Buffy the Vampire Slayer

Ya know who is the great unsung badass of Buffy? Giles. When he attacks Angelus he might have very well been able to kill him if he wasn't intent more on making him suffer. Sure it would be due to the elemnt of surprise but, well, no human can match a vamp physically and also Giles is old so who cares. http://gilesface.tumblr.com/post/20834505942/giles-attacks-angelus-with-flaming-baseball-bat

Passion is just a perfect episode, one of the best in the whole series. It has everything.

And even though I don't like Season 6, I will always remember when Dark Willow is all like "nobody can beat me!" and then she gets knocked down and the episode ends with Giles saying "I'd like to test that theory."

Only good part of the whole Dark Willow nonsense.

edited 15th May '17 10:38:14 PM by Nikkolas

I'M MR. MEESEEKS, LOOK AT ME!

Because there's no such person? If you are talking about Eliza Dushku, however, I have no idea. She would make a great Jessica Drew.

It's been stated before that Slayers are inherently stronger than vampires — in "Sanctuary," there's a bit of dialogue:

edited 15th May '17 10:42:15 PM by alliterator

Maybe stronger than Mook Vampire but the oldest tnes - The Master, Turok-Han, Kakistos - are clearly stronger than Slayers.

Strength is relative, speed and technique is just as vital to how "strong" a character is. The Master never overpowered Buffy physically, but relied on his hypnotic powers. Once she developed a resistance to that she was able to beat him fairly easily. Same thing with the Turok Han. It was pretty consistent that she was not accustomed to enemies who could match her in strength, so after getting trounced a few times she had to refine her skill and strategy. The only enemies she was completely outmatched were Glory and Adam.

Another issue is that Angel had the better stunt coordinator and team, so at least in terms of visceral action Angel was easily more badass than Buffy. Compare Buffy vs Adam to Angel vs The Beast.

The strongest character in the Buffyverse is probably Illyria. After that it's probably a toss between The Beast, Glory and Hamilton.

Blegh.Illyria. She was just a demon. Glory used to be a god of a whole dimension.

Wasn't Illyria an Old One? She is easily much than Angel and his team but she weakened in that episode (I forgot which one).

"We are just like Irregular Data. And that applies to you too, Ri CO. And as for you, Player... your job is to correct Irregular Data."

Hamilton who now?

The flaming baseball bat scene always make me think about how a properly prepared human could do serious damage to a vampire nest. Just burning down the building their hiding in could do massive damage and kill several.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

@Illyria: She wasn't just any old demon. She was one of the Old Ones. I think the comics mention that they're at least as strong as the Powers that Be. Although I don't think she was at her full power in Fred's body and she got depowered further a few episodes later.

He's from the end of Angel Season 5. He's imbued with the power of Wolfram & Hart and beats the shit out of Angel. Also punches a hole through a guy in a darkly comedic/scary moment.

Angel kills him by drinking his blood, thereby gaining Hamilton's power in addition to his own.

Quite frankly, I preferred Caleb as far as these things go. I loved the idea he was just such a pure evil human being that he could host the First Evil. Good actor, too.

...Oh yeah. Completely forgot about him. And yeah, Caleb was awesome. Shame he only got four episodes.

Illyria was essentially Cthulhu in a tiny girls body. On top of that she had enhanced senses and time warping powers. On top of that her powers had large scale destructive potential, retrieving her spirit to the "hole in the world" would cause massive casualties as her spirit would fight and her time powers were about to explode and take out the west coast. The others I mentioned were basically just super strong and durable, with the end of the world scenario something external to their capabilities.

Basically, Illyria was what Mayor Wilkins aspired to be. Glory was a Hell-God. Both were weakened by their human states.

There's really no way to know who'd come out on top if Illyria's natural state fought Glory's. Between their human forms, however, my money's on Illyria. Glory's a powerhouse, but Illyria's a powerhouse who can also selectively alter the flow of time.

All due respect to the Scoobies, but Angel's gang is a bit more formidable than Buffy's, even if Buffy herself is tougher than Angel. When Glory got dogpiled, the Scoobies were actually able to overpower her and finally put an end to her. When Illyria was dogpiled, she slaughtered Angel's entire crew in under a minute.

