History Main / PvPBalanced

[[AC: MMORPG]]

[[AC: APP MMO]]

[[AC: RealTimeStrategy]]

[[AC: Tabletop RPG]]

* The iOS/Android MMO ''{{Book of Heroes}}'' has had to carefully refine its class balances ever since a PvP option was introduced. A PvE game at its core, class balance quickly became an issue once PvP came along. The three classes available (Justicars (fighters/paladins), Shadow Walkers (Rogues) and War Mages (ice/fire wizards)) had unique abilities that hadn't needed to balance with regards to each other while the game remained a PvE affair. To get around the problems of extensive playtesting, the developers released the PvP arena as a 'beta' version, allowing them to gather real data on the performance of each class vs the others (and against others of the same class). Problems such as the extremely powerful debuffs that Mages could inflict, or the health stacking tactic (meaning some players faced chewing through an opponents' 50,000 health while their own could be half that number), were eliminated once PvP was released as a finished article. Though Nerf Cries still ring out on the game forums and chats, these are virtually always class hate rather than legitimate concerns as of September 2014. The game's primary issue now is the effect PvP has had on PvE raiding. The Justicar class performs poorest in raids overall and is not capable of disposing of enemies with the speed Shadow Walker and Mage players are. This means Justicars have to work harder even to achieve parity. While the problem existed before PvP was introduced, the tweaks to the Justicar skill set aimed at bringing balance to PvP exacerbated the issue.

* The ''{{Starcraft}}'' series continually wrestles with this issue due to the prominence of competitive play. The original game and its expansion pack are widely considered to be as balanced as they are purely by accident and each race is only on even ground with the others by virtue of having its own GameBreaker strategies. With the sequel Blizzard has decided on a method of constant refinement based on the feedback of dedicated and high profile players but certain issues like the Terrans' raw versatility, the supremacy of Protoss micromanagement and the Zerg tendency for runaway economy are persistent thorns in their side.

* Avoided, to an extent, by ''GuildWars''. After much trouble over the fact that changing a skill because of [=PvE=] reasons would unfairly make it useless in [=PvP=], and vice versa, they decided to make some skills function differently in [=PvE=] than they do in [=PvP=]. Unfortunately other [=MMOs=] can't do this because they don't keep [=PvE=] and [=PvP=] separate.

** Another way ''GuildWars'' has [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]]-[=PvP=] Balance was with gear. One of the problems in a few games was "Tiered Gear Sets", so while that person who has had the character since 2006 may have all the cool looking sets and that nice looking weapon, a [=PvP=] character with generic equipment skins could hold their own against that character because they are virtually the same outside of aesthetics; since that [=PvP=] character may have all the same inscriptions and runes, and everything else. Some games may not actually have this kind of gear segregation, meaning a [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] character would get gear that's better for [=PvP=], or [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] is the only way to get gear that can be used for [=PvP=]. (Some games would specifically make [=PvP=]/[[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]]-only gear and not just specs, this was one of the ways Blizzard and Vivendi helped remove the [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]]-characters-performing-better-at-[=PvP=]-than-people-in-[=PvP=]-gear situation of "Vanilla WoW")

* ''EVEOnline'''s developer, CCP, in general takes a conservative approach, releasing new ships in a pre-nerfed state to avoid wild fluctuations in strategies. When they conclude that certain ships are too rarely used, they'll carefully bring them up to par with the rest. Ships which went through this process include Black Ops Battleships, Stealth Bombers, the Falcon's cousin Rook and the Caldari & Minmatar Dreadnaughts.

[[AC: MOBA]]
* ''VideoGame/LeagueOfLegends'' has suffered from constant balance faults as Riot Games has been releasing or reworking new champions, with champions like Twitch, Kassadin, Rek'Sai or Evelynn being severly overpowered at launch and champions like Syndra being severely underpowered. While Riot constantly tries to address balance issues with periodic patches, they have left an emergency escape hatch against broken champions in the form of ranked game bans: before every ranked game starts, the first two players who get to pick a champion must block 3 champions each from the game. Apart from allowing the community to balance the game themselves, ranked bans double as feedback for Riot Games by telling them to address issues with the most banned champions over a patch's lifetime. Twitch, for example, was completely reworked from his incredibly overpowered past when he started getting daily ban probabilities close to 100%.

