Rebuild of Evangelion

If you're holding out for a "everyone grovels in apology to Shinji" ending I suspect you're going to be disappointed.

One of the big messages of the TV series was that in order to be happy, you've got to start from within; external validation won't do jack for Shinji unless he develops some kind of internal acceptance of who he is and what he's done.

acceptance of who he is and what he's done.

Yeah, well, the thing is, forcing that on him and not on everyone else would seem a double standard. The Evangelion themes seem to enforce Cant Get Away With Nothing for Shinji while letting everyone else go without realizing how screwed up they are themselves and how toxic they are for others, and even when they do, they do jack and shit to make up for it or actually improve as people.

edited 8th Oct '13 5:52:23 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

… Not really. I mean, yes, nobody's doing anything to fix their problems, but that's equally true for everybody. The only notable thing about Shinji, in this context, is that we're inside his head the most often. It's not like he's the only one who suffer because of his own bad decisions.

He isn't the only one to suffer because of his decisions, but he's the one to suffer the most because of his decisions, not to mention because of things that escape his control as well.

The Aesop comes off as warped when the narrative expects Shinji to grow up or else, yet for instance, Asuka is well liked and treated despite her personality issues (and her downfall is triggered by an external agent, not because of the kind of person she is), Gendo gets everything he wants until the absolute last moment when his epiphany comes too late and amounts for nothing, and so on.

This is played up even more in other Gainax works like Abenobashi or FLCL, where the audience proxy lead is placed with the 'Grow Up or You Suck' message Gainax loves to hammer down, but the rest of the cast is more or less excused with being dicks, unsympathetic, and having no personal realizations of how much they, too, fail as human beings.

edited 8th Oct '13 6:11:52 AM by NapoleonDeCheese

You're forgetting the part where they're all miserable in their day-to-day lives. And the part where Shinji's ultimate downfall in just as external and last minute.

I don't think any of them is as miserable as Shinji. Misato seems to numb herself down most of the time in her escapist behavior (and to some degree, so does Ritsuko), Asuka seems to be more functional and able to enjoy things like Hikari's company and the praise she gets at school and the job, Rei doesn't even seem to be able to actually suffer until well into the series, and Gendo is too driven to realize how low he has fallen until his last moments.

I'd definitely argue that it's just that we don't see them being miserable as often because we're not inside their heads as often. Well, that and the fact that Shinji's defence mechanism does the least to disguise his suffering.

I think that's overselling how functional the other characters are, and underselling how functional Shinji is. Take Asuka, for instance: we don't inhabit her character the way we do Shinji's, but we do get to see that there is tension between her and her stepmother (which she puts up a false front to hide), that her acknowledged crush not only keeps turning her down (because he's an adult and she's a child) but also shacks up with her guardian, and that her unacknowledged crush keeps spurning her attempts at flirtation while outshining her in the areas she is proudest in. All these things result in numerous frustration shots on her part, demonstrating how unhappy she is with her life.

And also, I'm not sure we should take at face value that Asuka is any more popular than Shinji. She hangs out with Hikari, just as Shinji hangs out with Toji and Kensuke, but she doesn't really seem to spend time with anyone else from school. (For all her attempts to be an Alpha Bitch, we don't ever see her with a Girl Posse, for example). Yes, she was the center of attention the first day at school, but then again so was Shinji!

You also say that Asuka enjoys the praise she receives at school, although it's pretty clear that it does precisely jack shit for her and it's all completely empty.

Or to sum up: basically everyone in Evangelion is horrifically dysfunctional and miserable. (Come on, Asuka spends the latter part of the series crumbling, and then tries to kill herself).

Since Shinji's the protagonist, he's the one who gets the "If you want a happier life, first you need to learn to accept yourself" message actually spelled out to him, but it's applicable to everyone. The TV ending is pretty clear on this, all that "The Case of..." stuff.

I still think Anno will give them all a happy, coherent ending simply because the only way to troll people harder than the original endings is to unexpectedly do that, especially after the bleakness of 3.0.

A happy(ish) ending really is the only thing he can unleash on us at this point, isn't it?

Either that, or something that will be as bizarre as EOTV & EOE multiplied by each other.

Or both.

Somehow.

I hope it's both.

I hope it involves Shinji taking the Marry Them All option.

But it wont.

It will involve Aoba getting swarmed by the little Rei's from the 2.0 next time preview of 3.0.

Or something.

I don't know.

The weird thing is, that it's entirely possible that somebody, somewhere out there on the internet, has actually posted a theory about what will happen in 4.0 which is in some way correct...

Scary...

It's entirely possible, but how many of us predicted that 3.0 would involve a 15 year*

It was 14 years.

And heck, I'm not even sure if Anno knows where to take 4.0, considering all the many unresolved questions and conflicts that it now must give at least some recognition to thanks to 3.0, i.e., Rei II and Kaji's status, what the Key of Nebuchadnezzar does, SEELE's part in all of this, what exactly the "place the Lillin are in" is, how Shinji will find hope, WILLE's attitude towards him now, etc.

Basically, the MGS 4 to 3.0's MGS 2.

I feel like people who complain about 3.0 miss the point. Shinji screwed up royally in 2.0 and he's only made further bad decisions since then. This does not mean that the crew of Wunder is blameless, but that doesn't matter here. Saying "Everybody fucks up" is not an excuse for your own fuck ups, and you need to take ownership of your mistakes.

