Follow TV Tropes

Following

History Main / LowLevelAdvantage

Go To

OR

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''CaveStory:'' Many players insist that the level 2 Blade is better than the level 3 Blade: it does much more damage per second, provided you SpamAttack from very close. And the Nemesis is a LethalJokeItem that gets worse as you level it up: At level 1 it's one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and at level 3 it's status as a weapon is a pure formality. And it levels up from a single experience pick up.

to:

* ''CaveStory:'' Many players insist that the level 2 Blade is better than the level 3 Blade: it does much more damage per second, provided you SpamAttack from very close. And the Nemesis is a LethalJokeItem that gets worse as you level it up: At level 1 it's one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and at level 3 it's its status as a weapon is a pure formality. And it levels up from a single experience pick up.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* Resource management is a key feature in the mini {{Roguelike}} [[http://www.qcfdesign.com/?cat=20 Desktop Dungeons]], and levelling up will restore your HitPoints, ManaPoints and status. Hence, a widely-used tactic is to start fighting a boss while a few XP short of a level-up, burn through your resources, and then go squish a low-level monster for a mid-fight heal.

to:

* Resource management is a key feature in the mini {{Roguelike}} [[http://www.qcfdesign.com/?cat=20 Desktop Dungeons]], DesktopDungeons, and levelling up will restore your HitPoints, ManaPoints and status. Hence, a widely-used tactic is to start fighting a boss while a few XP short of a level-up, burn through your resources, and then go squish a low-level monster for a mid-fight heal.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* Resource management is a key feature in the mini {{Roguelike}} [[http://www.qcfdesign.com/?cat=20 Desktop Dungeons]], and levelling up will restore your HitPoints, ManaPoints and status. Hence, a widely-used tactic is to start fighting a boss while a few XP short of a level-up, burn through your resources, and then go squish a low-level monster for a mid-fight heal.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


Other times, especially in multiplayer games, this trope is used to avoid scaring off new players with particularly harsh [[ContinuingIsPainful penalties for death]] and similar things, or to give them a chance to get used to the setting before such things are imposed. It's not uncommon for MMORPGs and similar games to waive most of the penalty for death for lower-leveled characters. Low-level characters are also frequently exempt from PVP, which can be a mixed advantage.

to:

Other times, especially in multiplayer games, this trope is used to avoid scaring off new players with particularly harsh [[ContinuingIsPainful penalties for death]] and similar things, or to give them a chance to get used to the setting before such things are imposed. It's not uncommon for MMORPGs {{MMORPG}}s and similar games to waive most of the penalty for death for lower-leveled characters. Low-level characters are also frequently exempt from PVP, which can be a mixed advantage.



[[AC:MMORPGs]]

to:

[[AC:MMORPGs]][[AC:{{MMORPG}}s]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Also, it's not actually that ''lower'' levels increase droprates -- it's the ''amount you've artificially lowered your level by''. A 'naturally' level 1 character has the worst droprate, not the best droprate; a level 100 character with a 99-level handicap has the best one.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* In ''PlanescapeTorment'', the combat stats of the BigBad scale with The Nameless One's level. Of course, with so many ways of TalkingTheMonsterToDeath, fighting remains a sub-par option in any circumstance.

to:

* In ''PlanescapeTorment'', the combat stats of the BigBad scale with The Nameless One's level. level (and this is [[JustifiedTrope justified by the plot]].) Of course, with so many ways of TalkingTheMonsterToDeath, fighting remains a sub-par option in any circumstance.

Added: 478

Changed: 1

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


This trope represents {{RPG}}s where there are particular advantages to refraining from LevelGrinding. In {{MMORPG}}s, this feature is known as AntiPoopSocking. This can exist when there are benefits that are LostForever if you try immediate grinding, but also when there are tactical advantages caused by a level gain. Or when the game uses EmptyLevels.

to:

This trope represents {{RPG}}s where there are particular advantages to refraining from LevelGrinding. In {{MMORPG}}s, this feature is known as AntiPoopSocking. This can exist when there are benefits that are LostForever if you try immediate grinding, but also when there are tactical advantages caused by a level gain. Or when the game uses EmptyLevels.
EmptyLevels.

