Umineko When They Cry Colored Text
This is a "Wild Mass Guess" entry, where we pull out all the sanity stops on theorizing. The regular entry on this topic is elsewhere. Please see this programme note.
Red Text doesn't only speak the truth - it has another meaning altogether
I mean, people not just speak facts in red, they even laugh in red, give death threats in red, say "You are incompetent" in red... There's got to be some form of hidden meaning!
- Except most of those death threats are carried out on, and it's certainly true that Battler is incompetent back when that line was said.
- Most death threats? Which means some aren't true, that kind of shakes the reliability of the Red Text. Also, when Beato says "With my power, I can create any kind of closed room" in red, is it true or just a way to mock Battler?
- Beatrice is the Game Master, the writer of the Rokkenjima Tale. She can show any event she wants, when she wants. So yes, she can create any kind of closed room.
- She wrote the first two games, anyway...
Things to do with red text
- Solve continuum hypothesis, Riemann hypothesis, etc.
- Determine if Turing-complete function will halt without running it; demolish foundations of modern computer science.
- Check for existence of God.
- After confirming, mock every religion which isn't right.
- It is forbidden to use the red text to directly verify the existence of something supernatural. At best, the phrases "God exists." and "God doesn't exist." are both impossible to say in red.
- It is forbidden to use red text to directly verify the existence of something supernatural in Beatrices game according to its rules. Actually it is normally possible to use red text to deny supernatural. Erika used red to falsify Maria's claim of Beatrice using magic to make candy in EP 6 and Bernkastel used it to deny Beatrices existance in EP 5.
- Trick Beato into self-destructing by reciting "This statement is false."
- Every statement includes an implicit assertion of its own truth. Thus, "This statement is false." is equivilent to "This statement is true and this statement is false." The second statement is a contradiction and thus false. The second statesment and the first statment are eqivilent. Thus, the phrase "This statement is false." will simply be treated as a lie, Beato will be unable to say it in red, but will suffer no further consequences
- Tell the player "You just lost the game" in the very last game. Epic Mind Screw ensues.
- Rather than using the red truth, trick Beato (somehow?) into lying in red to either see if it works or to see her strangle herself on an impossible-to-exist red lie.
Things to do with gold text
- Say nothing said in red so far has been the truth.
- Not sure this would work. The way I figure it is "one interpretation of something said in red is true or you can't say it; all interpretations of something said in gold are true or you can't say it."
- Kill the
Dine's Knox's rules do not apply. In other words, this is not a Mystery."
Green Text is Fourth Wall Truth.
In The Stake's Valentine's Day; Ronove is commenting on how Angel's Horn or Devil's Horn is perfect on Chocolates; when suddenly a Do Not Try This at Home
disclaimer appears in green
comments on how these things are poisonous. Ronove nonchalantly responds to...um...nobody that well, yeah, to humans
, not demons; very well, they'll skip those ingredients.
- However, the Green Text will doubtfully be used in story. Watch me be proven wrong, it'll be great.
- Adding to that, the Grimoire that's added to the TIPS in the Witch Hunt translations use Green Text to explain translation notes of interest and clarifications. Does that fall under Fourth Wall Truth, or has Ryu07 been royally cornered? Either way, it'll be fucking epic.
- Implying green text means anything
- Apparently it's some kind of grimoire text. I went to a screenshot generator for ''Umineko'' and the text section had a hex code for green text, and called it "grimoire text".
- You misunderstood. "Grimore" is how the Witch-Hunt call the the part of the menu they explain their translation. In their translation, every time you see the green text you are to go to the 'grimore'(one page after 'TIPS") to read what the translators had to say about it. Therefore, there, the green text is aimed to the reader. Since it was already this way before Ryuukishi first use it, it could be, indeed, an Ascended Fanon if this WMG is correct.
Gold truth is premise truth
Hopefully it's true nature will be addressed more clearly in episode 6, but since at the time of this writing that cat-box has (barely) not been opened yet we can't quite know that yet. Any references to wording are referring to the witch-hunt translation.
- Despite being a supernatural element the Gold text is accepted even in the face of Knox's 2nd rule. It reminds me of the part of the conversation Dlanor had with Battler where Battler pointed out that there were good mysteries that had secret doors and she responded that in those stories part of the premise was that "secret doors exist", meaning the Knox rules do not hold up against the premise of the story.
- Further The Gold Truth is limited to the master of the kakera, which corresponds to the premise of a story being limited to the author.
- The statement is "I guarantee that this corpse is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse!" a promise from the master of that world that that is true, in the same way that the author promises that a mystery is solvable along the same vein of the conversation above.
- This also fits with the comment about it being both superior and inferior, on par with the red truth, premise of the story could be "Secret doors exist", it is absolute above the red truth as the premise is secret doors exist, yet even if "Secret doors exist" the red truth can still trump that with the Red No Secret doors exist in this room", it falls in line with the premise that "Secret doors exist", yet it overrides the premise to mean "Secret doors exist, outside of this room"
I am not sure if this falls in line with the common "No distortions of the truth" theory because of the "Because it is truly solvable, does not mean it is solvable for you" thing, intentional distortions, yes, but if a stated premise can mean something different to the author and the reader, so the gold could possibly be misinterpreted under this theory.
- I think it's been confirmed that red truth is subjective truth, which made me think that gold truth could be objective truth. Then again, I'm not sure how either would work, so your explanation, which is more thought out than mine, makes more sense right now.
- The gold truth is used to make any true statement using the rules of Beato's game as a basis for deduction.
- That's probably the best way to think of it. I think the easiest way to interpret it without contradicting any of the previous colored truths or the fundamental game itself is to the think of the gold truth like an incarnation of the rules, much like Beato is. Anyone who understands the whole truth about Beato's game can use it and it is allowed to speak any truth pertaining to those rules. For example, EP 5, Battler can use it to guarantee Kinzo's corpse because that is one of the rules Beato's game revolves around, it's part of the core mystery and is an established fact by the rules of the games. Unlike the red truth though, the gold truth seems like it can't be used for any statement outside of that though.
Gold truth is the truth of tyrannicides, geniuses and madmen
It's the truth of those who face the world and say: bring your courts and your judgments, bring your science and your proofs, bring your mobs and your society and your certitude and I. Will. Not. Budge. One. Inch.
It's the only value of truth Kinzo ever respected, and it's the truth Natsuhi served to the bitter end, at the cost of her sanity, and her honor.
If red truth is the truth of authority ('This is true. Do not question it.'), gold truth is the truth of the heart.
- I always thought Golden Truth was the truth of reality, as in depicting scenes as they actually happened, not what other people present or remember them as, or being true from any given perspective, not just any one perspective, like the Red Truth.
