Headscratchers / Iron Fist (2017)

Season 1

China trip

• How was Claire able to go to China with Danny and Colleen without a visa?
  • Danny's a very rich man. He can arrange for these things.

Kidnapping under the radar

• How were Danny, Colleen and Claire able to load a kidnapped woman into a private jet, unload her in NYC and drive her to the middle of Manhattan without anyone noticing?
  • Danny's a Rand. He can arrange for these things.
  • Besides which, given Madame Gao's attitude during the experience, she probably didn't put up any resistance that would draw suspicion. All the better to screw around with the team's minds and reflect the contempt with which she held them. Getting caught probably was part of her plan.
  • I think Gao wanted to be captured, so she could get under Danny's skin, and rattle him even more. Or if not wanting to be captured, not being fazed that she was captured. I doubt ending up in Bakuto's custody was part of her plan, but again, she doesn't seem particularly worried...

Joy at the end

• Why is Joy listening to Davos whom she never met, and who appears to be working with Madame Gao, in apparent mutual agreement to take revenge on Danny despite her knowing her father was insane and falsely framed Danny? What reason does she have to seek revenge on Danny as opposed to her brother?
  • Second'd. This bothered me too, especially because it appeared to come out of nowhere.
  • Think about it from Joy's perspective. She doesn't know half of the things that happened, and she has been disrupted psychologically. It's easy to blame Danny, because this all started when he showed up and started meddling with their lives. Especially when someone like Davos might be twisting her ear and manipulating her. Furthermore, consider that Ward had lied to Joy about everything from the purpose of business deals to Harold's "death", so by the time he tried to tell her about how dangerous Harold was, she didn't believe him and Harold was able to manipulate her. And we'd seen signs of her being shadier earlier in the season: remember that Ward was content with taking his severance and walking away, while Joy immediately considered using compromising photos of Lawrence and the other board members to blackmail the board.
  • I don't think her Face–Heel Turn was out of the blue. Whereas Ward was always internally conflicted, and eventually turned himself around, Joy was always a bad person who strove to be a worse person. She drugged someone who she honestly thought could be her childhood friend. She was complicit in letting Danny rot in a mental hospital. She didn't want Danny around to ruin the company's image. She used her relationship to him to keep him from enacting more positive change at the company. She was glad to not pay up for the chemical plant cancer lawsuit. She even looked the victim in the eye and said no. She looked up to her crazy sociopath brother (and later found out those qualities actually were just Ward all stressed out from being Harold's puppet). She hired Jessica Jones to collect blackmail months or years before the events of the show. She was willing to do whatever it took to stay afloat. She just had a conscience problem. Little moments where what little bit of good in her interfered with business. And the motivation was always there. It's also worth considering that even twelve years after it happened, Joy was still really really suffering and hurting from her father's "death". She was also still sympathetic with Harold after finding out he was alive, even though Ward kept telling her that Harold was pure evil. So I also believe that Joy might be believing that Danny tore her family apart and took her father away from her again.
  • It has a lot to do with Harold. Ward was constantly under his thumb. He couldn't live his life how he wanted and was pressured into his role by a manipulative man. Joy was the prodigal daughter. She learned her role without guidance from Harold. When she found out he was still alive that bond was great. She loved her dad. Then the revelation about him shook her world. Whereas Ward could suddenly be the man he wanted to be, a good man, Joy's look on life was shattered somewhat. She's in turmoil and in my opinion, easy to manipulate. Life was good for her before Danny came back, and if she's convinced that Danny died on the mountain and that this isn't really Danny, she can justify her revenge on him. She's not above doing brutal things to get what she wants, even if she feels bad about it after. She really is her father's daughter. Ward, I feel was a product of his situation.
  • Worth noting is that all Joy says to Davos in that last scene is "I'm listening". Which was Harold's response to Bakuto's proposal as well. These scenes are almost mirrors, with an enemy of Danny's seeking cooperation with a Meachum after failing to recruit Danny directly.
  • Joy is very shrewd. "Information is power," and she would naturally try to acquire as much as possible, even if it's information that she hated, is scared of, or plans to flip later.
  • Joy said she wanted to be a good person but all the evidence shows otherwise: she's a ruthless corporate shark, which by itself doesn't necessarily make her evil, but does mean she regularly approaches moral quandaries from a self-interested, commercial perspective. There was that whole thing with the organ donor kid (which seemed less-than-ethical and borderline illegal) as a way of getting Raj Patel to agree to the pier deal. She looks up to her father to an unhealthy degree, even when Harold clearly fucked over her and Ward (I mean, tying their sizable inheritance to working at Rand?). She is aware that her brother, the CEO of their company, has a drug addiction to oxy/vicodin and doesn't even try to stage an intervention until he's really falling in too deep. She gathered blackmail material on Rand board members "just in case" - not a sign that she's the ethical corporate manager she says she wants to be. So ultimately, for Joy it's much easier to just blame Danny for everything. In Joy and Danny's encounter on the street in the ninth episode, Joy said something to the effect of, "It's all your fault. Everything went to a shit after you came back. Why did you come back?" So Joy's turn to the dark side at the end was a little clumsy, but it didn't come out of the blue either.
  • Here's a Tumblr analysis that I believe provides a pretty plausible explanation for Joy Meachum's behavior.
    • Basically, it began when Joy found out about Harold being alive and well. Much like Jessica was in season 2 of Jessica Jones concerning her mother, Joy found out that she had been living under a decades old lie. Danny of course found out earlier and only agreed to keep it from Joy to protect her from the Hand. This burdens Danny, as he doesn’t enjoy being dishonest with her anymore than Ward hates it. Joy is so conflicted, confused and shocked about her father she doesn’t know how to handle this situation. And strangely she’s more angry with Danny about the lie than at Ward, who kept her in the dark for years. Yet despite Ward’s continuous warnings that Harold is dangerous, Joy can’t let him go. Because like with Jessica and her mom, and like with Danny at the start of the first season of Iron Fist, Joy’s hope has been rekindled. And why would she regard Ward at this point after the lies and chasing him down for his drug habits? Joy sees her father alive in front of her. She wants that relationship with Harold back again because she misses it. She needs it.
    • And as much as Joy wants to be happy her father’s alive, she can’t be. Something prevents those feelings. And Joy starts noticing Harold’s dark, more sinister behavior. It scares her. He gets physically violent and short-tempered easily. And he tries to screw over Danny’s right to the company which Joy wholeheartedly objects to. Then there’s Harold’s dealings with the Hand which put Joy smack dab in harm's way when Bakuto shoots her to lure Danny out of hiding. By the end of the season, Joy’s more damaged than ever. But its not the bullet wound that has her in agony its the betrayal of all people she loves. Her brother. Her father. Danny. All of them let her down in ways she can’t discern. And because of that she’s officially closed the door on everyone. On the verge of making irrational decisions based on emotion; something she doesn’t do being as logical minded as she is. It's landed Joy in the cross-hairs of Davos’s feud with Danny and no doubt he will do whatever means necessary to take advantage of her fragile state.
  • Joy's shift isn't really too surprising. In episode 3, Ward needs Joy to help him close the pier deal and she does this by figuring out that Raj Patel has a sick son who needs an organ transplant, so she finds an organ donor who is about to be taken off life support and arranges for his organs to never go on the national donor registry but instead to be discretely traded to the pier guy. When she reveals this to Ward and the pier guy, even Ward, who just moments ago hired guys to kill Danny, is like visibly horrified. In episode 8, Ward is likewise shocked to find that Joy hired Jessica Jones to take photos for a blackmail file on all the Rand board members "just in case". And it's implied that there are dozens of other shady things that Joy is doing at Rand on a daily basis. Ward might be the only one aware of the Hand's true nature, and the extent of their dealings with Rand, but as Chief Counsel, Joy must have realized that Rand was being used by shady people for shady purposes. That kind of stuff tends to show up in risk analysis and legal affairs. There's a reason why these two particular actions were a shock to Ward: because most of the shady stuff he does in season 1 is because his dad made him — both in the sense that Harold made him do those things, and Harold made him what he is. Once Ward gets out from under Harold's thumb, he's sort of an okay guy. But all the shady stuff Joy does, she comes up with herself and does on her own initiative.

