up. Baghdad would have to commit genocide to get the Sunni provinces back under control by just force.

And with parliament not acting quickly in the slightest, that political will won't come in fast enough. The silver lining in all this is that the advance has made it about as far as it can go.

Some more news: The Houthis have captured a provincial capital just a few miles away from the Yemeni capital.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
Blurring One just might from one hill away to the regular Bigfoot jungle. Since: Oct, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
One just might
#20040: Jul 12th 2014 at 7:07:48 AM

Ignore.

edited 12th Jul '14 7:28:16 AM by Blurring

If a chicken crosses the road and nobody else is around to see it, does the road move beneath the chicken instead?
Greenmantle V from Greater Wessex, Britannia Since: Feb, 2010 Relationship Status: Hiding
V
#20041: Jul 13th 2014 at 2:47:50 AM

The BBC: A Point of View: Isis and what it means to be modern

When you see the leader of Isis, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi, in Mosul announcing the creation of a caliphate - an Islamic state ruled by a religious leader - it's easy to think that what you're watching is a march back into the past. The horrifying savagery with which the jihadist organisation treats anyone that stands in its way seems to come from a bygone era. The fact that Isis - the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, which has now changed its name to the Islamic State - claims that it wants to restore an early type of Islam, leads many of us to see it as trying to bring about a reversion to mediaeval values.

To my mind, this gives too much credence to the way Isis views itself. There's actually little in common between the horribly repressive regime it has established in parts of Iraq and Syria and the subtle Islamic states of mediaeval times, which in Spain, for example, exercised a degree of tolerance at a time when the rest of Europe was wracked by persecution. Destroying ancient shrines and mosques, Isis is trying to eradicate every trace of Islamic tradition. It's probably even more oppressive than the Taliban were in Afghanistan. In power, Isis resembles a 20th Century totalitarian state more than any type of traditional rule.

Surprising as it may sound, Isis is in many respects thoroughly modern. Like al-Qaeda before them, these jihadists have organised themselves as a highly efficient company. Initially funded by donations from wealthy supporters, they've rapidly expanded into a self-financing business. Through kidnapping and extortion, looting and selling antiquities, siphoning off oil in territories they conquer, seizing gold bullion and other assets from banks and acquiring large quantities of American military hardware in the course of their advance, Isis has become the wealthiest jihadist organisation in the world. According to some estimates, it's worth well over $2bn.

Isis uses this wealth to expand its popular base, providing public services and repairing damaged infrastructure in the areas it controls. Its use of social media is highly professional. On its websites it issues annual reports containing detailed accounts of its acquisitions and operations, including breakdowns of the bombings, assassinations and suicide missions it has carried out.

Isis makes effective use of the internet to broadcast the brutal manner with which it deals with anyone judged to be an enemy. Isis's savagery isn't impulsive. Everything suggests it's a strategy developed over a number of years. When it posts videos of people being beheaded or shot, Isis advances several of its goals - simultaneously inspiring dread in its enemies, teaching the communities it controls the dire consequences of departing from an exceptionally extreme interpretation of Islam and sowing chaos in the population as a whole. There's nothing mediaeval about this mix of ruthless business enterprise, well-publicised savagery and transnational organised crime. Dedicated to building a new society from scratch, Isis has more in common with modern revolutionary movements.

Though al-Baghdadi constantly invokes the early history of Islam, the society he envisions has no precedent in history. It's much more like the impossible state of utopian harmony that western revolutionaries have projected into the future. Some of the thinkers who developed radical Islamist ideas are known to have been influenced by European anarchism and communism, especially by the idea that society can be reshaped by a merciless revolutionary vanguard using systematic violence. The French Jacobins and Lenin's Bolsheviks, the Khmer Rouge and the Red Guards all used terror as a way of cleansing humanity of what they regarded as moral corruption.

Isis shares more with this modern revolutionary tradition than any ancient form of Islamic rule. Though they'd hate to hear it, these violent jihadists owe the way they organise themselves and their utopian goals to the modern West. And it's not just ideas and methods that Isis has taken from the West. Western military intervention gave Isis its chance of power. While Saddam was in charge, there were no jihadist movements operating in Iraq - none at all. With all the crimes Saddam's dictatorship committed, it was a regime that applied secular law and had made some steps towards emancipating women.

In my view, toppling Saddam was bound to unravel this secular state and the Iraqi state itself. Even if the American-led occupiers hadn't made the mistake of disbanding the army and dissolving the ruling party, the country would eventually have broken up. Iraq was constructed from provinces of the former Ottoman Empire by the British in the 1920s, with the Sunni minority being the ruling group. The Sunnis had ruled since 1638, when the Ottomans took Baghdad from the Persians. The Kurds, who were included in the new state because the British prized the oil resources in the north of the country, were sure to take any opportunity to seize independence. Whatever the failings of the Maliki government, the idea that a stable federal system could develop in these circumstances has always been far-fetched. As some of those who opposed the war from the start foresaw, regime change created many of the conditions for a failed state. These are the same conditions that have allowed Isis to emerge and thrive.