Gold truth is 'Kinzo truth'
It can be used to make absolutely irrefutable statements by, of or pertaining to Ushiromiya Kinzo.
Ushiromiya Kinzo does not fear the truth. The truth fears Ushiromiya Kinzo.
Anything stated in red about Ushironomiya Battler can be a lie.
This is an extension of the idea that there are two people named Ushironomiya Battler due to the events in EP 4. Any Red Truth which uses the name 'Battler' can refer to anyone by the name of Battler. As shown by EP 4 there is at least one other person who was named Battler, the alive or dead status does not matter, the important point is that this person existed. Thus any red text using the name 'Battler' could refer to this other Battler, this allows for such possibilities as Battler being the murderer.
- Knox's 1st! It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story! A person that was not first introduced in the first game cannot be named as the culprit! Furthermore, it has been stated in Red that "Battler-kun is not the culprit. Battler-kun didn't kill anyone. This can be said of all games." Because it was stated in Red that the 'Battler' seen in all games so far, including the meta-world Battler, is not the culprit, he is ruled out until we receive a statement in Gold that Virgilia was not referring to the 'Battler' that was in every game plus meta-Battler. Furthermore, because the second 'Battler' was not introduced in EP1, it is impossible for him to be the culprit due to Knox's 1st! I acknowledge the possibility that Knox's Decalogue does not apply to any of the games, but the possibility that Knox's Decalogue DOES apply to the games still stands until disproven in Gold by the Game Master! Even if it is stated in Red, it will not work unless the Game Master states it in Gold!
- This also means that there can be multiple Battlers as long as none of them is the culprit, so Knox's 1st does not apply. That means that the term 'Battler', and anything said about 'Battler', can be applied to any individual named 'Battler'. also...I can't trust Knox's Decalogue if it arbitrarily skips the whole 'Chinaman' rule...
Why are supernatural elements exempt from proof or disproof in red?
It has to do with those damn certain points of view
, and the possibility that you might not know what you were saying in red
To explain that last part (and this is not a WMG, it is a completely hypothetical situation intended only to clarify; please do not attempt to prove or disprove it), assume that Maria unknowingly has an alternate personality called "Beatrice the Golden", who may or may not be based on an actual person. Maria kills someone in her "Beatrice" personality then reverts to her "Maria" persona, and when confronted over it, says "Maria did not do this. Beatrice did."
What Maria meant when she said that is "This murder was committed by a person named Beatrice, who is completely distinct from Maria Ushiromiya." If the Red Truth cared what she meant, she would not be able to say this, as it would be false. However, she can say it
, because the Exact Words
can be interpreted as "This murder was committed by 'Beatrice', who is not 'Maria' (note the quotes!)."
So what does this have to do with the supernatural? Consider the statement "Witches and sorcerers exist."
There are multiple definitions of the word "witch", any of which may be applied to this statement, regardless of what the speaker intended to say
- A person able to reshape reality by force of will.
- A person who, unable to deal with reality, has invented an elaborate escapist fantasy.
- A person who practices a form of magic, regardless of whether or not there is such a thing.
- A cruel woman (as in "she is such a witch").
- A practicing Wiccan.
As you can see, this produces a few possible interpretations. For instance, "At least one member of the Ushiromiya family is a witch
" could mean:
- At least one Ushiromiya can cast spells.
- At least one Ushiromiya is deluding themselves into thinking they can do magic.
- At least one Ushiromiya believes in magic and tries to use it. Whether they actually can or not is irrelevant.
- At least one of the Ushiromiya women is a bit bitchy. (Respondent/Editor: Three guesses who THAT is)
- At least one member of the Ushiromiya family practices Wicca.
Anti-Fantasy stances are not exempt from this either. "Supernatural elements are forbidden
" could mean:
- This universe operates according to all known scientific laws. Magic therefore does not exist except as parlor tricks and delusions.
- This universe operates according to known and unknown natural laws. If magic exists, it follows those laws and cannot be strictly called a "supernatural element".
- There is an organization attempting to exterminate the supernatural. That organization's rules forbid supernatural elements.
- This can count as a WMG regarding the rules for using the Red Truth. As for the info itself, I love it, though, I felt a few added touches were necessary. Hope you don't mind.*
- I respectfully disagree with the OP. At first I thought this WMG was pure, unbridled genius, but the principle that the red text didn't take the actual meaning of the speaker into account doesn't make sense.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember, Battler couldn't say "Ushiromiya Asumu is my mother!" in the red text. If your theory is correct, and the red text doesn't take into account what Battler meant, which was "Ushiromiya Asumu gave birth to me," his words could've literally meant "Ushiromiya Asumu raised me," "Ushiromiya Asumu gave birth to me," and/or "Spiritually, I consider Ushiromiya Asumu to be my maternal figure." Asumu did, in fact, raise Battler, at least for a part of his life, so, if your theory was true, he'd be able to say those words. And, because he couldn't, if your red text theory was true, it couldn't mean anything I said above. However, one of the interpretations listed above was most certainly true,
and so therefore the theory is false.
- Red assertion of the supernatural, if it were possible:
- Would be a forfeiture by the Witch side, since its objective is to force to Human side to testify to it from its own conclusions.
- Would naturally be a concession of defeat if it came from the Human side.
- A Red negation of the supernatural, if it were possible:
- Would of course be fatal to the Witch side.
- As an assertion of Knox's 2nd, it is permissible in response to a Blue Truth. Beyond the scope of that, it ironically becomes a violation of Knox's 2nd, a logical contradiction.
- A global denial of the supernatural would also be a contradiction because the Red Truth is a supernatural means. Even Dlanor's longsword is a supernatural weapon.
To make everyone on the internet start using colored text to discuss mysteries in a visually easy-to-understand method. Face it, Using red and blue truth to argue and debate is way too damn fun.
- This is plausible. Why? Because the OP is right, using the Red Truth, the Blue Truth, and even the Golden Truth to argue and debate is way too damn fun.
- The Green Truth feels a bit left out.
Red Truth aligns the speaker and partially the listener with any and all (more than one) reality where the statement is technically true.
We know that there are different Alternate Universe
. When a witch gives Red Truth; it disconnects the Meta-World from any kakera where the Red Truth is factually not correct. Say, Person A never left the room.
There's an infinite number of possibilities regarding Persons B-Z. And that's not even getting in the Literal Genie
/ False Reassurance
aspect of language. Magic is just one HUGE branch of the Kakera; however, when someone pokes holes in this; the Speaker is dealing with the backlash of being tied to an existence contrary to theirs.