Recruiting more help

• Claire suggests that Danny will need help to fight the Hand, but doesn't try to reach out to Matt or Jessica Jones. Why?
  • Jessica is not really someone who would just enter a battle with a secret clan of ninjas without some incentive. As for Matt, well, yes, he did take on a couple dozen of the Hand's ninjas (with an assist from Frank Castle). However, based on some of Charlie Cox's recent interviews, I get the feeling Matt's going through a bunch of serious internal problems at this time, like mourning Elektra, and rebuilding his friendships with Karen and Foggy. So he's probably not up for going up against the guys that kidnapped Karen and killed Elektra.
  • Even if Matt was still active as a vigilante at this point in time, it's not like he would jump at a team up just because Claire called him up. He teamed up with Elektra and look how that turned out. Hell, Matt and Claire aren't exactly on the best of terms at this point anyways, given how she lost her job at Metro-General after his enemies attacked her place of work.
  • Claire probably doesn't want to involve Matt because she still cares for him, even if she isn't romantically interested in him anymore. Let us not forget she totally wasn't about Matt fighting as hard as he did. On top of that, most people don't put the people they know in the face of danger. She saw one of her own friends get gutted in front of her. She warned them and they were practically strangers to her, but still. Inviting a former lover to a scenario where he barely made it out a few times is just an awful decision. Not only that, at the time she knows nothing about Colleen or Danny. It looks like a rich boy and a karate teacher going against Triad ninjas.
  • There is first the question of whether or not Matt is still doing the Daredevil gig after everything that happened in Season 2. The last we saw onscreen of Matt was him coming out to Karen. The Defenders' fake Bulletin covers seem to suggest Matt might have temporarily hung up the Daredevil suit. It's possible he's not currently doing it and that's why Claire didn't call him. Or alternately, they just lost touch.
  • There's two explanations: an in-show explanation and an out-of-show explanation.
    • The out of show explanation: forced character separation. With the exception of Luke and Jessica, the writers wanted to avoid having these characters meet pre-Defenders. And to a point, it makes sense. Iron Fist is Danny’s show, his big introduction to the MCU, and having Matt gatecrash his moment in the spotlight would have been a major disruption. Danny and Colleen needed to achieve their own victories. It’s the reason why Claire stays on the street during the climactic confrontation with Harold. It's the reason Claire’s “lawyer friend” didn’t actually make an appearance in Luke Cage season 1, despite all of Luke’s legal issues. It’s the same reason Luke was sidelined during Jessica and Trish’s final confrontation with Kilgrave. It’s the same reason the Avengers didn’t appear en masse in Captain America: The Winter Soldier or Iron Man 3.
    • The in-show explanation: It's revealed when Matt is introduced in The Defenders (2017) that he quit being Daredevil after Elektra died, and he's probably cut off all contact with the people connected to that part of his life. It’s possible that Claire did, in fact, try to reach out to Matt, only for Matt to give her a very polite but firm "No".

Proof of Danny's identity

• Jeri complains that there's no proof of Danny's identity. No birth record, no medical history, nothing. Except Danny was famous when he died. So famous that random homeless people on the street remember the story of his disappearance fifteen years later. But when records of this extremely famous person start disappearing, nobody thinks to think it suspicious? Jeri complains that it's inconvenient, but doesn't point out that it could be evidence of a coverup. He definitely existed, nobody denies that. In fact, Danny even interrupted part of the coverup while it was in progress. And it's not just pulling a file, the guy set a fire that must have destroyed hundreds of people's medical records and nearly killed an innocent woman. Why doesn't that get brought up during the arbitration? Burning records in a hospital isn't a normal thing. But nobody even questions it.
  • Because Danny would need to prove that it WAS a cover-up, which he can't without evidence. No one is going to accept that there was an attempt to destroy evidence simply based on Danny's say-so, especially since it took him forever just to convince people that he was Danny Rand.
  • A major theme of the show is that people in power can get away with a lot and make things fly under the radar. Proving that this coverup happened would be an uphill battle in the first place (no one besides Ward and Danny knew that Danny had a file there, so there's not any way to prove that the arson was in any way connected to Danny or the Meachums or any of it). All of that is circumstantial. Proving they were covering something up isn't the same thing as proving Danny's identity. To prove Danny's identity, they would need a DNA match (which couldn't happen because there was no pre-accident Danny DNA on file anywhere) or a fingerprint match (same issue). Even if they could prove that the Meachums hired someone to torch that room, it doesn't mean Danny is Danny. Even if Dr. Edmonds testifies that he thinks Danny is Danny, it doesn't prove that Danny is Danny. Remember that the doctor only believed him because of the story from Joy...all anecdotal evidence.
  • What about dental records? A son of a billionaire from New York born around 1990 doesn't have some dental records? Considering that dental records are significant enough to the point that Harold is banging out the teeth of people he killed with a hammer a few episodes later.
  • Because someone (probably Ward) was paying people to destroy any official records of Danny so he can't prove his identity and therefore can't claim his share of the company. That's why the medical records were torched.

Gao the Pretender Hand?

• Is Madame Gao really part of the Hand? Because I keep getting this impression that she, and Bakuto and his guys are just masquerading as The Hand for some reason or another, as Gao was quite clearly not on terms with Nobu, and when the Hand came back in Season 2 of Daredevil, Gao's only appearance had her in competition with the Blacksmith for the heroin trade, which doesn't make sense for her if she's a Hand agent.
  • It's possible that Bakuto wasn't lying about there being a schism, or multiple schisms, within the Hand. He does keep Gao locked up even after Danny learns that Bakuto is also a member of the Hand, seemingly without cause. The other leaders of the Hand that we've seen could just be from different factions. In an organization as old as the Hand, there are bound to be splits over methods and immediate goals. Remember the strife that Wilson Fisk and Cottonmouth dealt with within their organizations? Think the same thing on a larger scale, and with a couple more centuries for these disagreements to build up.
  • Colleen mentioned Gao's group was a rogue faction of the Hand. This explains why Gao knew a great deal about Nobu's clan, and kept giving warnings towards Fisk and others. She was running her own splinter group.
  • Gao seems to be primarily interested in expanding her heroin empire and manipulating events from behind the scenes. If she really is as old as its claimed then then she might simply be no longer interested in the grand ambitions of people like Nobu or Bakuto and might view them as younglings too hungry for power. The more traditional Nobu gives her respect and does not antagonize her. In contrast, Bakuto sees her as a relic that stands in the way of a more modern Hand.
    • In "Nelson v. Murdock," Madame Gao discusses with Fisk about how he managed to make it look like Matt took out Nobu when it was Fisk's intention all along for them to kill each other. Unless the temporary death of Nobu somehow benefited Gao, Fisk should have been in huge trouble right then.
  • There seem to be an "old guard" and "new blood" in The Hand. Bakuto indicates that Madame Gao was part of the old guard of the Hand that didn't gel with the modern Hand's philosophy. It's possible that Madame Gao had to resort to using Harold, Fisk, Vladimir and Anatoly, plus her Rand Enterprises influences, to get her product (and influence) on the street because the Hand infrastructure created and cultivated by Bakuto rejected her. The same goes with Nobu: Maybe Bakuto allows Nobu's presence but doesn't support his goals completely. However, Nobu was behind the blood donors from Daredevil season 2, and Bakuto was going to have Colleen hooked up to a similar system for her failure before she escaped. Which suggests at least some level of cooperation between Bakuto and Nobu, but it does not mean they agree 100% on everything else, either.
  • Nobu's clan seemed to be closer to Bakuto's clan as they both seemed to be okay with brainwashing children, draining blood for a mysterious purpose, and possibly bringing back the dead. It seems the two clans were after the same goal but used different methods. I think it's just a matter of Nobu being more willing to join forces with Gao, albeit briefly, whereas Bakuto wanted Gao dead. In fact, Bakuto might have known Nobu allied himself with Gao and after his death, realized Madame Gao was too dangerous to live.