* ''LeagueOfLegends'' has suffered from constant balance faults as Riot Games has been releasing or reworking new champions, with champions like Twitch, Kassadin, Rek'Sai or Evelynn being severly overpowered at launch and champions like Syndra being severely underpowered. While Riot constantly tries to address balance issues with periodic patches, they have left an emergency escape hatch against broken champions in the form of ranked game bans: before every ranked game starts, the first two players who get to pick a champion must block 3 champions each from the game. Apart from allowing the community to balance the game themselves, ranked bans double as feedback for Riot Games by telling them to address issues with the most banned champions over a patch's lifetime. Twitch, for example, was completely reworked from his incredibly overpowered past when he started getting daily ban probabilities close to 100%.

An effect of CompetitiveBalance, this phenomenon arises in a game with what might be called "multiple axes of conflict" - primarily, a game which contains both PlayerVersusEnvironment and PlayerVersusPlayer content, though other conflicts (such as balancing solo player versus player AND group player versus player) can fall into the similar traps. PVP Balanced describes the state where the needs of two different environments - usually PvP and PvE - conflict, resulting in a major headache for the developer as they attempt to balance the game.

In order to create greater diversity, characters have different strengths and weaknesses - a rogue might be very good at dealing damage but not so good at taking it, a wizard might be excellent at debuffing enemies but have difficulty dealing damage, a healer may be excellent at healing and buffing their allies but terrible at dealing damage, and a warrior might be good at drawing aggression from enemies and taking punishment, but mediocre at anything else. So what happens when these characters, often designed for group PvE experiences, get thrust into solo PvP combat? How does the healer fight back against the rogue? Can anyone kill the warrior, or is he just too tough to bring down before his damage overwhelms the opposition? Is the wizard utterly useless, or can he perpetually stunlock his enemy and prevent them from ever acting at all?

All of these are possible issues which arise when powers intended to be used against massed groups of enemies and AI controlled bosses instead are brought into PvP combat - what is fair against an AI may not be fair against a player character. Oftentimes [=PCs=] have utterly different stat arrays than [=NPCs=] - [=NPCs=] often have vastly more hit points than player characters do, and deal very different amounts of damage. A [=NPC=] doesn't get bored if it gets stunned repeatedly or otherwise severely impaired by debuffs, nor does it mind if it gets shredded in a few seconds by a high-damage character. An [=NPC=] often attacks in a scripted manner, meaning that a tank can draw "aggro" that forces [=NPCs=] to attack it, but which doesn't necessarily work on human-controlled characters. And [=NPCs=] don't necessarily go for the healer first, whereas [[ShootTheMedicFirst humans are very likely to do so every single time]]. Ranged [=PCs=] may be able to run away from melee characters all day, preventing them from ever engaging, or alternatively start out so close to the melee characters that they gain no benefits from their ranged attacks, or might even endanger themselves with their own abilities when fighting an enemy up close.

As such, what works for PvE often does not translate well into PvP - stunlocks are severely unfun, healers may go down in mere moments due to the sky-high damage of characters relative to [=PC=] hit point total or have such good healing as to be unkillable, or the tank might have counterattacks that instantly kill or otherwise severely cripple anyone who attacks them. It's even worse when the PvP environment is different from the PvE environment in scale - solo PvE characters have very different needs from group PvE characters (needing to be much more well rounded), which may translate poorly into group PvP combat where everyone having a role makes for a stronger team, while the opposite - the standard PvE group of 4-5 people of three to five roles doesn't tend to translate well into one on one dueling.