- There are an infinite number of worlds where each member of Battler's family killed off the others because the darkness in their heart was given the right circumstances. Red Truth narrows it down, but just to a "lower" infinite number of realities. (Just because everything exists, though, doesn't mean Highly Improbable events are easy to get to. Some rule not yet seen determines accessibility to those.) Meta-Battler's salvation will be his accepting ALL of his Self. Even if the Piece Battler can be given a reality where neither demons nor his family killed everyone; Meta-Battler will face a hell of being stuck with the realities left behind, where the Golden Ending did not occur. He will be the cast out parts; just like Bernkastel was.
- You're forgetting a key difference between Bernkastel and Meta Battler. That is Bernkastel experienced all of Rika's experiences directly, Meta-Battler is simply observing Piece-Battler's experiences. Note that unlike Rika, Piece-Battler doesn't remember the different arcs.
- Beatrice may be protecting Meta-Battler this way. By letting him develop slowly, the memories won't overwhelm him. He has to learn the Truth himself. For that matter, Bernkastel might be doing something similar.
- So what does choking on the Red Truth mean? There is no conceivable kakera where that truth can apply?
- Either the speaker can't use a Language Trick to sneak out of it; or it contradicts previous Red Truth, or it requires too high an improbability quotient and thus is "too far away."
- So how is a universe in which Battler is Asumu's son "too far away?"
- The 'Cat Box' is in 1986, where Umineko (Mostly) takes place. Additionally, the ability to move from Kakera to Kakera is effectively to move between different 'possibilities', stemming from a certain point. For example if Battler lost his hand prior to his magical romp with witches, he could end up learning to get by without it (Possible), get a prosthetic (Also possible), or have a sweet Gatling gun grafted on (Insane, but probably still possible). However, before beginning to hop kakera he lost his arm, so there's absolutely no 'possiblity' that exists where he still has an arm.
If we want to be more fair and more specific, the point of Kakera-jumping is mostly the point where the victim/kakera-jumper(Rika in Higurashi, Battler in Umineko) has their fate 'decided', so they're given a chance to avoid the fate chosen for them. This explains why Rika could sometimes jump back years and meet Akasaka many times(As Tanako decided that Rika was going down and 'decided' her fate YEARS before putting the plan into action), whereas Battler only gets three days; His fate was 'decided' when he stepped off the boat; if the murders are tied to his sin then he has to be present for them to happen, and if he could jump back further he would eventually find a Kakera where he wusses out of the boat ride, throws a hissy fit and stays home from the family conference.
- Until someone attempted to state in red that Battler was Asumu's son, there was no indication that he wasn't. Up to that point, the identity of his mother was itself a "cat box", and attempting to state its contents in red caused a collapse of the waveform. If the Red Truth transferred the speaker into a kakera where the red was true, it would have forced the waveform to collapse in the other direction, moving him to a kakera where he is Asumu's son but events otherwise happened identically.
The red truth is absolutely unreliable in certain cases
It's not that it's telling complete lies, but the red truth can be manipulated into being used for untrue statements, not necessarily outright lies. The trick is in punctuation. Sometimes, when red truths are spoken, the full stop, comma or the exclamation mark, or whatever is at the end of the sentence is not in red. This might mean that that specific statement was abruptly ended before being completed. That itself is outside of the definition of lying, but still inside the bounds of the rules of Battler's and Beatrice's game. It is a practice akin to 'quote mining', but you could say it's quote mining in reverse.
Here's an example:
If X is true, then Y is also true. The reverse is true as well.
X is true, but Y isn't true.
The third premise doesn't contradict the previous two by a single bit, because the statement hasn't been completed in red, meaning it is still open to be filled in and completed at a later point in time. A contradiction would've arisen if the full stop at the end of the third premise had been written in red.
Furthermore, red truths whose ending punctuation is not in red are incomplete statements, and therefore cannot be considered completely or even partly true, and therefore bear no weight because they can not be interpreted correctly, and have been specifically designed to have the interpreter confused and led astray in his or her conclusions.
Not only that, but what completely undermines the red truth is the very first stament in red, which is:
Beatrice: "So from now on, when I speak the truth, I will use red.
Since the full stop at the end isn't in red, it means that the entire statement is actually incomplete, and is therefore unreliable. Depending on just what is missing, Beatrice's statement might be completely true or completely false, or inbetween. For example, we can fill this statement in in two different ways:
Beatrice: "So from now on, when I speak the truth, I will use red.
Beatrice: "So from now on, when I speak the truth, I will use red, but only in such a way which will benefit me and me only. That means that I am free to play around with words, punctuation, and transitivity of titles and other indicators of personal identity in order to bend and twist your perception of the objective, or in the case of humans as a species with faulty and biased senses, intersubjective truth. I also grant myself the privilege to be the one single entity who is allowed to lie in red. Everyone else is barred from that, and will be punished for that immediately by getting their mouths shut by non-deadly asphyxiation.
If this claim is true, then the second game's first twilight's closed room has been blown open from all sides, and not even episode 4's ???? epilogue red truths can save it from being destroyed!
Red truths made during the fifth and later games can be lies.
The "Red Key" tip notes that Lambda has weakened the Red Key, and on more then one occassion, someone demands that a Red Truth be backed by evidence, even though the absolute validity of the Red Truth is proclaimed in red during the game.
Furthermore, There is absolutely no way for both of the following statements to be true: "The real Kinzo wouldn't say that. Disappear. You, the illusion of Kinzo inside Natsuhi's mind, beautified by Natsuhi to suit her own purposes." and "In other words, on this island, all illusions which might lead someone to mistake something for Grandfather, including someone else pretending to be Grandfather, 'most certainly cannot work'.
- Natsuhi was not mistaking anything for Kinzo! An illusion that would make Battler, Jessica, or anyone look like Kinzo would fail! Nobody has caused Natsuhi to mistake anything from Kinzo. She just sees him because she's genuinely delusional and seeing things.
- What you're saying is that Natsuhi mistook her delusion for Kinzo. Which contradicts the second Red Truth I quoted.
- What is a delusion based on? A delusion is based upon nothing. There was no object, no matter that was confused for Kinzo by Natsuhi. Her delusions were images that have no physical presence. In other words, they were nothing. People are not allowed to mistake "something" for Kinzo, but they are allowed to mistake nothing for Kinzo. There is no contradiction.
- Delusions are caused by problems in the brain, therefore her delusion is based on something, and thus violates the red truth. Furthermore, the idea that Natsuhi is delusional at all is based solely off of Red Truths that I have questioned the validity of, if you would claim she is delusional I demand that you present evidence outside the Red Truths.