Shinji is going to get some life affirming message in the end, even if the circumstances are bittersweet. But he has to take ownership for all that he has done.

Saying "Everybody fucks up" is not an excuse for your own fuck ups

It's not a matter of that, it's everyone should end up owning for their own fuck ups, not only the dumbest Butt Monkey of the setting.

Indeed. I'm not saying that he isn't blameless, but he isn't the only one who shares blame.

And again, the act at the end of 2.0 wasn't all bad. It was a very grey situation that 3.0 painted as being completely wrong when it wasn't. Really, I just hope that 4.0 shows that for every poor outcome that comes out of one's actions. that good can come out of it as well. 3.0 should only the former, so I hope 4.0 shows the latter.

I see the point that 3.0 was making. However, I strongly disagree with it and the execution of it. It basically turned it from a case of Grey-and-Gray Morality to Black-and-White Morality, and also expects us to automatically view one side in the right and care for characters who aren't as fleshed out as the two main heroes of the saga so far.

So to sum it all up, I want 4.0 to be much more balanced in terms of actions and consequences.

edited 8th Oct '13 8:13:57 PM by LDragon2

2.0's ENDING WAS NOT CONTRADICTED! THE WORLD WAS ENDING!

Seriously, this is not a case of one film betraying the message of its predecessor. This is not the equivalent of Luke finishing off Vader at the end of Return Of The Jedi despite learning about mercy and honor beforehand. You keep mentioning the Black-and-White Morality thing you claim 3.0 preaches, but it doesn't. Not even close. Nobody in the movie outright suggests that Shinji is some selfish monster for Third Impact. It's presented as a disaster that he has to accept, not a malicious genocide. Why do you insist on pretending that the entire cast is against poor Shinji? Kaworu comes right out and says that it wasn't his fault, but he was still the catalyst and so has to accept his role in it. Asuka insinuates that he's selfish, yes. Why? Because he almost ended the world again because he wouldn't listen and was only thinking about his own personal mission.

No side in the film is presented as being completely in the right, and yet we can see where all the sides and their motives are coming from, even if we don't agree with what they're doing and how. You keep claiming that Anno doesn't know what he's doing, and yet you've consistently said things and made accusations about the characters that the plot actively rejects.

edited 8th Oct '13 8:36:50 PM by Lennik

But the story isn't about them, it's about Shinji owning up to his mistakes.

I really think a lot of people take this really personally because they identify with Shinji in 2.0, sacrificing the world to get what he wants, and don't like the idea that doing that has consequences. Sure Miz has some fault but she didn't make Shinji do Third Impact. He made that decision himself.

We have gone through this before. It's not clear enough how much Shinji could know he would destroy everything or not. Just like we didn't at that point either; I certainly don't remember anyone predicting what would happen at the end of 2.0. And we get as much info at any point as he does, if not more than him.

The adults will always have a bigger amount of the guilt than him (which is not to say he doesn't have any, but it was not HIS, the neglected minor's, choice to be stuck into the EVA in the first place until all but forced into it- you give a blade to an ape, you have little rights to complain about what the ape does with it. And that's without going into how the whole situation was kickstarted by some of them, either).

Implying the other characters don't have to be portrayed as owning to their own actions because the plot isn't focused on them is... a baffling concept. Not to mention the series WOULD benefit of a wider POV range instead of being squarely chained to Shinji to start with.

edited 8th Oct '13 8:46:32 PM by NapoleonDeCheese

Geez, way to completely miss what I was saying.

The ending of 2.0 wasn't 100% right, I agree. And I also get what it was saying, and yeah, maybe Black-and-White Morality wasn't the best trope to use (couldn't think of anything else to use), but my problem is, again, the execution of said themes and messages. It wants to be a statement of, as you seem to be saying, thinking before you act, taking others into consideration, and owning up to your mistakes. However the film doesn't do enough to really make me buy this. For all the talk that the others still care for Shinji, that only comes across in a few scenes, and doesn't do enough to make me accept what you are saying the film is portraying.

It isn't a problem with the message, but the execution.

edited 8th Oct '13 8:50:06 PM by LDragon2

Fine, but the movie doesn't try to condemn Shinji for any of it. The point of view the film seems to take is that he has to accept that it happened and that he was involved, and so he should honestly try to make amends for the sake of doing the right thing, but nowhere does the film take the position that Shinji deserves to be vilified for his failures, only that he needs to acknowledge them and listen to how other people feel. Considering the way Misato refused to kill him and even worried about him at the end, the way Mari still tries to give him a pep-talk in order to help him get his act together, and the way Asuka goes back for him, it's pretty clear that at the end of the day they are willing to consider his feelings, and yet he's failed to do the same for them.

Have you stopped to consider that maybe it's not the film's execution, but your perception of it that's problematic? You've shown here a few times that you're not exactly unaffected by biases when you analyze the film.

edited 8th Oct '13 8:57:50 PM by Lennik

How rational and willing to sit down and listen would you feel after causing the deaths of thousands if not millions without wanting to? At that point, it's a miracle the guy was still somewhat functional at all.

And that changes the results of his actions how? Yes, it's totally understandable that he makes the mistakes that he does. It's understandable that a lot of the characters in the film make the mistakes that they make. But does that stop them from being mistakes? Of course not.