Game of Thrones [Potential Book Spoilers]

I'm not trying to sweep criticisms aside, but it seems to me that these criticisms/your criticisms start with hatred of the show for departing from the books, and then seize on these things as a way of ascribing bad motives to D&D. It's not enough that you find some things badly written (I'd agree with that), D&D also have to be bad people.

I also used deliberate in my post because the theory is basically that those things were a signal of a decision to cut Dornish inheritance as well as prove that D&D are evil.

I have to think that the mention of Oberyn's mother rather than his father was just a mistake, and I don't really think it has any bearing on Dornish inheritance in the show. Oberyn's mother sent him to Dorne in the books because she was the one who headed the House, but I don't see that the "change" means that Oberyn's mother didn't head the House in the show verse too. Presumably Oberyn's nameless father rather than his unnamed mother could have suggested him being sent to the Rock.

As for the Blackmonts, I'd say that it could just as easily be a woman, but from what I recall, the Sand Snakes are kind of unique in being warrior women, and since the show character is a Dornish soldier, it wouldn't make sense for that to be Lady Blackmont. I guess if the show had called the guy Lord Qorgile or Lord Manwoody that would have remedied any Unfortunate Implications.

I actually do think the Lord Stokeworth thing is odd, but I can't really judge yet, since I'm not sure what if anything will be adapted of Bronn's arc.

According to the Wiki of Ice and Fire, one of the Dornish delegation was a Lady Blackmont who came with her children. Looking up the other members of the delegation on the Wiki, the Lord Blackmont on the show seems closer (to the extent any of these people are characterized) to the various Mandwoodys and Qorgiles.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:19:45 PM by Hodor

Missing the point here. It's not about the characters but about the way D&D slant.

Has the story behind Nymeria's name been mentioned in the show yet?

edited 27th Jul '14 7:20:05 PM by MadSkillz

I don't think so, IIRC. Oddly (in a sense), when Arya is Tywin's cupbearer in the show, she speaks of admiration for Visenya, but I don't think Arya references the Nan/Nymeria thing.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:29:26 PM by Hodor

What "slant" might that be? That they changed the genders of a few exceedingly minor character whom nobody remembers and play no role in the story whatsoever?

Honestly, if they were as bad you are describing them, they would have turned the Sand Snakes into The Expendables, Arya into a rebellious teenage son, Catelyn into a Hysterical Woman, Brienne into a Butch Lesbian looking for a "real man" to make her feel a true woman and Sansa into Ramsay Bolton's bride.

EDIT: No, Nymeria hasn't been mentioned in the show yet. If she ever gets mentioned, it'll probably be next season.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:31:33 PM by LogoP

@Hodor Well I'm actually all for the show departing from the books mostly because I don't want the show to spoil me on the books.

At the moment I'm mostly only bugged by changes that make little sense to me, get my inner feminist angry, bad editing jobs and anything to do with wanking Tyrion.

See: Robb Stark and Talisa, Jaime's rape scene, Jaime and Cersei hooking back up, the silencing of Catelyn Stark, Yara and the dogs(which is too bad because I was looking forward to Ramsay versus Yara), Jon and Dany's season 2 storyline(these needed to be completely reworked, Brienne's character, Arya's line about most girl being idiots, Littlefinger's obviously evil tendencies, showing Sansa and Tyrion's bedroom scene from Tyrion's POV etc.

For example YG and Griff being cut are disappointing but whatever I can live with it. The show only has 7 seasons and I'd rather they not rush the ending.

@Logo P You know it's not just that. Need I bring up Brienne's you sound like a bloody woman, Arya's most girls are idiots and Yara cunts cunts cunts again. Also sexualizing the rape circle at Craster's, turning Jaime into that guy that thinks he's owed sex by Cersei, and how she was raped by Jaime.

And then there's the fact that they didn't even acknowledge it as rape and Cersei's back together with Jaime now. Disgusting.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:37:42 PM by MadSkillz

The only things I can agree with are Jaime's rape of Cersei & Yara calling Theon a cunt. Both of the points about Brienne & Arya have been discussed here and refuted.

As for the "sexualization" of Craster's rape den... well, if you think that was sexualized, you must have one weird prespective about sexualization.

edited 27th Jul '14 7:45:56 PM by LogoP

I don't think of either have been refuted.

At most you guys were saying it was in-character for book Arya to say something like that but regardless calling most girls idiots is sexist of that character.

Brienne insulting Jaime by calling him a bloody woman is sexist.