- Where does it say that nothing could cause an illusion of Kinzo? Wasn't the red saying that people absolutely wouldn't mistake A, B, or C for Kinzo? Even if A, B, or C would not be seen as Kinzo, the rule doesn't prevent D from causing Kinzo to appear before someone, as long as they aren't 'seeing something that isn't Kinzo' as Kinzo. You haven't crushed my theory that Delusions are allowed even by Red, Troper!\\ I won't give you time to recover, I won't, I'll shatter your 'Contradictory Red Truth' theory with this blue wedge! The 'illusion' of Kinzo doesn't refer to a literal illusion she sees and interacts with, but the way she always thought of Kinzo in her mind when he was alive! Natsuhi's perspective is subjective and based off of Knox's 9th, so it can't be proved whether she truly believed in magic and saw Kinzo in an 'illusion', or knowingly used her imagination to try to say to herself "WWKD". Take that, fall, fall to the deepest depths of purgatory, where my goats will chew on you, chew your bones, and make a soup! You want a taste, tropeeeeer?! Tastes great, doesn't iiiit?! We can let you taste it with magic, ahahahaha-(Insert ahaha.wav here)\\ ...Er, sorry. It looks like I got a little carried away. Either way, I should tidy this up a bit. Alright. About people asking for evidence with the red, That was to force Battler to conform to Knox's 2nd, disallowing him from using a supernatural element such as magical 'red truth'. A good analogy can be how real world trials can have evidence thrown out because it was gathered illegally. The part that makes it hard to think about is that the witch side and the human side are playing the same game, but the rules and moves allowed are different. When Battler tried to play a witch move, Lambdadelta basically said "Yeah, your knights don't move in an L shape. Tough luck." Virgilia said that the game was winnable, she never said it was fair.
- Battler had been using the red truth as a detective tecnique since the second episode. Therefore, Beato's game didn't follow Knox's 2nd. And, thus Lambada's game has different rules then Beato's game. To use an analogy Beato was playing chess and Lambada was playing some other game that happens to use the same equipment. If the rule about using supernatural techniques can be different between Beato and Lambda game, then so can the rule about Red always being true. Even though the absououte validity of the Red Truth was proclaimed during the second game, we had reasonable grounds to doubt it, until Battler attempted to proclaim Asumu is his mother during the fourth game. Since nothing like that happened during Lambada's game we have good reason to doubt any Red Truths made during her game.
- Hold it! Can we really say that Battler was using the red as a detective method in the second game? Let's turn the chessboard around on the most important character in this. Ryukishi. What does Ryukishi have to gain from deceiving us and making Red Truth less valid in the fifth game?
- Ryukishi is trolling us. In the "Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy" TIP we're told we can only consider the Red Truth to be valid if we trust Beato. Later in episode four both Battler and Beato choke when trying to make false statements in red.Thereby proving that the idea that the Red Truth could be meaningless was a red harring. If he did suddenly make it meaningless in episode 5 (thereby fitting what was said in "Anti-Mystery vs Anti-Fantasy"), it would serve to troll the entire fanbase. Also, Ryukishi has stated the game is solvable with just the first four episode, so it's not like we need the reds from the fifth game to be true.
- Ryukishi is a master of the Mind Screw. For evidence, see his recent statement on the Golden Truth and compare it to Lambda's description in EP5.
- I will now show that some of the Red Truths made during the fifth game are false. The majority of Red Truths concern things that we, the readers, cannot verify. For example we cannot search Kinzo's study for a hidden door. However, Dlanor quotes Knox's Decalogue in red several times. The Decalogue exists in Real Life, and therefore we can check whether her statements about it are true. They aren't. In particular even if we allow for paraphrasing there is absolutely no way Dlanor's claim about Knox's Ninth can be true. Checkmate.
- Knox's 9th isn't a valid point; Knox's 5th is omitted entirely, and the two readings of Knox's 9th really mean the same thing. Even if not, it was already mentioned that people argued over how to interpret or write Knox's Decalogue in the TIPS. Them being different doesn't MEAN anything because there is no OBLIGATION to make it a perfect transcription.
- Knox's 5th was never quoted in red, its omission doesn't prove or disprove anything regarding the Red Truth. The reason I cited Knox's 9th is because it is the only rule defined in red that isn't even remotely close to what the original says. Compare, "It is permitted for observers to let their own conclusions and interpretations be heard." and "The stupid friend of the detective, the Watson, must not conceal any thoughts which pass through his mind; his intelligence must be slightly, but very slightly, below that of the average reader. This is a rule of perfection; it is not of the esse of the detective story to have a Watson at all. But if he does exist, he exists for the purpose of letting the reader have a sparring partner, as it were, against whom he can pit his brains. 'I may have been a fool,' he says to himself as he puts the book down, 'but at least I wasn't such a doddering fool as poor old Watson.'" The Umineko version allows for Unreliable Narrators, the real version requires the Watson to not hide his thoughts from the reader. They don't mean the same thing at all!
- Word of God says (on his blog) he would "never do such a cruel trap" such as intentionally misleading by breaking a tool such as "Red Truth can lie." It would go against the Fair Play of his game. Therefore, ARGUMENT INVALIDATED
- Why should we care what Ryukishi07 says the stories were written by Maria Ushiromiya and Toya Hachijo. Also, even if he did write them he could be a Lying Creator. Not to mention, Death of the Author. Word of God only counts when it is backed up by the source material. In other words, an argument that relies solely on the author's blog post will not work. It's possible that the rules regarding the Red Truth were changed (thereby explaining why the characters treat it differently), but that every Red Truth happened to be true anyways (hence Ryukishi07's claim), but that would be a violation Knox's 6th.
It has always been possible to lie in red.
We've been misinterpreting the choking scenes the entire time. As far as we know both Battler and Beato honestly believed what they were trying to say in red when they choked. I propose that rather then preventing the user from lying, the red only stops them from being mistaken. For example Battler could have said that Ange is his mom in red, because he knows that it's false.
Ryukishi07 is lying
in the below statement concerning the Golden Truth.
In EP 5
, we were told that Battler's use of the Golden Truth was proof that he understood the rules, including Beatrice.
Ryuukishi: That's right. The gold text is something that anyone can use if they understand the rules of the game, so ultimately, even 'pieces' in the game can use it. That's probably why Beatrice the elder could use it too. It's like a hidden finishing move in a fighting game that anyone can use if they know the right commands (laughs).
I'm sorry, but what. He goes to the trouble of saying in-script that it can only be used by the Game Master, and then turns around and says anyone who understands the rules (and Beato by extension) can use it.
- When the hell did he say that it was only usable by Gamemasters? The statement is intrinsically wrong since Battler uses it before he's crowned Gamemaster. Alternatively, anyone who understands the rules is a Gamemaster by definition.
- Counterproposal: Lambda lied to Bern about how the golden truth worked in order to conceal the nature of Beato's magic from her and support Battler's counterattack.
- (OP here.) Two problems with that. (1)Bernkastel and Lambdadelta are on the same side, so there's no point in Lambda lying to Bern. (2)Even if they were NOT on the same side, Lambda would not have a reason to lie, since she wants the game to continue endlessly and "trap" Bern in the game forever.