Other times, especially in multiplayer games, this trope is used to avoid scaring off new players with particularly harsh [[ContinuingIsPainful penalties for death]] and similar things, or to give them a chance to get used to the setting before such things are imposed. It's not uncommon for MMORPGs and similar games to waive most of the penalty for death for lower-leveled characters. Low-level characters are also frequently exempt from PVP, which can be a mixed advantage.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

*** If you ''do'' level up, it's best to wait until you have <Stat> Bonus abilities, which award an extra point (in the case of HP, an extra 10) to that respective stat upon leveling.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''DragonQuestVI'' and ''DragonQuestVII'' rely on the player winning battles against decently challenging enemies to gain job levels and consequently skills from advancing. Each area has a maximum level at which job points are awarded; if a character exceeds this maximum level, they will not be awarded job points and not advance. Therefore, grinding can lead to some big trouble in class developing.

to:

* ''DragonQuestVI'' and ''DragonQuestVII'' rely on the player winning battles against decently challenging enemies to gain job levels and consequently skills from advancing. Each area has a maximum level at which job points are awarded; if a character exceeds this maximum level, they will not be awarded job points and not advance. Therefore, grinding early on can lead to some big trouble in class developing.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
lower level? Also, more detailed explanation on how the system works. It\'s also in DQ 6.


* ''DragonQuestVII'' relies on the player winning battles against lower level enemies to gain class skills. If they player's level is higher than the enemy, then the hero gets no class points. Therefore, grinding can lead to some big trouble in class developing.

to:

* ''DragonQuestVI'' and ''DragonQuestVII'' relies rely on the player winning battles against lower level decently challenging enemies to gain class skills. If they player's job levels and consequently skills from advancing. Each area has a maximum level is higher than the enemy, then the hero gets no class points. at which job points are awarded; if a character exceeds this maximum level, they will not be awarded job points and not advance. Therefore, grinding can lead to some big trouble in class developing.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** In ''FinalFantasyIII'', all of your stats except max HP change upon changing classes. You gain HP based on your Vitality stat when you level up, so it's best to wait until you open the Karateka or Ninja classes which have the highest Vitality to do a lot of your LevelGrinding if you want to have more HP at the end. Similarly, you might want to unlock and change to the initial job classes as soon as possible to avoid weak HP gains from being Onion Knights.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* ''{{Xenogears}}'' has the character Emeralda, who has a certain side-quest in Disc 2 that [[spoiler: turns her into an adult form]]. After that quest, she has insane stat growth with every level up. If you keep her level low at the beginning and do some grinding after the quest, then she can be even more powerful than her own HumongousMecha.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''TheWorldEndsWithYou'' allows the player to manually lower their level (which translates to shrinking their HP pool in combat). Lower levels grant higher drop rates.

to:

* ''TheWorldEndsWithYou'' Subverts this trope: it allows the player to manually lower their level (which translates to shrinking their HP pool in combat). Lower levels grant higher drop rates. But actually gaining levels is still very advantageous: you can lower them further to further increase droprates and they are still useful in actually tough fights.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''CaveStory:'' Many players insist that the level 2 Blade is better than the level 3 Blade: it does much more damage per second, provided you SpamAttack from very close. And the Nemesis is a LethalJokeItem that gets worse as you level it up: At level 1 it's one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and at level 3 it's the absolute weakest weapon in the game.

to:

* ''CaveStory:'' Many players insist that the level 2 Blade is better than the level 3 Blade: it does much more damage per second, provided you SpamAttack from very close. And the Nemesis is a LethalJokeItem that gets worse as you level it up: At level 1 it's one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and at level 3 it's the absolute weakest status as a weapon in the game.
is a pure formality. And it levels up from a single experience pick up.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** In a reversed case, leveling your Pokémon too much will cause it to be disobedient if you're not the Pokémon's original trainer and don't have the right badge.

to:

** In **In a reversed related case, leveling up traded pokemon beyond levels supported by your Pokémon too much badges will cause it to be disobedient if you're not the Pokémon's original trainer and don't have the right make them disobey you. It is a very slight disadvantage generally: they will still crush anything you can meet before acquiring required badge.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


** Safer Sephiroth [[strike:has]] [[FinalFantasyXIII had]] the highest HP of any final boss of Final Fantasy. But there's still nothing stopping a player from spamming KOR.

to:

** Safer Sephiroth [[strike:has]] [[FinalFantasyXII had the]] [[FinalFantasyXIII had]] the highest HP HP]] of any final boss of Final Fantasy. But there's still nothing stopping a player from spamming KOR.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''NetHack'' characters can reach level 30, but the merits of doing so are debated, and depend on the character. Higher level characters are much more likely to encounter [[MookMaker Archons and Arch Liches]], and may not be significantly more powerful.

to:

* ''NetHack'' ''{{Nethack}}'' characters can reach level 30, but the merits of doing so are debated, and depend on the character. Higher level characters are much more likely to encounter [[MookMaker [[EnemySummoner Archons and Arch Liches]], and may not be significantly more powerful.
powerful.
** Donating a certain number of gold pieces to a priest will permanently improve the character's protection against physical attacks, with the amount of gold required increasing with every CharacterLevel. Gathering lots of gold while maintaining a low CharacterLevel and then donating all the gold to a priest is known as the Protection Racket.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''TheElderScrolls IV: {{Oblivion}}''. Enemies all over the game world only level up when the player levels up, but because you activate leveling up by sleeping after gaining a certain amount of experience, it is possible to avoid leveling up. The trick is that while doing so, you can still individually increase skills in such a way that you're over-powered compared to the enemies you fight. Although the game restricts a few things to certain levels, the main quest can indeed be completed at level 2. Combining the increasing monster difficulty with the fact that careful metagaming and [[MinMax min maxing]] is ''required'' to avoid a chronic EmptyLevels effect, the game is a lot easier for an insomniac amateur than a well rested expert.

to:

* ''TheElderScrolls IV: {{Oblivion}}''. Enemies all over the game world [[LevelScaling only level up when the player levels up, up]], but because you activate leveling up by sleeping after gaining a certain amount of experience, it is possible to avoid leveling up. The trick is that while doing so, you can still individually increase skills in such a way that you're over-powered compared to the enemies you fight. Although the game restricts a few things to certain levels, the main quest can indeed be completed at level 2. Combining the increasing monster difficulty with the fact that careful metagaming and [[MinMax min maxing]] is ''required'' to avoid a chronic EmptyLevels effect, the game is a lot easier for an insomniac amateur than a well rested expert.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

**The most obvious example of this being the trophy asking you to beat the boss of the game with all three of your party members at level one. And before you ask, no, he doesn't scale with your levels. He's just as hard as usual. Needless to say, just being able to challenge him like this requires quite a commitment from the beginning of the game.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


*** The fact that your allies during the main quest are some of select few humanoid NPCs that don't level up with the player hardly helps--if the player delays too long, allies are rendered useless and escort missions near impossible. On the other hand, if the player delays too little, he may find his allies overpowered, rendering things too easy and having said allies basically win by themselves. The same goes for summoned creatures--overpowered if acquired early, little more then [[WeHaveReserves cannon fodder]] when used later.

to:

*** The fact that your allies during the main quest are some of select few humanoid NPCs [=NPCs=] that don't level up with the player hardly helps--if the player delays too long, allies are rendered useless and escort missions near impossible. On the other hand, if the player delays too little, he may find his allies overpowered, rendering things too easy and having said allies basically win by themselves. The same goes for summoned creatures--overpowered if acquired early, little more then [[WeHaveReserves cannon fodder]] when used later.

Added: 1967

Changed: 12

Removed: 1891

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


[[AC:ActionAdventure]]
* ''CaveStory:'' Many players insist that the level 2 Blade is better than the level 3 Blade: it does much more damage per second, provided you SpamAttack from very close. And the Nemesis is a LethalJokeItem that gets worse as you level it up: At level 1 it's one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and at level 3 it's the absolute weakest weapon in the game.

[[AC:MMORPGs]]
* ''CityOfHeroes'' goes even further, leveling up doesn't just restore all your health and endurance but also grants you a large short-duration buff to every stat you have all at once. Also if you were dead during a fight that you team wins, if you soaked up enough XP from the victory to level-up you will be revived as well. It's rather amusing to get back up in the middle of a major battle and be stronger than before. The end result is that it is often best to be close to, but not at, a new level on mission start, so you can actually take advantage of the buffs.
** Because you get a sizable XP bonus for finishing a mission, this can frustratingly leave you with the nice power surge, and nothing to beat up before it wears off.
* ''WorldOfWarcraft'' features a heavily reduced difficulty curve for players below level 20, primarily affecting mana and health regeneration but also how certain stat modifiers scale. The curve is pronounced enough that a properly equipped level 1 character could theoretically outdamage a level 10. However, since base stats are fixed at each level, there's no advantage to exploiting this in the long term unless you plan to be a Battlegrounds twink.