Jaime being so offended by being called a woman that he decides to live is sexist.

You put a pretty good argument that Jaime is sexist to a degree although he is far more progressive than most of the men but Brienne and Arya aren't supposed to be sexist characters.

The Yara one bugs me because Asha actually has a section in her POV where she complaints about men calling women cunts, and so I'm not sure she would use the insult even if it was for the purpose of throwing it back on a male character who would use it (which is how I understand Brienne's insult of Jaime). Basically, Brienne was saying Quit Your Whining, and used the gendered insult because of all of Jaime's gender-related scorn of her.

I do think that Yara is a somewhat rougher character than Asha, but still...

In terms of Jaime, I'm of the opinion that had he returned in the book at the time he did in the show, the Sept Scene would have played out in the same way it would in the show. And I think Jaime in the books is someone who thinks he has a right to Cersei's body- which is one reason he's peeved that other people got access to it when he's done so much for her.

Which isn't to say I like the scene- it's more that I think Jaime in the books comes off better largely as a function of when he arrived at Kings Landing- and so there were both pros and cons of him arriving earlier in the show- ultimately probably more cons than pros.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:11:50 PM by Hodor

The "Yara calling Theon a cunt" scene was clumsy writing. I think it came to be from either D&D not paying much attention to Asha's character in the books or them do paying attention but simply not considering her opinion of that word important/serious enough ^note : though, i must say, it could be just us who take her opinion too seriously .

edited 27th Jul '14 8:11:03 PM by LogoP

Honestly, I felt that Asha's comment in the book was anachronistic- it felt like the kind of thought that a more modern woman might (rightly) think but wouldn't be on the radar of a Medieval fantasy one, especially given that during the Middle Ages, the word was used to describe anatomy, and was not used as an insult (which of course also makes the show anachronistic for using it). I think both the books and (to a greater extent) the show have a case of Did Not Do the Bloody Research.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:17:54 PM by Hodor

Good point.

There is a concept I've encountered called "microagression" and I think it could help in the continuing conversation about feminism and game of thrones. The idea is that someone from a privileged position doesn't think an act is bad/racist/misogynistic because the act is "excusable" or "just a thing" or "not that heinous."

Mad and I bring up often the changes that D&D make are capricious and make no sense and when viewed together or as a narrative it does really seem that they don't get or care about the show they are making. Changing female characters who have their own power into males just so that translates to their audience is a sexist change. Removing a female character whose biggest concern in story is to not be disinherited by her father losing her birthright to her younger brothers is sexist and shows an alarming disregard to the characters.

There are big issues almost everyone can agree on "Jaime raping Cersei is bad" and then there are smaller instances of subtle exchanges that one person may dismiss as "not being so bad" and another person cite as another example of a show's sexism.

When a defense is "this isn't even really sexist, it could be a lot worse," doesn't that make the claim "well this may be kinda bad but I want brownie points for not being completely over-the-line."

But what do you mean by "privileged position"?

"Honestly, I felt that Asha's comment in the book was anachronistic- it felt like the kind of thought that a more modern woman might (rightly) think but wouldn't be on the radar of a Medieval fantasy one"

God forbid that a medieval educated woman groomed to be leader of an inherently sexist culture be aware of the bullshit that men use to insult women.

@Byakugan Thank ye mightily.

-cough- straight cis men -cough-

edited 27th Jul '14 8:43:35 PM by MadSkillz

She wouldn't. Because her education would have been provided to her by said inherently sexist culture.

Hm. Wrong wording from my part. What I meant to ask was that if Byakugan meant it in-universe or out.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:46:00 PM by LogoP

I was raised by two extremely conservative parents and schooled in a Catholic institution.

Somehow my views don't even come close to the views of either the Catholic school I went to or my parents' even when I was a kid.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:49:27 PM by MadSkillz

Parents don't influence a person nearly as much as society does.

My views don't exactly conform to the misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic, racist society I live in now.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:51:06 PM by MadSkillz

@Byakugan:

I'll reiterate again that I think the (unfortunately likely) decision to cut Arrianne is a bad one. Although, while I'm sure you both feel differently, Arrianne's arc in the books feels very Reactionary Fantasy to me as does Cersei's- it's basically a story of a woman who tries to take power and is (according to the story) rightfully put in her place.

I would contest the across-the-board assertion that, "the changes that D&D make are capricious and make no sense and when viewed together or as a narrative it does really seem that they don't get or care about the show they are making." I'd probably agree with some cases, but for many I could provide an explanation of why they do make sense- although, absent Word of God, I can only speculate/reflect on how I would adapt things if in their position.