- That's a contradiction. Bern wants to end the game, so giving her more truthful information about the gameboard can only cause it to end faster. Also, Lambda's actions strongly suggest that the claim of "wanting an eternal stalemate" is itself a lie. Although she's frequently deceived Bern, she's never taken an action that didn't ultimately help Beato and Battler in some way.
- (OP here.) Knox's 8th! It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented! Provide evidence for your Blue Truth, if you wish for it to be acknowledged!
Golden Truth is 'Promise Truth'
We have very few statements of Golden Truth. EP 5
's "I guarentee this corpse is Kinzo's!" and one about a flower pedal stating "This pedal was made with magic. It was a very good magic", or something along those lines(As EP 6
is untranslated and OP doesn't remember the exact phrasing".
I propose that Golden Truth is a promise from the one who understands the whole and utter truth of the statement! It's a promise from someone whom you're debating with that this is an absolute truth which he/she can prove in some way in an undeniable way
. It's like saying "I have Red, and I have evidence that exists in the human world to back it up."
In other words whether it's weaker or stronger then red is determined by whether or not tropes such as Lying Creator, Flip Flop of God, Running the Asylum, etc. are being used.
- So let me get, this straight, Red + Solid irrefutable proof = Gold? Sweet heavens, it's so crazy, it just might be canon!
- So what was Battler's irrefutable proof of Kinzo's death prior to every game?
- (Respondent here.) I would say the scene in EP5 where Natsuhi, Krauss, Nanjo, and (possibly, not certain) Kumasawa are in Kinzo's study and the old fart has just passed away. The one where Natsuhi convinces the others to pretend that Kinzo is still alive.
- ...Um, so? Not only is that a flashback provided by supernatural means, but there's no empirical evidence left behind that Battler can use, such as a diary or anything.
- (Respondent here.) A diary belonging to Natsuhi was mentioned in EP5. Battler can ask for the date of Kinzo's alleged death and compare Natsuhi's entry against that of a more "sane" person (say, Nanjo's records) and voila, confirmation. This is (1)one of many possible ways|(2)the only possible way for Battler to confirm Kinzo's death. It has been stated that Gold needs a check for absolute validity. Furthermore, anything said in Gold can be said in Red, but not always vice versa. Finally, Kinzo has been stated in Red to have already died before the events of October 4 and 5, 1986, therefore, Battler (1)can|(2)must use that as well to confirm that the corpse is Kinzo's. Counter that, if you can! You can't, can you? This! Is! CHECKMAAAAAAAAAAAATE!!!
- Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Where was it stated that Gold needs a check for absolute validity and/or that all Gold statements can be said in red, but not (always) vice versa?
- (Respondent here.) Mmm. Well played. It's stated on this wiki's Main Page for Umineko, which, upon consideration, stirs a question of my own. Where the hell did they get it from? Anyone up for some snooping? In the meantime, I demoted the statements in question until they have some support from the series itself. Valid support can come from either of the three versions of the story so far. The games or either the manga or the anime should either one ever get to where the Golden Truth is explained.
Golden truth is witness testimony.
- There is no objective means of proving that a particular corpse belongs to Kinzo. Battler proved that it was Kinzo's corpse with golden truth. Therefore golden truth is not objective.
- Battler's proof succeeded without him providing evidence. Therefore, golden truth does not require evidence.
- Battler's proof was not blocked by Knox's 2nd. Therefore golden truth is not supernatural.
- According to Ryukishi, golden truth can be used by humans.
- It has been demonstrated in the sixth game that golden truth can be used to lie.
- Red and blue truth correspond to the Lambda's certainty and Bern's possibility, respectively. By extension, golden truth should reflect Beato's power of endless magic.
- Beato's signature golden butterflies appear when a false scene is presented. This represents a use of golden truth on the game board, either by Beato or by humans.
Witness testimony is considered true until proven to be unreliable, so the burden of disproving it is on the detective, like a reverse blue truth. In the total absence of evidence, it becomes true automatically, which is why Battler's proof of Kinzo's death was successful. However, if any contrary evidence is presented, the gold becomes ineffective.
This also makes gold the primary means of attack for the witch side, because it can be used to present a claim that some mystery was accomplished using magic. The detective is then obligated to disprove it by raising objections in blue, which the witch can deny with red. The detective wins if all of the witch's golden truths collapse.
Gold Truth is Valid Conclusion Truth.
In Logic an argument is valid if and only if the conclusion follows from premises, whether those premises are true or not. A Sound argument is a valid argument where all premises are true. Golden Truth is the conclusion to a valid (but not necessarily sound) Logical argument. Red Truth a True premise or statement, and Blue "Truth" is a premise or statement of an unknown truth value. If another color text is introduced it will be Sound Argument truth. As for what premises Battler used to construct his argument in episode 5... if I knew that I would have written this theory's title in gold.
The Golden Truth is really Beatrice's Heart
The Golden Truth is in fact not technically as strong as the Red Truth, but it's a piece of evidence used as a rule or a premise within the game which is not to be broken... thusly it can be used as a Red Truth, as the point of the game is to disprove something that could be stated in Gold. If any Golden statement is disproven then the witch side loses instantly, as the rules have effectively been shattered with a warhammer.
- So what does Kinzo's corpse have to do with Beatrice's Heart?
- Unless Beatrice is some sort of Frankensteinian Zombie, nothing physical. Kinzo's Corpse is part of the 'rules'. A better way to put it is 'The Golden Truth is this story's Anthropic Principle. Denying that it's Kinzo's Corpse if it's stated to be Kinzo's Corpse in gold is effectively the same as playing a game of chess and putting the king in your pocket to protect it when it's in a position of checkmate.
- So basically, the Golden Truth is the statement of rules of Beatrice's game. This, in a way, combines the idea of "Beatrice's heart" (as Beatrice is the embodiment of the rules), premise truth (as the rules are based off the premise), AND explains Ryukishi's statement that "even pieces can use the Golden Truth." After all, if you're in an RP and a player starts godmodding, you can accuse them of breaking the rule "No godmodding allowed", even if you're not the GM.
The reason the creators introduced colored text?
They wanted pages like this to look pretty, and so the fandom overthinks the colors and confuses itself. So, in other words, they're secretly in league with Tite Kubo
Whether someone counts as a person for the Red Truth is chosen by the speaker at the time the statement is made. In other words all Red Truths related to the number of people on the island are useless.