Danny's first attempt to enter Rand Enterprises

• Is it me or is the receptionist in the Rand lobby a bit overreactive? Someone walks in - admittedly he looks like a barefoot hobo - and he asks to speak to the boss, and instead of saying Harold Meachum has passed away, she says "you can't" and has him physically escorted out the door by security. Why did she go straight to "call security" instead of first asking Danny to leave and only calling security when he didn't? Why not tell him that the new boss is the son and then offer to call up to set an appointment, then when told that is not going to happen, ask him to leave and when he doesn't, only then call for security?
  • She clearly just assumes that he's a crazy hobo who needs to be removed from the place of business as quickly as possible, so she immediately calls security to begin the process.
  • Rand is a billion dollar multinational corporation, even if he was dressed professionally you can't just walk into that kind of business and demand a meeting with the CEO. Add the fact he is dressed like a hobo, talking like a crazy person, and asking to see a man everybody considers dead she was quite justified in calling security.
  • Also, the CEO seems to have been a very public figure and I imagine his death was well published. What do you think will happen if a homeless person walks into Apple's main office and asks for a meeting with Steve Jobs?
• This is far from the only Headscratcher surrounding the opening scene. Why did Danny look like such a mess in the first place? My first impression was that his experiences left him touched in the head, but we later see that he is very much in his right mind. He was clever enough to have bought a fake passport in order to return to the United States, and he got Joy on his side by reminding her of their shared hatred of brown M&M's, yet it never occurred to him to stop by a local homeless shelter for a free shower, haircut, and some donated clothes?
  • He looks like a hobo because he's been living as a hobo since coming back from K'un-Lun. He had to get from the Himalayas to NYC with only the clothes on his back. His lack of care for his appearance is acknowledged in the show. He comments with exasperation, "Why does everyone keep talking about the way I look?" He's coming from an ascetic, monastic culture that doesn't put stock in appearance. He realizes that he doesn't look fancy, but he naively expects people to hear him out and not prejudge him based on his appearance before he has a chance to prove his identity.
  • That would make a lot more sense if he was brought to K'un L'un as a baby and had no way of knowing what to expect when he arrived in New York. But he wasn't.
  • He was a ten year old boy, who spent over half his life in K'un L'un. He probably forgot what he would consider a small detail, since before he came to K'un L'un he wouldn't have really had reason to think about appearance besides 'this is what the people I know look like'. Especially since he was really sheltered, being home schooled and apparently only having the Meechums as friends.

Missed Opportunity in the final fight

• During the final battle, Danny ambushes Harold and knocks him to the ground, and then runs away. Why not kick him while he's down or at least restrain him?
  • Only explanation I can think of is him still shaken by Harold shooting his hand, thus choosing to run instead of finishing the job.
  • The show is trying to have Danny do hit-and-run tactics to wear Harold down and deny him an opportunity to fire back, but it made a mistake by having Harold drop the gun. If Harold had held onto the gun and started firing wildly as he fell, it would have made sense for Danny to retreat back to cover. As filmed, Danny just makes a tactical error by running away when he has Harold at his mercy.

The Russians are back in business?

• When Madame Gao is in her secret office in "Felling Tree with Roots," her assistant, listing off the gangs doing business with them, says "The Russians have agreed to carry our [heroin] product exclusively." Weren't the Russians wiped out when Wilson Fisk blew up their hideouts and whatnot?
  • The Russian brothers that Fisk was working with are dead and their organization gone, but it's been long enough that new Russian criminals were able to rise up. Note that they appear to be entirely unconnected to Fisk's Russians; Anatoly and Vladimir were human traffickers and distributors, while these new guys seem to just be drug dealers.

The K'un L'un Gate

• Bakuto shows Danny a clip of an Iron Fist protecting the passage to K'un L'un. That clip is said to be from 1948. It is also implied that the passage is open every 15 years or so. Following that logic the passage would have been open 1963, 1978, 1993, 2008 and 2023. But the show takes place in 2016. How does that work?
  • Related: When Danny is stranded in K'un L'un, he's in the midst of snowy mountains. Nothing but rock and snow. When he guards the passage, and when he and Colleen go to K'un L'un, the same thing: snowy mountains, nothing but rock and snow. So why does the clip from 1948 show that Iron Fist fighting soldiers in a dense forest?
  • Danny mentions in the first episode that it's about every fifteen years, depending on celestial movements. As for the location, maybe that Iron Fist was ranging a bit farther from the gate. Danny seems to have spent his brief time as guardian sitting right next to the actual gate, but a mountain pass can be miles long. Maybe the 1948 Fist was at the opening of the pass and attacked the Japanese when they got too close.
  • When Danny is first depicted guarding the pass and chatting with Davos, they explicitly state the way had not yet opened. Danny was posted there because they knew it would, but not exactly when. So yes the magical dimensional portal is a little random. Also Danny was ordered to stay in the pass for a reason. He was only recently made the Iron Fist and not fully trained in the power yet. The 1948 IF was fully trained, older, wiser and a bit more proactive, seeing the army getting to close to the portal and cutting them off well ahead of it. Also it's the Chinese army not Japanese.

What actually is the Hand's motivation? What are they trying to accomplish?

• Maybe The Defenders (2017) will answer it, what's the Hand's overall goal? Gao's group seems focused on selling opiates. Another group seems to vaguely mention corporations running the world, so it sounds like they are anti-big corp. Nobu's group was focused on bringing back the Black Sky, who they describe as the ultimate weapon, so I'm guessing it's a super powerful dead person they're trying to bring back. They seem to be all over the place.
  • In Season 1 of Daredevil (2015), Gao states that the heroin is basically a means to an end. It's not their exclusive forte, it's just something they are doing to make money. She also says that she answers to someone higher up too, just like Nobu. It's possible their leader is the same person even though they are splintered into different factions.
  • They seem to be trying to amass an army and bring about some kind of ultimate plan that is yet to be revealed. In fact, someone on Reddit suggested that The Hand is like a large company, and the different factions are like different parts of a business: you've got Gao handling the money side of things with her drug trade, Bakuto handles the recruitment and PR, while Nobu seems to handle special ops.
  • It's almost certainly some form of world domination. Bakuto's scene where he tries to recruit Danny seems to reveal the most about their (or his faction's) ultimate goals. He talks briefly about New York City being a cruel place of corruption and urges Danny to help him remove "the Gaos of the world." The means they use (at-risk youths, drug money, Black Sky, etc.) seem to vary by faction, and their vision of the new world probably does as well.
  • Of course they are all over the place. They are a criminal organisation/cult. Fisk was all over the place too with gentrification, protection racket and drugs dealing. The Hand is a larger scale version of Fisk's organization.

Madame Gao and Wilson Fisk

• This might be a question better put on the Daredevil headscratchers page, but did Wilson Fisk know that Madame Gao was allied with Nobu or not?
  • It's possible Nobu and Madame Gao kept their involvement secret from Fisk, essentially getting twice the territory under the guise of being two different entities. It even gives Nobu all the more reason to be there for their meetings. In fact, that's pretty much the most likely scenario, given that Wesley genuinely didn't seem to know what Nobu brought to the table.
  • Pretending to be separate entities would be of benefit to the Hand's alliance with Fisk. I'm not sure if that would be necessary, but maybe Fisk was more comfortable with smaller groups working under him, so he could take them apart more easily like he did the Russians. If he knew the true scope of the Hand, perhaps he wouldn't have wanted to work with them.
  • Fisk seemed to treat Gao more as the drug baroness she is than as a member of the Hand.

Easily Forgotten Magical Powers

• When Danny first lays a hand on Madame Gao after the tournament, she very easily slams him into a wall with telekinesis. Aside from the Iron Fist, this is by far the most flashy mystical ability anyone has displayed on the show...and she never uses it again, even while being apprehended. Sure, Gao might have been Captured on Purpose, but Danny himself never takes any precautions against it, and doesn't question why Gao is suddenly a powerless old woman.
  • We have no idea what Gao's limits are. It's quite possible that she can't use that ability very much, just like Danny can't use the Iron Fist very much (though the footage of the 1948 Iron Fist shows what Danny should be able to do, if he had trained more). The easiest explanation is that, despite her powers, she's still a tired old woman who can't overexert herself too much. She's like Yoda in Star Wars; Yes, he's a powerful Force-wielder and the best swordsman the Jedi have, but he still needs that cane to walk. Gao is a lot like an evil Yoda, actually.
  • The simplest answer is that she chose not to fight him and let herself be captured. Her character might be an immortal witch, but her actress is still 73 years old, so writing around fight scenes is understandable.
  • Like the earlier comment said, it's likely that while Gao has some powers that help her resist being manhandled by common schlubs, she knows that she's not powerful enough to win in a full-on, toe-to-toe fight with an Iron Fist, so she doesn't try.
  • The first thing Gao does when she's captured is manipulate Danny and try to convince him to come with her. It's apparent she wanted to be captured.

Killing Harold in a fight is wrong, but incinerating him is okay?