[[AC:{{Roguelike}}]]
* ''{{ADOM}}'' has numerous quests that are LostForever above a certain level.
* ''NetHack'' characters can reach level 30, but the merits of doing so are debated, and depend on the character. Higher level characters are much more likely to encounter [[MookMaker Archons and Arch Liches]], and may not be significantly more powerful.

[[AC:RolePlayingGame]]



** Final Fantasy Dissidia also does this. If you are leveling up to get that one move that you can spam like crazy, guess what? Your opponent also levels with you, and probably gained some move that trumps yours.

to:

** Final ''Final Fantasy Dissidia Dissidia'' also does this. If you are leveling up to get that one move that you can spam like crazy, guess what? Your opponent also levels with you, and probably gained some move that trumps yours.



* The masters in ''BreathOfFire 3'' teach skills, but each master teaches each skill only once (skills can then be transferred among party members). The reason to avoid leveling without masters is that they adjust your stat gains on leveling.

to:

* The masters in ''BreathOfFire 3'' ''BreathOfFireII'' teach skills, but each master teaches each skill only once (skills can then be transferred among party members). The reason to avoid leveling without masters is that they adjust your stat gains on leveling.



** ''CityOfHeroes'' goes even further, leveling up doesn't just restore all your health and endurance but also grants you a large short-duration buff to every stat you have all at once. Also if you were dead during a fight that you team wins, if you soaked up enough XP from the victory to level-up you will be revived as well. It's rather amusing to get back up in the middle of a major battle and be stronger than before. The end result is that it is often best to be close to, but not at, a new level on mission start, so you can actually take advantage of the buffs.
*** Because you get a sizable XP bonus for finishing a mission, this can frustratingly leave you with the nice power surge, and nothing to beat up before it wears off.



* ''TheElderScrolls IV: Oblivion''. Enemies all over the game world only level up when the player levels up, but because you activate leveling up by sleeping after gaining a certain amount of experience, it is possible to avoid leveling up. The trick is that while doing so, you can still individually increase skills in such a way that you're over-powered compared to the enemies you fight. Although the game restricts a few things to certain levels, the main quest can indeed be completed at level 2. Combining the increasing monster difficulty with the fact that careful metagaming and [[MinMax min maxing]] is ''required'' to avoid a chronic EmptyLevels effect, the game is a lot easier for an insomniac amateur than a well rested expert.

to:

* ''TheElderScrolls IV: Oblivion''.{{Oblivion}}''. Enemies all over the game world only level up when the player levels up, but because you activate leveling up by sleeping after gaining a certain amount of experience, it is possible to avoid leveling up. The trick is that while doing so, you can still individually increase skills in such a way that you're over-powered compared to the enemies you fight. Although the game restricts a few things to certain levels, the main quest can indeed be completed at level 2. Combining the increasing monster difficulty with the fact that careful metagaming and [[MinMax min maxing]] is ''required'' to avoid a chronic EmptyLevels effect, the game is a lot easier for an insomniac amateur than a well rested expert.



* ''WorldOfWarcraft'' features a heavily reduced difficulty curve for players below level 20, primarily affecting mana and health regeneration but also how certain stat modifiers scale. The curve is pronounced enough that a properly equipped level 1 character could theoretically outdamage a level 10. However, since base stats are fixed at each level, there's no advantage to exploiting this in the long term unless you plan to be a Battlegrounds twink.
* ''{{ADOM}}'' has numerous quests that are LostForever above a certain level.
* ''NetHack'' characters can reach level 30, but the merits of doing so are debated, and depend on the character. Higher level characters are much more likely to encounter [[MookMaker Archons and Arch Liches]], and may not be significantly more powerful.
* ''CaveStory:'' Many players insist that the level 2 Blade is better than the level 3 Blade: it does much more damage per second, provided you SpamAttack from very close. And the Nemesis is a LethalJokeItem that gets worse as you level it up: At level 1 it's one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and at level 3 it's the absolute weakest weapon in the game.