Glory was always an insurmountable threat that required every gun in Chekhov's Armory to be pulled out in order to beat her, but Illyria was flat-out unbeatable.

edited 16th May '17 5:40:28 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

What are the Hell Gods anyway? The Old Ones are supposed to be the evil counterpart to the Powers that Be. Would that make the Hell Gods a specific type of Old One or are they a separate group that came about some other way?

They're basically the Powers That Be that rule over Hell Dimensions. There's a bunch of Hell Dimensions, so it's not without reason that some or all of them would have their own sets of god-beings.

The Old Ones are the original demons that lived on Earth before they were banished. They're not really the evil counterpart of the PTB - which are the closest things to actual gods in the show. They're just ancient, powerful, pure demons utterly devoid of any humanity, whose presence on this planet would pretty much preclude any possibility of human civilization.

They are very ambiguously defined, to the point that it's unclear where they line up compared to more divine entities like Hell Gods or the PTB. Of the Old Ones, however, Illyria is noted to be the most powerful. If any of them could curbstomp a Hell God or PTB, it's her.

The Wolf, Ram, and Hart specifically are poised as the evil counterparts to the PTB, at least in the show, but that's within the limited capacities of both sides to merely influence the human world, never directly touching it. Who could beat who in a fight is basically irrelevant.

And while they are Old Ones, it's interesting to note that Illyria indicates that they were bottom-feeders in her time.

edited 16th May '17 6:01:21 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Illyria didn't seem to have the same sort of durability as Glory. She was tougher than humans, sure, but she still seemed to prefer dodging attacks instead of No Selling them like Glory could. And Glory's superspeed and Illyria's time-slowing seem to accomplish the same thing.

As for which cast of characters was more formidable overall, starting with the end of Season 5/start of Season 6, Willow could probably beat everyone else in the Scooby and Fang Gangs at once. Hence the show making her an emotional wreck when it comes to her Story-Breaker Power.

edited 17th May '17 8:37:30 AM by RavenWilder

That's fair regarding Willow. She's a bit of a game-breaker by that point.

I was mostly thinking about how Xander, Anya, and Giles stacked up to Gunn, late-series Wesley, or Spi—

...

I was counting Spike as Angel's for some reason, because I am an idiot.

edited 16th May '17 6:46:31 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently liveblogging Haruhi Suzumiya and revisiting Danganronpa V3.

Why shouldn't he count? He was part of both teams.

The Old Ones aren't the counterparts to the Powers That Be — those would be Wolfram & Hart's Senior Partners. The Old Ones are simply really, really old demons, most of whom died many years ago and were buried in the Deeper Well.

The only Hell God we met was Glorificus and I believe it was explained that she specifically came from a dimension where she and two other Gods ruled over the world, but the other Gods banished her to Earth where her power was reduced and she needed to feed on mortal's minds in order to stay sane.

edited 16th May '17 11:37:43 PM by alliterator

That is correct.

Glorificus is the best. I'm not sure if she counts as Neutral Evil or Chaotic Evil, though.

I love D&D Alignments and used to try and sort every fiction I care about into them.

That's because Spike was too busy laughing to fight well.

Probably depends on how much sanity she has at the time.

I would say more Neutral Evil, she was not acting out of a desire to see pain and suffering, she was trying to solve her own perceived pain and suffering.

The thing about power levels is that in this type of fiction there is functionally little difference between a hell demon god and an Eldritch Abomination. Most things were made up by the writers in the moment, as such Jasmine was never clarified (either a fallen The Powers That Be or an imposter powerful enough to piggyback on their acts).

Well there is this one line....

Gronx: "In mercy does your power lie?"

Glory: "No, brainless, in torture, death and chaos does my power lie."

Also, back when I was doing Buffy alignments elsewhere, some people tried to tell me Illyria was Lawful Neutral. Justification? She claims to be Above Good and Evil. Doesn't matter she wants to dominate and enslave everyone and make them kiss her feet for no reason other than she feels like it, she's clearly not evil.

Damn Illyria fanboys. She doesn't even have nice feet like Glory did. (and that's me quoting Dawn, not being weird)

edited 18th May '17 10:06:30 PM by Nikkolas