The unfortunate end result of this is that if a power is weak in one environment, but strong in the other environment, correcting its balance may be impossible - making it stronger for the weak environment may result in it becoming broken in the environment it is strong in, while weakening an overpowered power in one environment may render it worthless in the other. Any buff or nerf affects both PvP and PvE, resulting in players from the environment where the power is negatively affected complaining about how it is too weak or too strong now. If powers are separated by environment, a different issue may result where a character might funnel all of their power into PvE or PvP, rendering them very bad at the other environment but potentially overpowered in their own - neither of which are desirable outcomes. And if powers don't behave identically in PvE and PvP, it often leads to a steeper learning curve while transitioning from one to the other, causing player frustration at the inconsistency of the effects of their powers. Woe betide the world where PvP is global, thus further adding to the confusion of which powers to use where, or what they do in what situation.

This problem is most prevalent in [=MMOs=], where PvE and PvP both tend to be major concerns, but can arise in any other form of multiplayer game where both environments exist - games from ''VideoGame/MassEffect3'' to TabletopGames are affected by such issues. Note that these issues are not restricted to class-based games, either - in any game where player characters are not identical, and both PvE and PvP exist, this can be a potential issue. This isn't even necessarily have to be restricted to games with combat content - any game wherein there is both competition against the computer and competition against other players, where those two types of competition are not nearly identical, can be affected.

* The 4th edition of ''Dungeons and Dragons'' shifted its priorities to [=PvP=] and [=PvE=] balanced surprisingly given how seldom players actually fight each other directly in D&D. Both Fighters and Wizards are (mostly) [[LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards linear]] now, due to having more similar mechanics. The edition also greatly reduced out of combat options and abilities, with spellcasters no longer capable of solving any non combat problems at all with magic, and skills being more meaningful as a result of the same (which again makes it surprising that they got rid of so many skills without replacing their functions). However, the PvP balance was entirely accidental; 4th edition is designed with PvE in mind, and monsters and player characters both work significantly more the same as a result of different character classes having only marginally different abilities mostly separated by flavor text.
** While 4th edition allowed non-spellcasters to be competitive, certain roles are now weaker in [=PVP=] environments thanks to their [=PVE=] balance. Specifically, the [[TheMedic Leader]] and Controller classes. To make Leaders viable, some arenas houserule that healing powers that are specifically worded to effect allies will effect the caster. Controllers, who are designed around [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin crowd control]], still fall behind other roles in [=PVP=] settings and are rarely used.

** ''CityOfHeroes'' has tried the same thing in its [[UnpleasableFanbase endless struggle for [=PVP=] balance]].
** ''GuildWars'' actually did not originally do this - when the game was new, you simply had default abilities if you started a [=PvP=]-only character, and unlocking abilities was ''much'' easier when running through the [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] campaign. Thankfully, they remedied this relatively quickly (As in, before they added four more professions) with the addition of Balthazar faction and putting in some pre-made character builds in, so it was much easier to do it. And even then, while there was still a [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] and [=PvP=] segregation in regards to builds and abilities, they didn't specifically nerf or buff abilities for quite awhile, which unfortunately lead many people to scream how often they nerfed their favourite build(s) when it was a nerf made for [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]]/[=PvP=] and they did the opposite. Now while it is still highly possible to play [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] and unlock some stuff like inscriptions, abilities, runes, and the like for [=PvP=] characters (and heroes), it's just ''as'' possible to do the same through [=PvP=]. However, they don't (as of this update) have the [=PvP=]-premade characters anymore; so arguably it can still be easy to unlock abilities for [=PvP=] through [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]], you just have to ''know'' what they are. (Guild Wars has ''loads'' of abilities)

* The old-old start of ''{{Drowtales}}'' when it was based on DungeonsAndDragons sessions. Deliberately [[GameBreaker averted]] in favour of story over balance in the current main comic and something new readers should keep in mind/be aware of.