It is forbidden for the red to confirm or deny the existence of supernatural elements. "6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead!"Shows that furniture count as people. When combined with the fact Battler saw every mundane character (except Erika), on the island, while he was the detective. and "No more than 17 humans exist on this island!!"This denies the existence of the Stakes, the Siestas, Ronove, and Gaap. Which the Red Truth cannot do. But, if we take the later statement to mean "No more than 17 entities which meet some Criteria X (which I refuse to explain and could change at any point) exist on this island!!", then no problem arises. This also explains the apparent contradiction at the end of the sixth game different definitions of person were being used.
Note howver, that an Unknown Person X committing the crimes is still impossible due to Knox's 1st and 8th.
- This theory is largely unneccesary. It's already been demonstrated that magical characters don't count as humans. And in most cases, 'human' and 'person' are derived from the same Japanese word in the translation, so trying to make a semantics argument that they're different doesn't work.
- Part of the Fantasy Premise is that Kanon, Shannon, and Genji are magical characters, and they count as humans/people. Also, my theroy doesn't rely on "human" and "person" having different meanings from each other. It proposes that who counts as a human/person is chosen by the speaker whenever the word is used.
- In the magical perspective, Kanon and Shannon are also counted as human because of their love with George and Jessica. It's very likely Genji was gay for Kinzo, but that aside, Battler's seen them with his own fucking eyes, so questioning their existence or trying to shed doubt on them is completely futile, unlike the magical characters, who musn't be referenced one way or another to make the game far.
- Kinzo is also listed as a person in red. According to the Fantasy Premise Kinzo is also the sorcerer Goldsmith. Sorcerer is the spear counterpart of witch. Therefore, the existence of EVA and Virgilia is denied, which the Red Truth isn't allowed to do.
- Actually, Kinzo is a Magician, a human who can use magic, according to the Fantasy Premise. Witches/Sorcerers are people who have "transcended humanity." So yea...not valid.
- My mistake. However, Sakutarou and one of Maria's toy rabbit was shown to have been destroyed by Rosa. According to their profiles Sakutarou was destroyed by ROSA, and Siesta 556 was destroyed by the "black witch". The Siestas represent Maria's rabbits to some extent. Thus, the "black witch" who killed 556 is obviously Rosa. Furthermore, the use of all caps in a character's name indicates the character in question in a witch. Rosa is listed as one of the fifteen dead people near the end of the third game. Therefore, Rosa is both a person and a witch.
- Just like Maria, yea. But Beatrice, by her own definitions, is not a Person, just a Witch. For what it may be worth, in Beatrice's narrative, she is a Great Witch, which Maria and Rosa are not.
- The precise japanese phrases used in this example are '人間' (by Erika, WH translation 'humans'; wiktionary) and '人' (by Be/Ba, WH translation 'people'; wiktionary). These are different sequences of characters; arguments about them having different meanings can therefore not be dismissed at this time! In particular, the translation of '人間' as 'humans' is dubious since the term can apparently also be translated as 'character' or 'personality'. The possible implications of this should be obvious.
The Red Truth will allow any statement confirming or denying supernatural elements regardless of whether or not they are true.
Given the rule that the Red Truth can't confirm or deny supernatural elements. How else would saying statements like "With my power, any kind of closed room can be created or destroyed"
and "Your so-called candy magic is nothing more than a sleight of hand!! Just a sleight of hand that the fake witch calling herself Beatrice or whatever claimed was magic!!"
be possible? Also, since the Red Truth is itself a supernatural element statements like Red only tells the truth
don't contradict this theory.
- Regardless of the method, if the culprit "Beatrice" is creating closed rooms, she's doing so with her own power, magical or otherwise. The second statement is never stated in Red, so it's completely invalid. So this theory has nothing to stand on.
- Erika, made the statement about the candy magic in red during the sixth game! You're not trying to calim that scene was falsified are you? Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. If you would claim that scene was falsified you must present evidence to support that claim!
- Beato claimed in red that she had the power to create any kind of closed room. The use of the word "any" indicates she could create closed rooms that can only be created using magic.
- Not really, as it's stated in EP 6 that you can't do anything with magic that can't be done by mortal means. "Any" doesn't state it can create impossible closed rooms, only that it can create any closed room Battler will encounter.
- That is simply one character's belief, and was never stated in red.
- Dlanor used Knox's 2nd to stop Battler from using the Red Truth during the trial..Therefore, The red truth is a supernatural element. The statement, "The death of the four in the cousins' room has been proclaimed with the red text!!" shows that the red exists. Since the red is a supernatural element the red can not be used to prove that the red exists without violating the rule that forbids the red from being used to confirm the existence of supernatural elements.
- Technically, no. Dlanor has the ability to seal the use of Red for an entirely different reason that has nothing to do with Knox's Decalogue. She can basically just seal it without needing a reason as part of her execution rights.
- So she just cited Knox's 2nd when she stopped Battler from using the red because she felt like it? Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not presented. Where is it ever indicated that she is someone who would do such it thing?
- It's in the TIPS, if you bothered to read them. Also, when she sealed Gaap's blue without giving any reason, even though it was perfectly valid. And there's really no legitimate reason to believe that Knox's rules even apply, so Dlanor's just running on an assumption and acting on that basis either way.
- Fine, I concede that Dlanor sealing the red doesn't prove it's supernatural. However,Knox's 4th. It is forbidden for unknown drugs or hard to understand scientific devices to be used. Neither the Red Truth nor anything that would have the same function existed in 1986 in Real Life, in fact nothing of the kind exists even now! Therefore, the Red Truth must be a supernatural element.
- The Red Truth also doesn't exist on the Gameboard, so it's supernatural status is absolutely irrelevant to the Decalogue, as the Meta-World, strictly speaking, is not part of the mystery. I am noticing a trend in the WMG page wherein people are confusing matters of context and relevancy when making speculations.
- Wasn't the statement "I never told anyone except Shannon that I like Fall." on the gameboard as a Red Truth? Either way, the only character who we are told is a homunculus doesn't exist on the gameboard either (having died 19 years prior) But, the red still can't be used to confirm or deny the existence of homunculi.
- No, that Red's not on the Gameboard, strictly speaking. And whether or not the Red can confirm homunculi is irrelevant. You're overlooking the fact that the Red is barred from commenting on the supernatural in order to make the game fair and playable, not due to metaphysical possibility.
- Nevertheless, my claim that Erika's candy magic statement would violate the rule against using the Red Truth to deny supernatural elements unless it was possible for that statement to be a lie has not been countered.
- Er, yes it has. When Erika was arguing with Maria, she wasn't playing Beato's logic game, she was just bullying a little girl. And Erika's a fucking bitch who doesn't respect the spirit of games anyway. The Red Truth has no metaphysical barring against commenting on the supernatural. It's just that in the context of the Meta-World games, it can't be used in such a manner to make the game fair and reason-based.