I do have an overall sense of changes and omissions being done because of budget, lack of certainty of ability to retain current cast members for future seasons/having the budget to cast more people in future seasons as well as the fact that Martin has not yet finished the books. It's of course their own "fault" for adapting a not yet finished series (although they probably expected Martin to get out TWOW sooner- who didn't?), but I think that has a lot to do with leaving things open for the future.

I think the most obvious example would be the other Tyrells and Greyjoy Uncles. They are being kept offscreen until "needed", and the show is cagey about their existence. Or another example where casting did occur is the fact that Shireen wasn't mentioned prior to her appearance and was widely believed to be cut. Similarly, Blackfish and Edmure make a belated appearance but were thought by many to have been cut prior to that. And of course there's Ramsay's situation.

There's a lot of Economy Cast in the show which doesn't always work well, but it is quite apparent why it is done.

@Mad Skillz- Well, I mostly find it anachronistic because it wasn't even used as a slur during that time period (to the extent a fantasy series can be ascribed a real world time period). If it had instead been a scene where Asha bemoaned the use of "woman" as an insult, it wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. It also didn't help that more than one character calls Asha a cunt in the book, and she also uses the word herself during her lovemaking with Qarl- kind of felt like an overload.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:58:28 PM by Hodor

May I ask where do you live?

Mostly because most tropers here are from US & UK and those countries definitely aren't, as a whole, what you're describing.

edited 27th Jul '14 8:55:13 PM by LogoP

I think I understand that they're probably cutting the YG storyline which Arianne is sort of welded to but they should've done something different with her than cut her completely. She's one of the very small amount of Po C females with political power so cutting her is rather significant.

It's already mentioned that Trystane is the heir to Dorne so either Arianne appears and there's no absolute primogeniture in Dorne, she's Trystane's little sister thereby erasing a lot of the political clout she should have had or she's been cut completely. All of these are eye-roll worthy.

Referring to her vagina as a cunt isn't close to the same as hearing a man call her a cunt. She doesn't have a problem with using the word just at its inappropriate use as an insult.

That says so much.

edited 27th Jul '14 9:07:26 PM by MadSkillz

I mean overload because I wondered when reading if Martin had competition of how many times he could use the word in Yara's chapters. It was almost as bad as "nuncle" and "words are wind". And for what it's worth, I think the show way overuses it as an insult and that D&D probably watched too much Deadwood.

This is it's own debate, but I'd question calling Arrianne a POC. While I had thought when reading that the Dornish were as such, Martin says they are white (at least the type from which the Martells derive). And yeah, I'm not sure of how much to make of Arrianne as a woman with power, as the aesop of her AFFC arc seems to be that she should have listened to her daddy.

edited 27th Jul '14 9:12:58 PM by Hodor

You mean the dad whose plan failed and got his son killed?

I don't really remember that but Arianne has brown skin, she's a minority within Westeros and she has Rhoynish blood,

And GRRM literally said that Janina looks like Lady Nym who I believe is Indian.

Also did he say which Dornish because there's three different groups and I could understand if he was referring to the Stone Dornish.

edited 28th Jul '14 12:44:23 AM by MadSkillz

He said that, but then when people questioned Pedro Pascale's casting, he said he saw them as Mediterranean or Spanish and not non-white.

I think there may have been some confusion in Martin thinking that fans interpreted them as black, but his answer seemed kind of strange because there are non-white people in the Mediterranean/Moorish Spain but Martin made it clear he saw them as the white ones. So, despite fans (myself included) seeing them as South Asian and Martin identifying an Indian actress as looking like Arrianne, and Arrianne's official art picture looking Indian, Martin has no idea how anyone could have interpreted the Martells as anything but white.

RE Doran, while plenty of readers have noted that Doran's plans are stupid, the book seems to send the message (IMO anyway) that Arrianne's mistake was not trusting Doran and thinking she knew better than him.

edited 27th Jul '14 9:25:35 PM by Hodor

Well technically he's right.

North Africans and Arabs are also white.

But we as a society see them as Po Cs and we call them Po Cs because their culture and look is so different from the rest of Europe.

In the same sense, it would be fine if we called the Dornish Po Cs.

Or it's Doran's mistake for not trusting Arianne more and thinking he could play her like a fiddle.

edited 27th Jul '14 9:29:49 PM by MadSkillz