* ''WorldOfWarcraft'' unsurprisingly has problems with this as well, for the simple reason that there are at least four different setups that need to be considered when balancing classes: Solo/small group [=PvE=], raid [=PvE=], Arenas (small group PlayerVersusPlayer), and Battlegrounds (big scale PlayerVersusPlayer). For starters, [=PvE=] and [=PvP=] have vastly different priorities and rules (hard crowd control skills are less effective in [=PvP=], for instance, while light crowd control is weak in raids), and some abilities work better in small groups than in big ones. So if something is overpowered in a duel but mediocre in a battleground, it's hard to change it so that it becomes more balanced in the former without it becoming useless in the latter. Moreover, the player base itself is [[BrokenBase strongly divided]] between the four groups identified above, with each group clamoring for its own vision of balance, often at the expense of the others.

* ''WorldOfWarcraft'' unsurprisingly has problems with this as well, for the simple reason that there are at least four different setups that need to be considered when balancing classes: Solo/small group [=PvE=], raid [=PvE=], Arenas (small group PlayerVersusPlayer), and Battlegrounds (big scale PlayerVersusPlayer). For starters, [=PvE=] and [=PvP=] have vastly different priorities and rules (crowd control skills are less effective in [=PvP=], for instance), and some abilities work better in small groups than in big ones. So if something is overpowered in a duel but mediocre in a battleground, it's hard to change it so that it becomes more balanced in the former without it becoming useless in the latter. Moreover, the player base itself is [[BrokenBase strongly divided]] between the four groups identified above, with each group clamoring for its own vision of balance, often at the expense of the others.

* ''PerfectWorld International'' has an interesting way of working with and around the inherent problems of [=PvP=] vs. [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]]. First, they have two kinds of servers: 4 servers that are [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] intensive and 2 that are [=PvP=]. In each, the way one goes about committing [=PvP=] acts is different. On the [=PvP=] servers, once a character reaches level 30 they are open for the slaughter, but can in turn attack anyone they wish. This adds an element of chaos and paranoia that some people grow to love and others tend to shy away from. On the [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] servers, one has to activate [=PvP=] mode, and it shows on their name, so everyone recognizes when someone is in "killing mode." This makes people who enjoy the madness caused by [=PvP=] to think of [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] players as "Carebears." Additionally, there is a large difference in damage inflicted on mobs and player characters. In fact, the amount of damage done to player characters is only 1/4 of the damage done to monsters. This keeps Nukers from raining fiery doom down and one shotting everyone with area of effect spells. It also keeps every other character type from one-shotting every other character type. However, a wide spread problem occurred with the Petmaster class. A certain pet that must be bought with real money (or ridiculous amounts of in game coins)can learn a certain damage over time attack. The problem is that the attack does [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] damage in [=PvP=]. And the monster that uses is so strong that one can get "bled" for 4-9 thousand damage a second. (The toughest class in the game usually doesn't have more than 12 thousand hit points. And that's near level 90.)

In order to create greater diversity characters have different strengths and weaknesses - a rogue might be very good at dealing damage but not so good at taking it, a wizard might be excellent at debuffing enemies but have difficulty dealing damage, a healer may be excellent at healing and buffing their allies but terrible at dealing damage, and a warrior might be good at drawing aggression from enemies and taking punishment, but mediocre at anything else. So what happens when these characters, often designed for group PvE experiences, get thrust into solo PvP combat? How does the healer fight back against the rogue? Can anyone kill the warrior, or is he just too tough to bring down before his damage overwhelms the opposition? Is the wizard utterly useless, or can he perpetually stunlock his enemy and prevent them from ever acting at all?

All of these are possible issues which arise when powers intended to be used against massed groups of enemies and AI controlled bosses instead are brought into PvP combat - what is fair against an AI may not be fair against a player character. Oftentimes [=PCs=] have utterly different stat arrays than [=NPCs=] - [=NPCs=] often have vastly more hit points than player characters do, and deal very different amounts of damage. A [=NPC=] doesn't get bored if it gets stunned repeatedly or otherwise severely impaired by debuffs, nor does it mind if it gets shredded in a few seconds by a high-damage character. An [=NPC=] often attacks in a scripted manner, meaning that a tank can draw "aggro" that forces [=NPCs=] to attack it, but which doesn't necessarily work on human-controlled characters. And [=NPCs=] don't necessarily go for the healer first, whereas humans are very likely to do so every single time. Ranged [=PCs=] may be able to run away from melee characters all day, preventing them from ever engaging, or alternatively start out so close to the melee characters that they gain no benefits from their ranged attacks, or might even endanger themselves with their own abilities when fighting an enemy up close.