• After Harold dies for the second time, we learn that because of what the Hand did to him, he can come back from the dead as long as his body isn't completely destroyed. In the season 1 finale, Danny and Harold fight and Danny has the chance to kill him, but refuses to do so. It seems Danny finally agrees with Claire that killing your enemies makes you just as bad as they are... But then, at the end of the episode, Danny, Ward, and Jeri are watching as Harold's body is being cremated. Given Harold's ability to come back from the dead, cremating his body is pretty much the same as murdering him. So how come Danny is suddenly a-okay with this? Even if the cremation was Ward's decision, it's doesn't seem like Danny is against it.
  • No one (except Claire) was explicitly against killing Harold per se, but there seemed to be a If You Kill Him, You Will Be Just Like Him! thing going on. Specifically, Colleen believed if Danny killed Harold in anger, his chi would be corrupted. What exactly that means is not clear. Does it mean Danny will go insane, or go evil? Whatever it is, it's bad. The Iron Fist is a warrior and meant to kill, but with clarity. Burning Harold's body was Danny's job; removing a Hand abomination and removing one of their pawns.
  • Presumably, Ward (and maybe Danny) justifies it by simply noting that Harold is dead at that period in time, so the proper thing to do is to lay the body to rest — whether or not Harold will be resurrected is immaterial, it's a question of treating the dead with due respect. It just happens that Harold's estate decides to go for cremation...
  • Well, stopping someone to come back even more monstrously isn't bad.
  • Also, one assumes that when Ward shot him, and Harold fell off the very tippy-top of the Rand building, his head was still attached to his body after he landed. Bakuto said that decapitating Harold was the only way to kill him, but if the fall reverted him to chunky salsa (almost a certainty at that height), then he ain't comin' back, and cremating him is just laying his body to rest, as mentioned.

Letting Gao get away

• In the final episode of season 1, Danny and Colleen visit Bakuto's now-abandoned training complex, and find that Gao is still in her jail cell. After questioning her and getting some answers they... just leave her there? It should be obvious to Danny and Colleen that Gao's faction of the Hand will eventually come and free her, which seems to be exactly what happens, as by the end of the episode she is free again. So why don't they take her and lock her up in some other place, where her henchmen wouldn't be able to find her? After Danny has cleared his name, they could take her to the cops and have her tried for her crimes. Even she wasn't the one who ultimately killed Danny's parents, she was still an accomplice to that crime, not to mention the drug business she was running through Rand. Why would Danny and Colleen let one of their most powerful enemies simply slip away?
  • How? Danny and Colleen are fugitives from the law at that point. And it's highly likely that by the time Danny and Colleen's names are cleared, Gao was gone.
  • In case you didn't notice, the answer to "how" was already included in the original question, but let me repeat it here: So why don't they take her and lock her up in some other place, where her henchmen wouldn't be able to find her? After Danny has cleared his name, they could take her to the cops and have her tried for her crimes.
  • Sure, what place is that? Her henchmen are magic ninja and she usually looks like she willfully stay imprisoned to gather intel on the heroes or to reveal to Danny he is being manipulated by the Hand. Colleen and Danny didn't do it because they don't know any other places that can holde her and they don't feel like killing.

Joy and Jessica

• We learn in the eighth episode that Joy apparently hired Jessica Jones to do some digging "a while back", which included taking compromising pictures of other board members. One thing that's unclear is, had Joy hired Jessica explicitly for blackmail material (which is she proposed to use the photos for once the board ousted her and Ward) or was there some other reason she'd want this information?
  • It's just for blackmail, Joy even says it's something she thought Ward would do and was trying to emulate him.
  • The scene where she is explaining the blackmail scheme to Ward already answers why she collected the compromising photos. She was pretty sure Ward had a drug habit, but he was mostly functional and good at his position within Rand Enterprises. The photos were a contingency plan in case someone else found out about his addiction and this threatened his standing with the board. It just happened that the first time she found she needed the pictures was after getting voted out of the company, rather than Ward's addiction issues.

Colleen's cage fighting

• At the beginning of the series Colleen participates in illegal underground cage matches to win money to keep her dojo running. Ostensibly, it's to show that the Dojo really isn't doing so hot. But later in the show, it's revealed that her sensei Bakuto is with The Hand and Colleen too is with The Hand, and Bakuto is her sponsor. Seeing how Bakuto has the means to run a state of the art fight training and surveillance academy/ outpost for The Hand, what was the point of Colleen participating in her cage matches when she could have asked her Hand allies for money? Especially since she's a recruiter for the Hand, meaning Bakuto is obviously paying her something.
  • It's made pretty clear that Colleen gets some guilty pleasure out of using her martial arts the way she isn't supposed to. The money issue is simply an excuse with which she tries to justify it to herself.
  • It's possible that the Hand withhold money from their members in order to make them more loyal. As mentioned by the future doctor that Colleen sees to get antibiotics, you help the Hand by doing your job.
  • Colleen didn't even want to take Danny's money. Not to mention she was clearly lamenting the fact that she was so broke she couldn't afford to make renovations until Danny bought the building her dojo is based out of. She wasn't getting anything from Bakuto as she was broke.
  • Just because Colleen is a member of the Hand doesn't mean they throw out money left and right to whoever needs it. Otherwise what's to stop you from having an army of Hand Mooks who stay home and play XBox all day instead of working proper jobs? The Hand wants loyalty, but they're not a charity.
  • Colleen is apparently expected to self-sustain She might be able to go to her master and ask for money, but that would be admitting a failure on her part, which is something she obviously doesn't want to do.
  • It's also worth pointing out that she is running a very public business, as a secret organization The Hand can engage in whatever criminal activity it wants without drawing attention but Colleen has to uphold the image of being a normal person with normal sources of income in case anyone looks too closely. I'm sure the IRS would love to hear about how the owner of a small dojo with a modest number of students is swimming in disposable income.

What is the timeline?

• Just how long was all these events happening? A month? Episode 1 seems to take two days, while next episode seems to be a day. After that it seems to get hazy.
  • I think the show takes place over the span of about a month or so.
  • I believe one of the later episodes states clearly how much time has passed since Danny returned, but I honestly can't recall. I believe the whole season spans a few months.

The chemical plant liability

• If that chemical plant WAS discovered to in fact cause cancer, doesn't that mean Rand IS liable, even if they didn't technically break any environmental laws?
  • Not in criminal court, as long as they were following the EPA standards, Rand wouldn't be liable. That's why they have the standards in the first place. If the plant was causing the cancer it could be used to lobbyists in Washington to get the EPA to create stricter standards, but that's about it. In civil court, where the standard of proof is much lower, the cancer patient families might have a chance of winning, but that depends on other factors that weren't mentioned in the show. Consider that that video ended up throwing the company into a Catch 22 situation, where settling gives the impression that there's something to hide, but they still look like they're avoiding admitting fault if they don't settle.
  • I know Ward made a lot of points about the pitfalls of settling in this case, but would it be more worth it to settle? Because companies the size of Rand settle lawsuits against them all the time, rather than drag out a legal process that could take years.
  • Given they exploited Danny's soft side and asked for more I think they'll just ask for more if he accepted the settlement, because if they are willing to settle for something that they aren't liable to, it is kind of a problem. The legal process wouldn't take years since has Joy showed that everything is up to standards and they have to prove the cancer is caused by the factory alone which is kind of hard since cancer is a bit harder to link to one factor than lead poisoning.
  • In real life, a suit like this would be dismissed as frivolous (in fact I imagine that it would be unlikely to make it out of the discovery stage where the lawyers for all parties meet and exchange evidence) and I can't imagine that the Meachums wouldn't also report the suing party's lawyer to the Bar Association for a severe ethics violation.
  • If they wanted to settle, they could resort to something just shy of blackmail ("You will settle this suit for this amount and in return, we will not file a complaint against your attorney with the Bar Association").

Kyle's body

• At some point the terrarium is going to start to smell with Kyle's body in there. Given his propensity for killing people, why didn’t Harold have Singleton dump the body?
  • He was pretty insane at that point, making a lot of bizarre decisions (killing Lawrence, per se). He wasn't thinking clearly.

Regrowing finger

• So how did Harold's left pinkie regrow after his second resurrection? Is that just something from the Hand's resurrection process that we didn't see before?
  • If the body comes back from death, there would have to be some regenerating involved. Harold had a few stab wounds in his torso. The only way he would be able to stay alive afterwards would be to have those holes in his gut heal themselves. It would certainly explain how he never got cancer again. Keep in mind, Nobu was set on fire in Daredevil and came back with only a few facial scars to show for it (we can imagine Harold had some chest scars but we never see him shirtless, so we don't get anything to verify if they're there).