- According to the Red Key tip it is possible for restrctions to be put on the use and power of the Red Key. The Red Truth can normally be used to confirm and deny the existence of supernatural elements, but Beato restricted its abillity to do so when she made the rule against using the Red Truth to confirm or deny supernatural elements.
- Yea, pretty much. It can still be used to confirm and deny supernatural elements, like when Bernkastel decided to destroy the illusion of Natsuhi having tea with Beato, but it's technically against the 'rules of the game.' It's like moving a pawn three spaces; you COULD do it, but you shouldn't.
We're all overthinking the Red Truth
Yes, there are some lines that are questionable and we need to look out for Jedi Truths, and there are a lot of messes which make human murders seem impossible, like the web of red in EP 3
, but the important thing is that the red can't tell a lie. It isn't that Ryukishi doesn't want us to think, but he wants us to treat the Red Truth as unforged, untampered evidence for the mystery rather than trying to confirm the validity of every footprint
When Ryucakes reveals that the Red Truth was about 20 times simpler than we're all imagining, then that Untwist
will have Mind Screwed
us not just on the 'Shit that happens in the story' level, but in on a Meta-level so heavy that it would be like Arthur Conan Doyle
having written a cookbook with an Excuse Plot
, him having told us it's a cookbook with an Excuse Plot
, and us having read so far into the death of one supporting character that we didn't realize it was a cookbook until we realized we knew how to make a tasty quiche after reading.
- We cannot say whether there will be a twist or an untwist regarding this matter. If we, let's say, expect a twist regarding the nature of the red truth, and get an untwist, then that's a meta-twist by itself. However, if we expect an (un)twist, and get exactly that, then that's some sort of a meta-untwist. We can take this to the n-th degree, and end up completely confused. In the end however, this whole is binary - we will get either an n-th degree twist (1), or an n-th degree untwist (0) in the very end. I will now introduce the 'Schrödinger truth': it lets us analyze the circumstances and draw a conclusion regarding the probability of there being a twist behind the red truth:
- There will either be a twist or an untwist/absence of a twist regarding the red truth. The probability at this point for either to be is equal.
- Anything Ryuukishi states outside the novels might be a red herring, and therefore anything he reveals outside of the novels can not be regarded as reliable information. Therefore, the probability for X to carry the value of 1 is equal to the probability for X to carry the value of 0.
- The red truth is founded on the fallacy of bare assertion. Basically, the red truth claims it's telling the truth at all times, but nothing other than the red truth itself can confirm that. That is a huge loophole, what means that there is a great chance for a first-degree twist to be lodged there, waiting to be exposed. However, this is only a postulate. Therefore, this isn't reliable information either.
- Any hint or revelation regarding the red truth before a certain (unspecified as of now) point in the storyline might be a red herring.
- After examining these four statements, we can say nothing but that a first-degree twist is equally possible as a first-degree untwist at this point in time. (Keep in mind that the 'Schrodinger truth' is not really a truth, but rather a tool which may or may not help us judge how something might develop in the near future.)
- (OP Here) However, an aspect of the WMG isn't that not every absense of a twist is an untwist. What we're dealing with as for the nature of the red is four possibilities, not two:
- A Twist - There are some bizarre rules to the Red/Gold which are revealed near the end which blow open a hole in the case.
- Absense of a Twist - The rules of Red/Gold are laid out in enough detail that they make perfect sense before the end.
- Type-1 Untwist(True Untwist) - Red/Gold is simple but implied to be complex... but isn't.
- Type-2 Untwist(Self-Inflicted Mind-Screw) - What this WMG postulates. Red is exactly what Beatrice said it is completely straightforwardly, gold is not all that much more complex, and we're just working ourselves up to the point where we're doing Ryukishi's Mind Screw work for him.
We need to adopt the Schroedinger's truth from the above WMG for our arguments.
There will be a (1)twist|(2)untwist/absence of a twist regarding the red truth. The probability at this point for either to be is equal. Anything Ryuukishi states outside the novels (1)is|(2)is not a red herring, and therefore anything he reveals outside of the novels (3)can|(4)can not be regarded as reliable information. Therefore, the probability for X to carry the value of 1 is equal to the probability for X to carry the value of 0. The red truth (5)is|(6)is not founded on the fallacy of bare assertion. Basically, the red truth claims it's telling the truth at all times, but (5)nothing|(6)something (such as people lying and choking on red) other than the red truth itself can confirm that. That (5)is a huge loophole, what means that there is a great chance for a first-degree twist to be lodged there, waiting to be exposed|(6)is only a postulate. Therefore, this isn't reliable information either. Any hint or revelation regarding the red truth before a certain (unspecified as of now) point in the storyline (1)is|(2)is not a red herring. After examining these four statements, we can say nothing but that a first-degree twist is equally possible as a first-degree untwist at this point in time.
- Seriously, it's awesome. Although it needs a simpler color to write and use. I propose Purple. Schrodinger's cat is neither alive nor dead, and the Schroedinger's truth, an analytical truth rather than an absolute truth or a theory, also exists between them. Purple is a fusion of red and blue, and is a worthy color for the Schrodinger's truth.
- Isn't Schroedinger's Truth effectively the same as Blue Truth? They serve the exact same function and properties.
- Schroedinger's Truth is used to indicate that one of two or more possibilities is correct (like the red) without mentioning which one. I propose that we use Schrodinger's Truth like this:
In other words, purple is used to indicate parts of a statement that can be spoken in red, and grey indicates the parts that are still uncertain. Numbering is used to indicate logical connections between possibilities, as in "If item W is true, items X, Y, and Z are true, and vice versa. Items W, X, Y, and Z will therefore all be numbered 1."
- So it's basically identical to using multiple Blue Truths. Got it.
- Not quite. In fact, there are many incorrect uses of the blue on this WMG, as Blue's nature is not to postulate the rules or evidence, but to provide a theory which behaves as a solution to a given problem. Schrodinger's truth is not a truth of providing a theory, but to analyze the validity of a theory.
- All Blue Truth is is to posit something that may or may not be true. This Schroedringer's Truth is not only needlessly complex, but it's purpose has already been canonically filled by other instances of the Blue.
- Blue is used to declare hypotheses, Schroedringer's Truth is used to declare that if X is true then Y must also be true. For example, " The victims were all killed by Battler, therefore, the culprit is Battler" means that if Battler killed the victims then Battler is the culprit. It's actually closer to red then blue.
- Then it could be called the Truth Of Alternate Possibilities, as the possibilities include at least one Red Truth and at least one Blue Truth. This interests me more and more as it continues to unfold.
- Again, Blue Truth already works this way. Infact, this is the exact format Beatrice and Ange used it in during the scene wherein they debated Battler's parentage. This truth is redundant.
