Bellesario's Maxim vs: MST 3 K Mantra

Can we get a wicks check for misuse? I've seen a few cases where one gets linked for the other (but offhand, can't recall which ones).

The line between the two is:

• MST3K Mantra: Don't worry about it, it's just a work of fiction, not Real Life.
• Bellisario's Maxim  ^*
  ^{(Damn, I simply can not spell this one correctly)}
  : Pay no attention to the Fridge Logic.

I can do a check myself when I can gather some free time to do it.

edited 2nd Jan '11 10:17:16 AM by Stratadrake

Stratadrake, I looked through a good number of the punctuated title tropes that feature the MST3K Mantra and while I have seen some uses of the trope that I might find a bit questionable, I think that is more to do with the use of the trope as a way to say something like "Haters Gonna Hate" or in a way that could probably apply to almost all works of fiction. The only example I actually edited to swap the tropes was in I Can't See Myself. I might have messed that up though, so it might be a good idea to check it.

Feel free to disagree, but I think that tropes like Bellesario's Maxim and the MST3K Mantra (in works pages) should generally be limited to actual statements by the creators or examples from series that Lampshade those tropes in some ways. Otherwise, I think that one could basically say that every author uses them. I might be totally off the mark here though.

edited 2nd Jan '11 3:20:06 PM by LouieW

I mulled over it today while at work and come to a IMHO conclusion of MS T3k Mantra being, technically speaking, a Sub-Trope of Bellisario's Maxim (and I still can't spell it properly on the first try). MST3K Mantra is specifically "don't worry about it because it's just fiction", while BM is more generic.

MST3K Mantra is "You shouldn't let this get in the way of your enjoyment of the work." Bellisario's Maxim is "The writers are only human; they can't be expected to get everything perfect."

Basically, they're two different arguments that support the same conclusion. They both say "This isn't something you should be concerned with," but they come at it from different directions.

^I'm not getting that vibe at all from Bellisario's Maxim. Nothing in the description mentions this having anything to do with inconsistencies, inaccuracies, or imperfections that the writers are at fault for, and the first sentence in the description about how the maxim even came about makes this sound completely identical to the MST3K Mantra:

Said by producer Donald P Bellisario at an early-1990s SF convention in response to a persistent fan with very specific questions about the way things worked on Bellisario's series Quantum Leap.

To compare to the origins of the MST3K Mantra:

If you're wondering how he eats and breathes and other science facts, just repeat to yourself, "It's just a show; I should really just relax."

The origin of both of these terms lies in Hand Waving the same details for the same reasons.

edited 3rd Jan '11 8:24:59 AM by SeanMurrayI

Well, at any rate, that's what it says in Subtle Trope Distinctions.

^Even on that page, there doesn't appear to be much of a distinction being outlined. It alleges that Bellisario's Maxim is "from a more technical standpoint," but it's essentially just pointing out exactly what the MST3K Mantra states just in different words.

The second point about Bellisario's Maxim's position on addressing and "exorcising" PlotHoles from stories is also never mentioned once in the main article.

At any rate, I'm calling bullshit on what's stated on the Canonical List of Subtle Trope Distinctions.

edited 3rd Jan '11 7:19:54 PM by SeanMurrayI

They are fan terms and as such we are listing them more as an Encyclopedia would than trying to make an actual trope out of them. There isn't going to be a merging, they are exampleless articles anyway. From experience MST3K Mantra is used more often, but they are so closely related that one example is likely to fit both.

The distinction lies in the attitude of the statement, not in the statement itself. The Mantra is about not letting such things ruin your enjoyment of the show. The Maxim is an attempt to understand that fiction doesn't require all the details being flawlessly explained.

Going by the trope namers, MST3K was a very whimsical show and they didn't bother trying to be consistent. Bellisarios maxim originated from Quantum Leap, which tried to establish some rules to its science but was ultimately a means to justify the premise. If fans try to ask overly complex questions, the Mantra is "We haven't bothered" while the Maxim is "We haven't look that far into it."

Current description of this trope, as of my reading, adds another distinction — or perhaps reinforces the above distinction.

Bellisario's Maxim applies to shows that are trying to be serious — allow Artistic License to let the message or drama go through. The MST3K Mantra applies only to shows that are "just shows"; it probably wouldn't even apply to later seasons of MST 3 K, and definitely wouldn't apply to Quantum Leap or Babylon 5.

In other words ... MST3K Mantra is what you get when you combine Bellisario's Maxim with Completely Missing The Point? The latter is simply "don't think about this too hard", while the former is "why the heck are you thinking about this in the first place?"

edited 26th Jan '11 8:54:18 AM by Stratadrake

Pretty much I agree with Stratadrake and AnonymousMcCartneyfan here.

I agree with Odd1.

Apparently, we as a wiki felt that the point needed to be emphasized twice. Make of that what you will.

edited 19th Aug '11 11:09:50 PM by DonZabu