As such, what works for PvE often does not translate well into PvP - stunlocks are severely unfun, healers may go down in mere moments due to the sky-high damage of characters relative to [=PC=] hit point total or have such good healing as to be unkillable, or the tank might have counterattacks that instantly kill or otherwise severely cripple anyone who attacks them. Its even worse in the PvP environment is different from the PvE environment in scale - solo PvE characters have very different needs from group PvE characters (needing to be much more well rounded), which may translate poorly into group PvP combat where everyone having a role makes for a stronger team, while the opposite - the standard PvE group of 4-5 people of three to five roles doesn't tend to translate well into one on one dueling.

* The 4th edition of ''Dungeons and Dragons'' is (surprisingly, given how hard they failed in previous editions) [=PvP=] and [=PvE=] balanced. Both Fighters and Wizards are (mostly) [[LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards linear]] now, due to having more similar mechanics. The edition also greatly reduced the disparity in out of combat effectiveness, with spellcasters no longer capable of solving any possible problem with magic, and skills being more meaningful as a result of the same. However, the PvP balance was entirely accidental; 4th edition is designed with PvE in mind, and monsters and player characters both work significantly better as a result of no longer using the exact same rules for being built.

** This led to the funny and unusual effect of "dedicated combatant" subtypes (Dawn/Dusk/Slayer for Solar-tier) being widely criticized as getting the bad deal, because there's very little they do more efficient then other subtypes and usually much in the "other something" area they do worse. The little help could come from the fact that mass combat is a different game then melee in Exalted, and that mass combat is normally their "other something" and from the fact that a Dawn/Dusk/Slayer has the side benefit of versatility in combat. It doesn't matter if that Twilight is a better Archer if you disarm them and beat them to death with their bow. .

This problem is most prevalent in [=MMOs=], where PvE and PvP both tend to be major concerns, but can arise in any other form of multiplayer game where both environments exist - games from MassEffect3 to TabletopGames are affected by such issues. Note that these issues are not restricted to class-based games, either - in any game where player characters are not identical, and both PvE and PvP exist, this can be a potential issue. This isn't even necessarily have to be restricted to games with combat content - any game wherein there is both competition against the computer and competition against other players, where those two types of competition are not nearly identical, can be affected.

* Inverted in ''ShinMegamiTenseiIMAGINE'' as it wasn't created with PvP in mind, and it was only implemented later due to the player-base asking for it. [[FanDumb Most of these people now complain how unbalanced it is]]. Later on, a patch that tried to remove some features from being used in PvP to make it more balanced ended up [[EpicFail breaking half the game, and having half the devs fired]]. Granted, in a game where players hit OverNineThousand damage while having around 400 HP, PvP was doomed to fail. Sure, everyone has increased HP in PvP, but it doesn't help much to have 3000 HP when it's possible to hit ''30 thousand damage in one hit''. It's basically a matter of who hits who first.

* The 4th edition of ''Dungeons and Dragons'' is (surprisingly, given how hard they failed in previous editions) [=PvP=] and [=PvE=] balanced. Both Fighters and Wizards are (mostly) [[LinearWarriorsQuadraticWizards linear]] now, due to having more similar mechanics. The edition also greatly reduced the disparity in out of combat effectiveness, with spellcasters no longer capable of solving any possible problem with magic, and skills being more meaningful as a result of the same. However, the PvP balance was entirely accidental; 4th edition is designed with PvE in mind, and monsters and player characters both work significantly better as a result of no longer using the exact same rules for being built.
** While 4th edition allowed non-spellcasters to be competitive, certain roles are now weaker in [=PVP=] environments thanks to their [=PVE=] balance. Specifically, the [[TheMedic Leader]] and Controller classes. To make Leaders viable, some arenas houserule that healing powers that are specifically worded to effect allies will effect the caster. Controllers, who are designed around [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin crowd control]], still fall behind other roles in [=PVP=] settings and are rarely used.