Framing Danny

• How was Harold's framing of Danny even vaguely plausible? The information used was based on Madame Gao's operations, which were vast and dated back decades. Even if he altered the dates to make it begin more recently (as in not when Danny was 10 years old), an operation that big couldn't have been set up just since Danny returned. And he couldn't have started it before he came to New York City because he had no control over Rand until then and using Rand's facilities to smuggle drugs was the whole point. The story makes no sense but everyone, even Hogarth, acts like the evidence is airtight.
  • Harold has money so he can do it. I mean, they tried destroying evidence and built a false identity to keep Danny committed in the first few episodes, and Daredevil, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist really harp on how rich and connected people like Fisk, Mariah, and Harold can use their money and influence to get away with their crimes.

Claire and torture

• When Claire first appeared in season 1 of Daredevil, she helped Matt torture that Russian goon for information. She barely knew the man (Matt or the Russian). And let's be honest, beating info out of people is kind of Matt's MO. And yet in Iron Fist, Claire is completely against torturing Madame Gao, who she knows is evil, and is behind a huge drug operation that's affiliated with the Hand in major ways. Which makes wonder, what caused Claire to have a change of heart with regards to torture? Was she tired of seeing suffering? Did Luke influence her? Did she not want Danny to go down Matt's road?
  • Madame Gao is an elderly woman while the Russian was a young man. It's one thing to see a mob soldier get roughed up and watching the same happen to an old lady.
  • It's not like she liked it and even hold that as why she feels uncomfortable starting a relationship with Matt.
  • She also gave Matt a pointer on how to most effectively cause pain to Semyon to get him to answer straight away. It was basically a case of "if it were done, best it were done quickly." Matt was going to keep pounding on this guy until he got answers, so Claire just made it quicker and more efficient. With Danny and Gao, she's trying to stop the torture from starting in the first place.
  • Also, keep in mind that the Russian mobster just got through bragging about kidnapping a little boy with the implication that he would be sold into slavery (possibly sexual slavery). Up until that point, Claire didn't want anything to do with the Russian's torture. As evil as Gao was, she wasn't involved in that sort of thing (that she knew of), so Claire was more likely to remain calm.
  • After the Hand's attack on Metro-General, Matt is definitely not one of Claire’s favorite people (remember that Karen and Foggy aren't the only people he burned bridges with). As Claire sees it, Matt’s ways weren’t working out so well (although they were working out well enough that she used his cause in an attempt to motivate Luke), so it’s possible that when she sees Danny (unknowingly) using something from Matt’s bag of tricks (torturing Madame Gao for info), she doesn’t want any part of it. And after what she experienced with the Hand, she knows how dangerous they are, but I think she also knows enough not to start messing with them, and probably figures torturing Madame Gao will somehow backfire on them.

Corporate Takeover

• Admittedly I'm not particularly well versed in corporate law, but with Danny owning 51% of the company and Ward and Joy owning significant interest in the company, how did the Board manage to force them out? Danny alone controls the majority of the company.
  • The board is the one that decides who the CEOs are so they can vote them out. However, being major shareholders, they could simply ask for a special assembly to revote who is in the board and since they have the majority, it should be easy to get someone or themselves there and then reinstall themselves as CEO. Shares only matter in stockholder meetings. In day to day operations, they don't give you anything. Even if Danny makes a meeting, he probably won't be allowed back since nothing he does is in the interest of shareholders. So no matter who he puts on the board they won't take him back because he is not a good president to have (doesn't mean he's not a good face for the company).

Danny's time at Birch

• So how did that Bulletin reporter Jennifer Many find out about Danny's stint at Birch Psychiatric Hospital? It seems like the Meachums had kept that under wraps, so there must have been a leaker.
  • The camera focused on Hogarth in that scene, so it's possible she did it in order to smear the Meachums. Danny wasn't interested in doing that and the Meachums thanked him after the conference.

"Don't give the front page to Karen."

• When Jennifer Many is leaving Ward's office after the interview, she's on the phone with Mitchell Ellison, saying “Ellison? Listen, don’t give the front page to Karen. I’ve got a helluva story for tomorrow.“ Yet the next day, it takes Ward a couple of pages to reach the article, which is visibly buried in the back pages. Which means, Jennifer's article didn’t make the front page.
  • Yes Ellison still gave Karen the front page. Just because Jennifer thought her story was better doesn't mean it was. We don't know what Karen's story was.
  • With hindsight, Karen wasn't covering the Danny Rand press conference because she had something much better going on. It actually speaks to wonders just how much fame Danny really has: he might be the name of a billion dollar corporation, but he's by no means a celebrity like Tony Stark. That's why Ellison sent one of his more veteran journos to cover the press conference, instead of his up and coming star reporter.

"More views than the big green guy!"

• In episode six, the crisis management man that Joy hired claims that Danny's apology video has more views on YouTube than a video with the incredible green guy. Really? If Wayne's just exaggerating, that doesn't seem like it would reassure Ward and Joy, or speak well of his expertise. We can't seriously be expected to believe this claim?
  • Depending on the quality of the incredible green guy video it's possible. Also note that the Rands and Meachums had a very good reputation with New York City's public, since the homeless guy remembers hearing about the plane crash and can still talk about it with accuracy.

What does Rand Corporation do?

• Are they just a pharma company or do they do anything else?
  • They are a huge conglomerate that has their fingers in many places. They started as a chemical company (they used to be Rand Oil & Chemicals with a much different logo up until about the time of the plane crash) but they are also involved in pharmaceutical manufacturing and the prosthetic limbs industry (given Danny's using his connections to get Misty Knight her new robotic right arm). They have a large-scale R&D division. People will come to Rand with prototypes for something new. They argue if they want it, and if it gets approved, Rand refines the idea and puts it into production. For example, a plot point in one of the most famous Iron Fist stories involves a experimental train.

Colleen Wing's association with the Hand

• How much did Colleen know about the Hand?
  • Basically nothing at all. She wasn't aware that she was in an evil organization until Bakuto turned her students against her.
  • It's implied that Colleen was one of Bakuto's special projects. She didn't actually live at the compound, so she could have been ignorant to The Hand's activities, and if the police ever questioned her about Hand-related stuff, she can maintain plausible deniability.
  • Colleen was a recruiter for a cult basically. She didn't realize she was in a cult...which is, y'know, how cults work: they train members to think that their insular ways are totally normal and it's the rest of the world that's wrong.

What if Harold had told Joy earlier that he was alive?

• When Harold was first resurrected, only Ward was allowed to know of his continued existence. But what if he had told Joy that he was alive in addition to/instead of Ward?
  • If both Joy and Ward knew the truth, season 1's story would be more or less the same. Season 2 would be different though because Joy likely wouldn't become a bad guy like in season 2 and maybe would stay friends with Danny.
  • If Joy knew and Ward didn't know, the likely result is that Ward doesn't become an addict due to a lack of pressure from keeping his father's survival a secret. Instead, Joy becomes more of a morally-ambiguous character and decides to leave the city at the end of season 1 to escape the insanity. Maybe she becomes an addict like Ward did.

Season 2

Why is Joy blaming the wrong people?

• I understand that Joy had been through a lot of serious emotional and mental trauma. I get it that people don't just walk things like that off without recovery time. But why is Joy blaming the wrong people for her trauma? Ward is a bit of a dick, yes, but he was torn down, verbally, emotionally, even physically. He was burdened with such an immense secret and he wanted so badly to tell her but he couldn't and it ate him up inside. He was capable of caring. And he cared about Joy. He was being incredibly selfless for her sake. He was leading a double life, the darker side of which was a complete atrocity. Letting Joy into it would have eased the burden for him, but he fought like hell to keep her out of it. He understood the danger and wanted to keep her away from it.
  And why go after Danny? He is easily the most pure-hearted hero out there. He was someone trying to help, and like everyone else, was in over his head. He did his absolute best. He took the blame for things that were his fault and he apologized. He never wanted things to go that way. He never pointed fingers, he never challenged Joy, he even gave her the benefit of the doubt, remaining either oblivious or in complete denial, when she was so evidently conspiring against him alongside his very arch nemesis.
  What happened to Joy was unfortunate, yes. But it was Harold's own fault that he couldn't let go of life when it was his time and it was Harold's fault that there was a crime syndicate playing God inside Rand. Not Danny. Not Ward. They were just as much, if not more so, the victims in this crisis. If Joy stopped for five minutes and listened to Danny's and Ward's reasoning, she'd understand why they didn't tell her.
  • They spell everything out later in Season 2. It's very much like the situation with Jessica at the end of Jessica Jones season 2 and why Jessica isn't forgiving of Trish for killing Alisa. Here's how it is with Joy: she understands on an intellectual level, that Ward and Danny didn't cause all this bad stuff to happen, but especially Danny was there it when it all hit the fan, and great deal of those lies unraveling was due to his actions. Ward even tells Joy that so many times (some of which we even saw back in season 1) where he thought about just packing a bag, grabbing her, and disappearing into some far corner of the world where Harold and the Hand could never find them, and Joy's response is "but you didn't." Ward let the lie keep playing out, he never did anything to try and stop it. And while both Danny and Ward acknowledge that their actions and inactions hurt Joy, they don't seem to appreciate how much. Yes, on one level she's just lashing out at the most convenient targets for her feelings of rage, hurt, and betrayal, yet at the same time, Danny and Ward are both very much, from her point of view, dismissive of what they've actually done to hurt her. Both of them just want to be forgiven and get her back in their lives because they love her, and she wants nothing more to do with them because, like it or not, they both did betray her by not telling her the truth about Harold sooner. Yes, they both had very good reasons for keeping that secret, but that doesn't change the fact that it was a betrayal of her trust.