It's sometimes suggested that ideology played no real part in the invasion of Iraq - grabbing the country's oil was what it was all about. No doubt geopolitical calculation played a part, but I think an idea of what it means to be modern was more important. The politicians and opinion-formers who clamoured for the invasion believed that all modern societies are evolving towards a single form of government - the type that exists in western countries. If only tyranny was swept away in Iraq, the country would move towards democracy and the rest of the Middle East would follow. Until just a few months ago, some were convinced that a similar process could take place in Syria.

As I see it, this has never been more than an ideological fantasy. The modern world isn't evolving in any single direction. Liberal democracy is only one of several possible destinations. With its delusional ambitions (which, if we are to believe recent statements, include reconquering Spain) Isis illustrates a darker aspect of the modern world - the practice of using terror and violence in an attempt to achieve impossible goals.

Isis may have already over-reached itself. It's facing determined opposition from many sides - not just from Shia militias but also rival Sunni jihadists such as Al Qaeda, from which it's an offshoot. There are conflicting interests among the disparate elements Isis has recently recruited, and it's not clear that it can govern a state on any long-term basis. Moreover, Baghdadi's claim to speak for all Muslims is dismissed by Islamic scholars and rejected as absurd by practically the entire Muslim world. Even so, Isis poses a real danger - and not just in the Middle East.

It's hard for anyone to estimate in precise terms the scale of the threat Isis poses to countries such as Britain. Its main targets are in the Middle East. Still, there must be a danger that Western citizens who have gone to Syria and Iraq as Isis fighters will return battle-hardened and with new bomb-making skills. Also, Isis has now declared war not only on the west but also on al-Qaeda. In these circumstances there may be an increased risk that one or other of these groups will be tempted to stage a spectacular act of terror in order to secure a position of leadership in the global jihadist struggle.

Through their policies of regime change, Western governments have pursued an ideological vision that leaves out the dark side of the modern world. In doing so, they've unwittingly let loose a particularly nasty version of modern savagery. Whatever happens to the self-styled caliphate, the forces it embodies aren't going to fade away. Isis is a part of the revolutionary turmoil of modern times, and until we grasp that uncomfortable fact we won't be able to deal with the dangers we face.

Keep Rolling On
Tyler They worship kittens in Egypt, you know. from Egypt Since: Aug, 2012 Relationship Status: A teenager in love
They worship kittens in Egypt, you know.
#20042: Jul 13th 2014 at 12:57:45 PM

[up][up][up][up] I've seen some news reports that an ISIS commander in Syria, name of Abu Luqman, is disputing Al Baghdadi's claim to the caliphate and has had his supporters in Raqqa pledge him support to be caliph instead. This could be just newspapers making shit up though.

Did you know that 90% of household dust is made from dead human skin? That's what you are to me.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#20043: Jul 13th 2014 at 1:00:33 PM

[up][up]That was an excellent article.[tup] Though it doesn't bode well for anyone unfortunate to be in the occupied areas.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#20044: Jul 13th 2014 at 5:24:29 PM

Posted yesterday in the ME&NA thread:

It looks like the Kurds might be a major oil exporter in the near future.

edited 13th Jul '14 5:25:30 PM by chi_mangetsu

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#20045: Jul 13th 2014 at 8:40:57 PM

How would they do so? Turkey's the only ones who would let them, and is there any infrastructure leading out in that direction? (i do know that the Turks happen to be oddly friendly towards the Iraqi Kurds even as they keep their own under foot)

chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#20046: Jul 13th 2014 at 8:55:06 PM

Who's going to stop them? They've stated they're merely holding the territory to protect it and currently have no intentions in interfering in the administration of the business of the Kirkuk fields, but they have every intention of assimilating Kirkuk into Kurdish territory (which is the de-facto state currently). Considering the state of Iraq, I wonder how long it will take for that de-facto to become actual.

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
Ogodei Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers from The front lines Since: Jan, 2011
Fuck you, Fascist sympathizers
#20047: Jul 13th 2014 at 9:14:39 PM

Yes, but to export, you have to move something from point A to point B. When your alternatives for point B are "the country you just declared independence from and screwed over," "the country in a civil war," "the country subject to international sanctions of all sorts" and "the other country who's been oppressing your people for decades" selling much of anything, or really functioning at all, is going to be tricky.

chi_mangetsu Not a Tree from brink of the universe Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Not a Tree
#20048: Jul 13th 2014 at 9:30:22 PM

The move to seize the oil fields was to preempt a plan by the Baghdad government to "sabotage" an oil pipeline that runs through Kurdish territory. Whether true or no, should they achieve autonomy, I don't see how they couldn't export through Turkey since they're starting to get along a bit better than in previous years.

"I'd like to be a tree." - Fluttershy
FFShinra Beware the Crazy Man. from Ivalice, apparently Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Beware the Crazy Man.
#20049: Jul 13th 2014 at 9:41:03 PM

Guys, the Iraqi Kurds have been shipping oil out for over a year, via Turkey. The problem is, Iraq's national oil company is basically threatening anyone who buys Kurdish oil doesn't get any from Iraq, and even with those oil fields under Kirkuk's control, it doesn't match the capacity of the south. So far, the only people buying (under the table) are the Israelis.

Final Fantasy, Foreign Policy, and Bollywood. Helluva combo, that...
TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#20050: Jul 14th 2014 at 2:43:01 AM

Oh. That's funny!

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

Total posts: 28,886
Top