* ''PerfectWorld International'' has an interesting way of working with and around the inherent problems of [=PvP=] vs. [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]]. First, they have two kinds of servers: 4 servers that are [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] intensive and 2 that are [=PvP=]. In each, the way one goes about committing [=PvP=] acts is different. On the [=PvP=] servers, once a character reaches level 30 they are open for the slaughter, but can in turn attack anyone they wish. This adds an element of chaos and paranoia that some people grow to love and others tend to shy away from. On the [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] servers, one has to activate [=PvP=] mode, and it shows on their name, so everyone recognizes when someone is in "killing mode." This makes people who enjoy the madness caused by [=PvP=] to think of [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] players as "Carebears." Additionally, there is a large difference in damage inflicted on mobs and player characters. In fact, the amount of damage done to player characters is only 1/4 of the damage done to monsters. This keeps Nukers from raining fiery doom down and one shotting everyone with area of effect spells. It also keeps every other character type from one-shotting every other character type. However, a wide spread problem occurred with the Petmaster class. A certain pet that must be bought with real money (or ridiculous amounts of in game coins)can learn a certain damage over time attack. The problem is that the attack does [[PlayerVersusEnvironment PvE]] damage in [=PvP=]. And the monster that uses is so strong that one can get "bled" for 4-9 thousand damage a second. (The toughest class in the game usually doesn't have more than 12 thousand hit points. And that's near level 90.)

* The ''TabletopGame/OldWorldOfDarkness'' had problems with this, as several supernaturals had long-standing grudges that went back millennia. In one case, this was [[FurAgainstFang vampires versus werewolves]]... where one werewolf could likely wipe the floor with a handful of average vampires. And then there were the [[HolyBurnsEvil Tremere vampires]] versus the [[KillItWithFire Forces-happy Order of Hermes mages]]. When the TabletopGame/NewWorldOfDarkness rolled around, supernaturals were retooled so that a) they stayed in their own relatively different worlds, and b) if their paths ''did'' cross, each type would either have a one-on-one fighting chance or the ability to escape relatively unharmed.
** However, straight combat almost never happens in the World of Darkness. Vampires will kill you in your sleep, Werewolves kill everyone in the general area- not just the players, and Mages tend to be too busy fighting against the general forces of the Abyss to bother kicking anyone else's ass. If you do kill a vampire, you're playing into another vampire's plans, and he'll have you shot by someone else as soon as he doesn't need you anymore.
** Played straight in the New World of Darkness, however, especially when ''TabletopGame/HunterTheVigil'' comes out to play and the hunters are Conspiracy members with Endowments. Virtually every trick every supernatural entity has can be countered by a certain piece of equipment or Tactic, which is appropriate considering how near-helpless a normal human is, and Hunter is all about turning the tables on the supernaturals - if you do kill a vampire, you've spat in the darkness' face and lived to tell the tale... unless the Storyteller wishes otherwise.
* ''TabletopGame/{{Exalted}}'' plays this remarkably straight. Most of every single namesake superhero is basically expected to be a competent combatant Plus competent something. In a world where AggressiveNegotiations are almost the default method of discussing matters (with actual diplomacy ensuing in the event of some kind of stand-off in the initial effort at fast and pragmatic solution) this is naturally to be expected.
** This led to the funny and unusual effect of "dedicated combatant" subtypes (Dawn/Dusk/Slayer for Solar-tier) being widely criticized as getting the bad deal, because there's very little they do more efficient then other subtypes and usually much in the "other something" area they do worse. The little help could come from the fact that mass combat is a different game then melee in Exalted, and that mass combat is normally their "other something" and from the fact that a Dawn/Dusk/Slayer has the side benefit of versatility in combat. It doesn't matter if that Twilight is a better Archer if you disarm them and beat them to death with their bow. .
* The ''{{Starcraft}}'' series continually wrestles with this issue due to the prominence of competitive play. The original game and its expansion pack are widely considered to be as balanced as they are purely by accident and each race is only on even ground with the others by virtue of having its own GameBreaker strategies. With the sequel Blizzard has decided on a method of constant refinement based on the feedback of dedicated and high profile players but certain issues like the Terrans' raw versatility, the supremacy of Protoss micromanagement and the Zerg tendency for runaway economy are persistent thorns in their side.