Why didn't Ward and Danny tell Joy the truth?

• Joy knew to an extent that Harold was dangerous, given she got shot by Bakuto. But is there a reason why Ward and Danny never told her that Harold was also responsible for murdering Danny's parents, and attempted to kill Danny more than once? Because I'm kinda surprised that Ward didn't bring that up when telling Joy about the extent of Harold's mistreatment of him.

Misty just forgot about Diamondback?

• Misty's reaction to seeing that guy that Davos punched with the Red Fist in the nightclub was, "What the hell does that?" Does she just have an absolutely terrible memory for people who can kill by punching in the chest really hard? Because she should still very much remember when Diamondback murdered a police officer in that exact same way.
  • Diamondback had a powered fist and was the size of Luke. Davos isn't particularly tall or wear concealed weapons. It's for the same reason Bushmaster caught Harlem off guard: someone doing that out of nowhere is not normal occurrance.
  • The Iron Fist also causes a bit more destruction than Diamondback's suit. Just caving in a guy's chest with the Iron Fist, even if the difference isn't immediately apparent to the viewers, it probably will be to the police.

Why aren't Mary and Joy arrested?

• When Misty and Colleen go to pick up Joy at her new place, Mary attacks them, and after she's subdued, both are taken to Danny and Colleen's place. Can't they have Mary arrested for assault with a deadly weapon (since she attacked Colleen and Misty with a sword) and Joy for criminal conspiracy and fraud?
  • Yes, they could. Or they could persuade Mary and Joy to help them since, y'know, there's a kung fu madman on the loose and only Joy knows the full extent of Davos's plans, while only Mary has the skills to take him down. Yes, they could threaten them with arrest and attempt to apply pressure that way, but Misty decided that it was better to not endanger cops and to avoid getting bogged down by Joy's expensive lawyers, and just talk to them.

Did Lei-Kung make the right call?

• Was Lei-Kung right to call the fight and declare Danny the winner of the combat without Davos having yielded?
  • It seems like a tough call. But it probably was the right one. Davos, while strong enough, wasn't worthy of the Iron Fist, because he wouldn't have used it in the right way. We saw that throughout the show once he got it. But the Thunderer's place was difficult: does he choose his son who he deemed was unworthy, or an outsider who he deemed worthy, while the battle was basically a tie?
  • The rules were pretty straightforward: "Davos, Daniel Rand-K'ai, neither of you may leave this place or this combat until one of you yields or dies." Davos essentially won during the fight, but his hesitation to kill Danny was what made his father believe that he was unworthy of the Iron Fist.
  • It's Wild Mass Guessing, but maybe Lei Kung actually wanted Davos to become the leader of K’un-Lun after him. But he knew Davos had his heart set on becoming the Iron Fist. He humored Davos and allowed the fight even though he never intended for Davos to win. With Danny as the Iron Fist, Lei Kung would have begun to train Davos as his replacement, letting them both become the most powerful figures in K’un-Lun. But Danny and Davos both left and Lei-Kung was killed before that could happen.
  • The fact that Davos fought dirty may have been a factor. Remember, Davos broke the fabric strip tied between him and Danny, and also ripped off his ceremonial mask.
  • At the same time, though, Danny also fought cleverly, using the sunlight to distract and blind his opponent (something he wouldn't have been able to do if Davos hadn't removed his mask), refused to yield even when he was clearly beaten, and hesitated to kill Davos when Davos similarly refused to yield. Davos was far more aggressive, vicious, brutal, and yes, probably technically cheated, and less hesitation about delivering the killing blow to Danny (though Danny took advantage of that blow to start fighting back again). Seems more like a Secret Test of Character all around, to select not just who will be the most effective wielder of the Iron Fist, but who is the most worthy.
    • Emotions are another factor here. You have to remember that Davos, as later flashbacks of his own childhood establish, had been influenced by his mother to seek the title of the Iron Fist. So he's fighting for his mother's approval. Danny doesn't have those parental ties to distract him.

The divestment package

• I don't really understand what the big deal is with Joy's "divestment package." Why doesn't Ward want to do it? Is it a bad deal for him and Danny, or does he just not want Joy to sell her shares? What did Joy and Ward mean by "shit for the shit pile" and "expired patents"?
  • Ward resented it emotionally. He wanted his sister to come back and run Rand with him, he wanted their relationship to go back to the way it was before. He lashed out because his hopes were dashed. On a more practical level, he was worried the divestment package might have some hidden damage, something that will really hurt Rand if they gave to Joy.
  • On Joy's end, they establish what she's doing later in the season: she uses all of the shit patents to try and get one on solar energy that's very lucrative out from under Rand. Granted they may not be worthwhile at the moment but who knows how good they could be in the future.
  • Exactly. It's a combination of Ward still, as he admits much later in the season, wanting to fix everything and make everything alright between him, his sister, and Danny, and Joy wanting out of Rand entirely is an impediment to that. He also mentions that several of those "junk patents" were ones Rand acquired defensively, meaning that they bought out the inventor and sat on the technology because having it out and produced by a rival corporation would damage Rand's business, and for whatever reason, Rand couldn't or wouldn't put it into production themselves. So Ward is right to fear that Joy's got something up her sleeve that could take profits away from Rand Enterprises.

Is K'un L'un destroyed or not?

• Danny seemed to believe K'un L'un was destroyed at the end of the first season but in The Defenders (2017), Alexandra and Madame Gao implied that wasn't the case. Then came the second season of Luke Cage (2016) in which Danny told Luke he would take him to K'un L'un some day and introduce him to Shao-Lou, which shows Danny no longer believes the city is destroyed. Then in this season, Danny seems to be back to believing it's gone. Certainly Davos believes the city has been destroyed and Danny doesn't dispute this.
  • Season one ended with Danny and Colleen seeing the ruin of the place and Alexandra taunted him that it was a wreck now, likely the city was destroyed but the people evacuated.
    • Actually, it was Alexandra who denied K'un L'un was destroyed. It was Elektra who taunted Danny with that, but she didn't really mean it. She was just provoking him because she needed to manipulate him into summoning the Iron Fist to open the gate. Elektra was being resurrected at the time Iron Fist season 1 took place and has no ability to destroy a city, so it was a lie. Also, the Danny episode of Luke Cage season 2 took place after The Defenders, and Danny still believed K'un L'un was still around somewhere. Hell, when Alexandra first meets Danny in The Defenders, she asks "K'un L'un. How is it these days?"
  • In The Defenders, Alexandra, Gao, Bakuto, Sowande and Murukami all wanted the "substance" (i.e. the dragon bones under Manhattan) to continue their immortality so that they could get back to K'un-Lun themselves. (Well, that is what Gao, Bakuto and Murukami wanted. Alexandra wanted more power in this world. Sowande was killed before we found out where he sat.) K'un-Lun is fine. The passage was closed during the Hand's attack, but Lei Kung and the rest of the Order of the Crane Mother are more than capable of repelling an attack by the Hand even without the Iron Fist guarding the passage.

Consider what Stick says at the Royal Dragon:

Stick: A long time ago the elders of K’un-Lun gathered to study how to harness their Chi, the energy of life itself. They wanted to use it to heal. But there were five heretics among them, people with darker intentions. They didn’t want to heal; they wanted immortality — power, to never face death, to regenerate themselves again and again. The elders saw this as an aberration, and so, like Lucifer from heaven, the five were banished from K'un-Lun forever*. They became the five fingers of the Hand. They went back to their mother countries, each finger ruling over its own domain, growing in power and influence."