- (6th respondent here.) Blue Truth proposes only one possibility, while Schroedinger's Truth proposes multiple ones, among which, is the real truth, not a twisted or omitted truth, but THE truth, the WHOLE truth, and NOTHING BUT the truth, so help us Beatrice. Furthermore, to recite what the original creator of Schroedinger's Truth said of it, "Keep in mind that the 'Schrodinger truth' is not really a truth, but rather a tool which may or may not help us judge how something might develop in the near future." Schroedinger's Truth is not redundant.
- The Blue Truths regarding Battler's qualification and by extension his parentage are as follows:
Due to the previous demand to repeat, and the subsequent refusal, I proclaim that you are not qualified to be my opponent. After all, Beatrice opened this game, in order to fight with 'Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson Ushiromiya Battler'. This gave you responsibility as my opponent, to declare in red that you are 'Ushiromiya Kinzo's grandson Ushiromiya Battler'. You have refused to repeat that. This means the loss of your qualifications.
People's names are not exclusive. There is a possibility that multiple humans have the name Ushiromiya Battler. In short, this is what it means. ......You are a different person with the same first and last names as Ushiromiya Asumu's son Ushiromiya Battler.
The one who is qualified to be Beato's opponent is 'Kinzo's grandson Ushiromiya Battler', and whether you are 'Asumu's son' or not is no problem. Thus, even if you are not Asumu's son, you can be Kinzo's grandson. As long as you are Rudolf's son!
None of those followed the same format as the Truth of Alternate Possibilities.
: (6th respondent here.
) Due to the introduction of the Purple Declaration in EP8, it is called for that this be re-colored. I propose Orange
for Confirmed Red and Brown
for Unconfirmed Segments.
One Truth, Two Truth...
, Blue Truth
Gold truth creates gameboards.
Ryukishi says anyone can use the gold, even pieces, but Lambda says only a game master can use it. This way, neither of them is lying. The act of using gold makes a new board with its own truth, and the speaker defines that truth, so that person is by definition a game master.
Battler was able to use this as an underhanded proof method in EP5. Since Kinzo's corpse couldn't be identified on the main gameboard, he first created a new sub-board where identification was possible (or maybe had his piece create it by lying). Then since red truths can apply to individual games, he was able to use the premise he'd defined as a basis to establish Kinzo's death in red on his own board, rather than Lambda's.
The various colors of text were based on the countries the make up Oz
Putting aside white we have Green, Red, Blue, Gold, and Purple text. Oz consists of the Emerald City (green), which is surrounded by the countries of the Quadlings (red), the Munchkins (blue), the Winkies (yellow, which is obviously just a mundane way of saying gold), and the Gilkins (purple). In fact, once we factor in the fact that people are required to wear green tinted glasses in the Emerald City it could very well correspond to white as well.
The gold truth is the golden key
- A. In order for the red truth to be used to support a human-side theory, it must be backed up by evidence.
- B. There is a "golden key," a mystery at the center of umineko that once discovered unlocks all of the other mysteries.
Thus, the purpose of the golden truth is clear. If someone was to create a human-side theory, and use evidence related to the key, it would reveal the secret to everyone. Thus, the golden truth is the right of those who know the truth to waive the need to actually state the evidence to ones opponent. So to give an example.
- Battler: X is the culprit
- Dllanor: Can you back it up with human side evidence?
- Battler: X is the culprit because Y
- Dllanor: What's Y?
- Battler: Telling you would ruin the mystery and defeat the witch side, that's why its a golden truth.
The Golden Truth is the use of Braun Tube in colour
- Okay, i haven't read through Chiru perfectly but to me the use of the golden truth seems pretty easy to understand when you think about it (at least it's use in episode 5). The game says it is stronger than red in some cases and weaker in some. Isn't that rather similar to the Braun Tube that they talk about. For example at the end of Episode 5 where Battler says that Kinzo is dead in gold, if you use the Braun Tube argument here then it means that it works as a blue truth that only can be countered by opening up the tube and if the golden truth is correct then it is stronger than Red while if it is wrong it is weaker.
- The way that you use it here makes it...identical to Blue Truth. Because Blue Truth is already the Braun Tube metaphor.
The Superior/Inferior nature of the Golden Truth
Let's start from a Red Truth:
Ushiromiya Kinzo is dead at the beggining of all games.
From this truth, it is possible to draw this Golden Truth.
I gurantee that this is Ushiromiya Kinzo's corpse!
The Red Truth above is the foundation for the Golden Truth. Kinzo has been guaranteed dead, and other red truths throughout the games make clear that the corpse is found during the games, hence the corpse must be in the island, being possible to find and present it. Which can mean that the corpse is availabe to be presented, making possible to state the Golden Truth.
A case of an inferior Golden Truth is the one that states that Beato used 'magic' with the overturned cup.
You used magic to create a golden flower petal inside an overturned cup. It was a splendid bit of magic.
Magic CAN be denied because the game was made with riddles that can be solved. Beato used the same magic that has been used before, and it was declared as a 'splendid display' because it was done perfectly. Remember that Beatrice said that simply saying magic exist in red would not make a game. Seeing this way, that Golden Truth is inferior because a blue truth revealing the 'trick' would defeat that particualr Golden Truth, but following the rules of the game it is still not a lie.
I believe the Golden Truth is like a Red Truth, which is true as is 'to the letter'
For example, from this Red Truth:
There are only five master keys.
We could have this Golden Truth
A sixth master key will never be found.
The Golden Truth is truth that would only be Golden to readers who figure it themselves.
Though it's still a bit of a plot hole, it's a trivial one. By issuing Golden Truth, Battler demonstrated to Game Master LambdaDelta that he understood the solution so comprehensively that any further examination and argument would be a formality, and this is why she accepted it. If he were to lay out the actual clues and arguments leading to the truth, then the readers wouldn't be able to come to the solution themselves, and the truth would no longer be Golden.
Later, Featherine said that anyone who knows the Golden Truth would be able re-write the whole story and it would be just as true as the ones already written, thus Battler's game design had all the veracity of each of the previous episodes. This could also be Ryushiki07 giving his blessing to fanfics written by players who had solved the mystery.
Why elder Beatrice was able to use Golden Truth validates the fantasy interpretation just as much as the mystery. I haven't completely figured out why yet, but I suspect it has something to do with the premise, "Without love, it can't be seen." Here's where my guess gets wilder: because she can observe from within "the cat box", she can see all the consistent histories that the contained superposed states decohere into, so she knows every one of them is truth.
Red Herrings in Red Truths?
C'mon, why would the colour of the Language of Truth
be red? Anyway, as stated above, the Red Truth has nothing backing it up except Beatrice's word and the threat of choking on the lying words. Besides, there are a variety of examples above that show that the Red Truth's truthfulness is largely subject to the viewpoint of the speaker.