** This led to the funny and unusual effect of "dedicated combatant" subtypes (Dawn/Dusk/Slayer for Solar-tier) being widely criticized as getting the bad deal, because there's very little they do more efficient then other subtypes and usually much in the "other something" area they do worse. The little help could come from the fact that mass combat is a different game then melee in Exalted, and that mass combat is normally their "other something" and from the fact that a Dawn/Dusk/Slayer has the side benefit of versatility in combat. It doesn't matter if that Twilight is a better Archer if you disarm them and beat them to death with their bow.
* The old-old start of ''{{Drowtales}}'' when it was based on DungeonsAndDragons sessions. Deliberately [[GameBreaker averted]] in favour of story over balance in the current main comic and something new readers should keep in mind/be aware of.

This problem is most prevalent in MMOs, where PvE and PvP both tend to be major concerns, but can arise in any other form of multiplayer game where both environments exist - games from MassEffect3 to TabletopGames are affected by such issues. Note that these issues are not restricted to class-based games, either - in any game where player characters are not identical, and both PvE and PvP exist, this can be a potential issue. This isn't even necessarily have to be restricted to games with combat content - any game wherein there is both competition against the computer and competition against other players, where those two types of competition are not nearly identical, can be affected.

All of these are possible issues which arise when powers intended to be used against massed groups of enemies and AI controlled bosses instead are brought into PvP combat - what is fair against an AI may not be fair against a player character. Oftentimes PCs have utterly different stat arrays than NPCs - NPCs often have vastly more hit points than player characters do, and deal very different amounts of damage. A NPC doesn't get bored if it gets stunned repeatedly or otherwise severely impaired by debuffs, nor does it mind if it gets shredded in a few seconds by a high-damage character. An NPC often attacks in a scripted manner, meaning that a tank can draw "aggro" that forces NPCs to attack it, but which doesn't necessarily work on human-controlled characters. And NPCs don't necessarily go for the healer first, whereas humans are very likely to do so every single time. Ranged PCs may be able to run away from melee characters all day, preventing them from ever engaging, or alternatively start out so close to the melee characters that they gain no benefits from their ranged attacks, or might even endanger themselves with their own abilities when fighting an enemy up close.

As such, what works for PvE often does not translate well into PvP - stunlocks are severely unfun, healers may go down in mere moments due to the sky-high damage of characters relative to PC hit point total or have such good healing as to be unkillable, or the tank might have counterattacks that instantly kill or otherwise severely cripple anyone who attacks them. Its even worse in the PvP environment is different from the PvE environment in scale - solo PvE characters have very different needs from group PvE characters (needing to be much more well rounded), which may translate poorly into group PvP combat where everyone having a role makes for a stronger team, while the opposite - the standard PvE group of 4-5 people of three to five roles doesn't tend to translate well into one on one dueling.

* The old-old start of ''{{Drowtales}}'' when it was based on DungeonsAndDragons sessions. Deliberately [[GameBreaker averted hard]] in favour of story over balance in the current main comic and something new readers should keep in mind/be aware of.

** ''CityOfHeroes'' has tried the same thing in its [[UnpleasableFanbase endless struggle for [=PVP=] balance]], though the fanbase doesn't seem to want to give feedback.

** That said, [=PvP=] is a very small part of ''FinalFantasyXI'', which many players do not ever take part in, with almost all of the game's focus on PlayerVersusEnvironment gameplay.