• This is the explanation that Stick gave the Defenders about the origins of the Hand in the MCU. At the very start of Iron Fist Season 1, we had been reminded that MCU K'un-Lun plays by the same rules as Marvel 616 K'un-Lun: it's an interdimensional city, that only crosses into this dimension every 15 years or so. The passage is only open for a certain period of time. Now, it's well established by both seasons of Iron Fist that K'un-Lun's educational system leaves a bit to be desired, that Danny and Davos stink at critical thinking and gravitate first to a very black/white binary thinking model. Things are either Good or they are Bad, there is no in between. Danny is gradually getting better at accepting shades of grey, but Davos is not.
  So here's what we know or can reasonably deduce:
  1. We know that the passage to/from K'un-Lun is only open every 15 years. Danny was able to be taken into K'un-Lun by monks, and he ran away from K'un-Lun 15 years later. There was no way for him to access the Earthly Himalayas to run back to NYC before then.
  2. We know that the passage to K'un-Lun is only open for brief periods of time - but how brief, is not specified.
  3. We know that the Hand attacked K'un-Lun at the end of I Fs 1
  4. We know that neither Danny and Colleen or Davos have been able to return to K'un-Lun.
  5. We know that the "Fingers"/leaders of the Hand had not returned to K'un-Lun by the time of The Defenders, even though someone had ordered a successful (??) attack on K'un-Lun in I Fs 1.
  6. The attack on K'un-Lun was presumably done by Murukami's Finger, or Gao's, or maybe Bakuto's, as Nobu, Bakuto and Gao were involved in Daredevil season 2 and Iron Fist season 1 in New York efore the assault on K'un-Lun. Murukami was based in Japan, with Nobu his lieutenant in New York, and Gao was based in New York and China - either of them are best positioned to order their forces to attack K'un-Lun when they realised the passage was open because the Iron Fist was in New York.
• Lei Kung and Yu-Ti lead an entire monastery of fighting kung fu monks. I mean, I'm sure K'un-Lun is well and truly capable of defending itself against the Hand -with or without the Iron Fist. Season 2 also reveals two legendary former Iron Fists: Wu Ao-Shi, the Pirate Queen of Bay, and Orsan Randall, a mysterious figure in Japan - did not live in K'un-Lun. They didn't guard the pass, they didn't stand alone on a snowy hillside bored out of their brains.... they went out into the world and, presumably, took on the Hand and anyone else who was doing dodgy things using the power of the dragon's heart in battle. These figures are, of course, from The Immortal Iron Fist comic run (Brubaker/Fraction/Aja). In that run, Danny is recalled to K'un-L'un to represent them in the Immortal Weapons Tournament, where the Immortal Weapons of each of the Seven Heavenly Cities duke it out for honours. Davos is there as Crane Mother's Steel Serpent, much to Lei Kung's displeasure and Danny's consternation.
  Orson Randall shows Danny a way to get to/from K'un-Lun without waiting for the interdimensional passageway to open (and cementing the links between Rand Enterprises and K'un-Lun). Whether the machine that gives passage to K'un-Lun is in the basement of Rand Enterprises or somewhere else, or maybe through some Doctor Strange style sling ring portal action, it's still open to the writers to get us back to K'un-Lun and prove Danny and Davos wrong in their belief that K'un-Lun was "destroyed".

Colleen training Danny?

• In Season 1, Danny seemed to be portrayed as a fighter of far greater skill as should be reasonable with his growing up in K'un-Lun. Colleen may have trained under Bakuto, but she was still just a random teacher/martial artist in New York City. I don't think she went through anyone close to the training Danny had to undergo. So, I can't really wrap my head around how Colleen is anywhere close to be qualified to train Danny. Colleen was living in New York City and engaging in a normal daily life while undergoing training, whereas Danny was living the training 24/7 in what was basically a specialized camp. Skill/random knowledge aside, his time spent training should vastly exceed hers.
  • It seemed more like she was training Danny in getting his "grove" back more than anything. His center had been knocked out of alignment by losing the Iron Fist. The thing that had defined him most of his life. He fought for it, wielded it and as Davos put it used it to fill in a part of himself. When sparing with Danny we see him move with less confidence and hesitation, trying to think of each move and countermove instead of reacting fluidly. Colleen who has trained young people, angry people and very anti-social people was just the person to train Danny how to center himself again.
  • Danny also needed help working through the broken leg Davos had given him. Colleen doesn't do anything with that specifically that we see, but Danny basically needed to learn a new way to fight that wouldn't make his injured leg as much of a disadvantage. Colleen also specifically emotionally trains Danny out of some of his more Idiot Hero aspects.
    • Though this raises a plot hole of why a warrior like the Iron Fist wasn't trained in K'un-L'un on that very topic of "how to fight when your sight/a limb/whatever is disabled". Given that the Chaste, who carry out K'un-L'un's war against the Hand on the outside, have blind warriors like Stick and Stone among their ranks, and Stick was able to train Matt into something pretty proficient too.
    • Because the Iron Fist was trained to be perfect. Focused, fierce and without weakness. That was hammered into Davos which explains his screwed up world view. Their focus was on one thing, without deviation. So not a plot hole more like a fatal flaw. A narrow viewpoint that got them what they thought they needed. Strong, disciplined fighters wielding a powerful mystical weapon until death. They never had to deal with an out of context problem like an Iron Fist being maimed or the power taken away from them. They fought until they died, in service of K'un-L'un then they spent decades training his or her successor to do the same till they died in action then continued the cycle. Also the Chaste and K'un-L'un while both enemies of the Hand, they were separate groups with different approaches. If Matt and Elektra were any indication, the Chaste tracked down unique or skilled young ones and raised them to fight the Hand on the outside. In Danny’s and Davos case K'un-L'un raised their children to compete for a chance to face the dragon. Gain the power of the Iron Fist to protect K'un L'un, which may include fighting the Hand. The Chaste were in active war with the Hand. The Iron Fist fought the Hand when K'un-L'un needed protecting. In short the Chaste strategy was multiple soldiers in active warfare against the Hand. Davos trying to get Danny to come back to K'un-L'un would indicate the Iron Fist only fought the Hand to protect K'un-L'un. That the Iron Fist is first and foremost its defender first and its weapon second.
    • They taught Danny to fight through being poisoned, that's how he beat the Bride of Nine. Iron Fist is an immortal weapon and sworn enemy of the Hand but they don't teach them to fight against bad odds because that's never be useful as sole protector?
    • Here’s the thing. K’un-L’un taught the person who is the Iron Fist to power through poison, pain or “bad odds”. As fitting as the sacred warrior and protector of K’un-L’un. The thing is Danny at the time was no longer an Iron Fist. That was the problem. It’s one thing to teach your Iron Fist to keep fighting no matter what, befitting of the title. Also while they use the term “Immortal” in the title it is metaphorical for behind the weapon is a very mortal man who can be maimed and killed. Not only that what happened to Danny was an out of context problem. It’s one thing to die as an Iron Fist, because no matter how good sooner or later they fall. It’s another thing to have what defined you, what you trained for and fought for stripped away from you. It’s an out of context problem not in the training of K’un-L’un. Danny fought for the Iron Fist and as Davos said it completed him. Without it he is off centre, unsure and hesitant. Stripped of his centre that is why Colleen trained him. To train him to function with a spiritual maiming of having a part of him stripped away. It’s one thing to fight against the odds as K’un-L’un would have taught him. It’s another to find yourself and your confidence when your title and definition was taken from you.
  • Davos didn't throw his training in the trash when he didn't win the Iron Fist, the other student are probably great fighter in their own right and Danny lost the use of his Iron Fist just because his chi was unbalanced before. It makes it sounds like they send a loser fighting a dragon who even after that can't believe they can get their power stolen. That makes Danny a hypocrite for criticizing Luke's skepticism about dragon giving you the chi but nothing else can take it back? He was the most open minded defender yet someone having power stealing ability shake his faith so hard he can't even fall back to his training?
  • That’s because Davos found himself another purpose. He went and took Danny’s purpose: the Iron Fist. Not to mention Davos had always been driven, sure to an almost fanatical degree. Danny defined himself by the fist. To lose is one thing, but to be maimed or crippled is one thing he was taught to deal with. As its protector, and weapon the Iron Fist of K'un-L'un were taught to be vicious, uncompromising and disciplined if the trail and flashbacks were any indication. Its one thing to be trained a great fighter. It’s another thing to be trained to deal with a spiritual and mental wound. Which is what Danny is dealing with. It’s a psychological factor that was not accounted for. Death occurs, replace the Iron Fist. Death of purpose then what? Also Danny was not a hypocrite because this was not about a loss of Chi but a loss of identity. The Iron Fist while having problems powering up in season one was STILL there. It was still a part of him. This is not about imbalance but of actual loss of something within. Also they didn’t send a loser to fight the dragon. They sent one their best warriors who won the trails. But they taught the warrior to fight and win. The theft of an Iron Fist from a previous holder is an out of context problem K’un-L’un would not have considered.
  • But that flies in the face of there then existing a scroll which is specifically implied to have come out of K'un Lun which details a ceremony down to the most minute detail of how to strip a warrior of such power. There's no way that this wasn't something that was considered when schooling the next Iron Fist in the responsibilities and limits of their powers. the only thing the writers can fall back on here is the decision to have Danny abandon the city before the total completion of his training as an Iron Fist, which would likely have included running through ways that enemies might be able to nullify his power in some way. Just because the Iron Fist is meant to embody the best of K'un Lun's warrior elite shouldn't mean that its leaders were stupid or short sighted enough to believe that they could NEVER be beaten or killed. There are 6 other Mystical Cities that all boast warriors of similar caliber that were rivals with them at various points that would have studied specifically to deal with the big gun of the K'un Lun warriors. More or less, we have to accept the situation as it is, because Danny as written here, is basically grim n' gritty Peter Paker. An overpowered novice, who in spite of all the advantages of his background is stuck in a constant state of learner to all of the 'cooler' kids of the Netflix MCU. He's not the Danny of the comics, who although naive to modern life, was an exceptional warrior and tactician, befitting someone who grew up in an intensely martial culture like K'un Lun but also excelled enough to be allowed to partake in their most sacred rite and being the first non native to do so in almost 1000 years. Comics Danny also was wise enough to fully complete his training, so that even if he wasn't a total master of chi, he was still a far more capable warrior than almost any Earth trained martial artist. The Danny of this continuity is basically a yellow belt with a really good party trick by comparison.
  • How is a scroll detailing how to steal the Iron Fist proof that K’un Lun did not train the Iron Fist to deal with the loss of their power? One, there is no actual proof that the scroll originated from K’un Lun. Implication is not definition of fact. Two, it’s a headscratcher about why Colleen is training Danny to get his mojo back not a criticism of his ability. Which unlike in season one is more evident. Three, this season Danny has the skill what he lost that caused issue was what defined him which was the Iron Fist. An eventuality that K’un Lun most likely did not train their warriors for because they could not either conceive of it, or refused to consider the possibility. Alternatively it is possible the K’un Lun did not train the wielder about the possibility of having to continue without the Iron Fist because if they did create the ritual to strip away its power from an unworthy user, they would not want any wielder to be aware of such a ritual in case it is needed. So it is possible that they did not train them to deal with such a scenario in case they need to enact it when necessary. So if the wielder is maimed, later found unworthy, or continue in their duties for some reason. They remove the Fist without them being able to stop it so it could be passed on to someone else. None the less the original point still stands it is a scenario the wielder in this case Danny was not prepared for mentally, or emotionally for the loss of what defined him. So needed help from Colleen to deal with it.
  • Read again, I'm not saying K'un Lun didn't or wouldn't train an Iron Fist to be prepared for potential power nullifiers, I'm against the blind assumption that they would have believed that nothing could stop an Iron Fist once they had the power or that they would simply expect them to bull through everything with sheer muscle and will alone, but that Danny ran away from the city BEFORE he could receive the full training needed to fully master his powers which would surely have included 'there are individuals capable of nullifying even your strength, he's what you have to know to be ready for.' Secondly, The antiquities collector notes the scroll to have had Tibetan origins trained to a mystical realm, which Misty *WINK WINK* calls out as K'un Lun before the curator looks at her like she's a goof. This is all of course off topic in this case. What my point was, is that this version of Danny needs to be looked at as a lot less knowledgeable about being able to keep himself centered and on point or to recover from a loss. The series almost always goes out of its way to show him as if he were an under prepared novice, he's easily thrown off of his game, lacks a complete sense of center and self outside of his superpower and can't seem to fight without it. This flies completely in the face of the way the character is presented in the comics, where yes, he is naive to modern life, but that never conflates with him being outright 'dumb' or unskilled as a fighter as he is often shown to be here. Even without the fist Danny in the comics proves himself to be an exceptional warrior (balancing the mental, physical and spiritual) outside of having the Iron Fist, he even manages to go toe to toe with Davos by himself without it and take it back. Here, to create drama and 'bonding' between him and Colleen, his skill and prowess as a fighter has to be degraded so he can fall into a place where Colleen can teach him things he should already have understood as part of training just to take part in the tournament to become the Iron Fist. K'un Lun would only have accepted the best warriors to do this. If the series wanted to make a better point of it, why couldn't Danny simply be allowed to meditate, as he often does, to come to this understanding on his own, as any other MCU Defender might be allowed? I would argue that because for all the talk of making this the redeeming season, the only change made was to hand the reigns over to Colleen to take on the role of advisor and mentor to what is supposed to be the lead of the series and then, also giving HER what is supposed to be HIS trademark power, because she's become the breakout for the series. The reason Colleen got promoted to the trainer of the best warrior of K'un Lun was due to her popularity and more than likely, backlash against 'White Savior' or some other such nonsense, which has been the bane of the series since its inception.
  • There is never any indication that Danny ran away before being fully trained. Davos never calls him the unfinished Iron Fist. Nor the Iron Fist that ran away without finishing his training. There is no indication in the show that he is half trained, or not fully trained. An assumption that he was never fully trained would make valid that K’un Lun did not prepare him for its loss. But that’s an assumption that was never shown on screen or mentioned by any residents of K’un Lun. By any of the Hand, especially never mentioned by Davos. Basically an assumption to enforce a point pretty much cancels the point. So in effect and in show Danny was a fully trained Iron Fist with nothing to say otherwise besides your assumption that he ran off unfinished. That in itself does not make it a fact. Also the question was why Colleen was chosen. The logical argument was because Colleen from a young age was trained to be a mentor to troubled people. Danny was a troubled person who lost his way when he lost his namesake as well as his self-identity. Colleen is someone with experience, someone who he trusts, and someone who knows how to push him. Danny had a loss, was not trained for that loss and was helped to deal with it by a person experienced with it. Simple, direct and made sense both story and personality wise. Imported drama? "White Saviour" backlash? Nothing to do with the head scratcher itself or the questions it brought up.

Why don't they just shoot him?

• Why aren't the police or the Triads able to take down Davos when they knew where he was? Even when he was walking towards them to slaughter them, they always just stare or pull knives. No stealth, no sneaky ninja shit. Just take some guns out and shoot him. This is a problem that could be easily solved by the triads or even the police. Sending an ESU team with orders to "shoot Davos on sight" would be practical too.
  • The gun thing is obviously a writeoff so people can fight Danny or Davos without ending it in a few seconds. In-universe, well, New York City has strong gun laws, and no gangs want to be blazenly shooting the shit out of people unless they have a desire to get the attention of the police. The Triads seem to fly under the police radar more than the gun toting gangs of Harlem.
  • Danny and Colleen also try and attempt talking people out of confront Davos head-on, because short of hitting him with More Dakka you're only going to step over a mountain of bodies, and they don't want him killed because they want to take the power of the Iron Fist out of him first (initially, to give it back to Danny). And they don't know whether the chi transfer can be done with a dead body.

Danny has Duel Iron Fists?

• So... are we gonna have to wait for Season 3 for it to be explained or will it not? Also, does this mean that Danny is going to prove everyone wrong about being the "worst Iron Fist ever", and that's he's 'actually' going evolve and reach the place he was supposed to be before leaving K'un Lun?
  • How exactly are we supposed to know any of that at this point?
  • Short answer: yes. You talk about the last scene of the last season 2 episode. Even if Danny shows up at some other series before season 3, those explanations will be kept for here, his series.
  • The show has now been cancelled, but hopefully questions will be answered in other shows, or Netflix might change it's mind.

The Iron Fist users and different colours?

• Any indication as to why Danny, Davos and Coleen have different colours for their uses of the Iron Fist? And how Davos can use it with both hands?
  • Good people manifest their chi with good colors and bad people manifest it in evil colors. Davos is an Instant Expert because he's so loony about destroying everything in opposition to his worldview. Danny can use it in both hands in The Tag as well, after he's had more practice.

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