----

to:

----
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* ''AdventureQuest'' and ''DragonFable'', due to almost all the enemies being level-scaled, often rather harshly.

Changed: 241

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* ''TheElderScrolls IV: Oblivion''. Enemies all over the game world only level up when the player levels up, but because you activate leveling up by sleeping after gaining a certain amount of experience, it is possible to avoid leveling up. The trick is that while doing so, you can still individually increase skills in such a way that you're over-powered compared to the enemies you fight. Although the game restricts a few things to certain levels, the main quest can indeed be completed at level 2.

to:

* ''TheElderScrolls IV: Oblivion''. Enemies all over the game world only level up when the player levels up, but because you activate leveling up by sleeping after gaining a certain amount of experience, it is possible to avoid leveling up. The trick is that while doing so, you can still individually increase skills in such a way that you're over-powered compared to the enemies you fight. Although the game restricts a few things to certain levels, the main quest can indeed be completed at level 2. Combining the increasing monster difficulty with the fact that careful metagaming and [[MinMax min maxing]] is ''required'' to avoid a chronic EmptyLevels effect, the game is a lot easier for an insomniac amateur than a well rested expert.



** Theres also the issue of damage being capped (via both available magicka and a limit on stats), while health is not. Basically, once the player reaches a certain threshold, their damage stops increasing, but the health of enemies around them isn't, leading to long, drown out and incredibly dull fights with not only bosses, but with a simple leveling mook. However, monster damage is not in fact capped, meaning that as the player reaches the point where they were supposed to be able to challenge the nine divine themselves (say level 40 or so), its more or less impossible to get through fights without resorting to use of a GameBreaker (which there are plenty of, and thereby render things too easy, but still long and drawn out).

to:

** Theres There's also the issue of damage being capped (via both available magicka and a limit on stats), while health is not. Basically, once the player reaches a certain threshold, their damage stops increasing, but the health of enemies around them isn't, leading to long, drown out and incredibly dull fights with not only bosses, but with a simple leveling mook. However, monster damage is not in fact capped, meaning that as the player reaches the point where they were supposed to be able to challenge the nine divine themselves (say level 40 or so), its more or less impossible to get through fights without resorting to use of a GameBreaker (which there are plenty of, and thereby render things too easy, but still long and drawn out).
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

*** The above only applies to the remakes from 'Dawn of Souls' and up. The original NES and Origins versions averted this: the stats each class gained on level-up were determined by a table, each level having certain 'guaranteed to go' stats. Every time you levelled, you automatically gained a point in each of those stats, as well as having a 25% chance for each of your other stats to go up. The only character who actually suffered from this trope was the Black Belt, who gained 4 magic defense (a hidden stat) per level, while after class change, the Grand Master only gained 1 magic defense per level, presumably as a result of a bug. Having a ribbon (all elemental resistances) equipped made it moot though.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

***The fact that your allies during the main quest are some of select few humanoid NPCs that don't level up with the player hardly helps--if the player delays too long, allies are rendered useless and escort missions near impossible. On the other hand, if the player delays too little, he may find his allies overpowered, rendering things too easy and having said allies basically win by themselves. The same goes for summoned creatures--overpowered if acquired early, little more then [[WeHaveReserves cannon fodder]] when used later.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

**Theres also the issue of damage being capped (via both available magicka and a limit on stats), while health is not. Basically, once the player reaches a certain threshold, their damage stops increasing, but the health of enemies around them isn't, leading to long, drown out and incredibly dull fights with not only bosses, but with a simple leveling mook. However, monster damage is not in fact capped, meaning that as the player reaches the point where they were supposed to be able to challenge the nine divine themselves (say level 40 or so), its more or less impossible to get through fights without resorting to use of a GameBreaker (which there are plenty of, and thereby render things too easy, but still long and drawn out).

Added: 366

Changed: 8

Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* {{ADOM}} has numerous quests that are LostForever above a certain level.
* NetHack characters can reach level 30, but the merits of doing so are debated, and depend on the character. Higher level characters are much more likely to encounter [[MookMaker Archons and Arch Liches]], and may not be significantly more powerful.

to:

* {{ADOM}} ''{{ADOM}}'' has numerous quests that are LostForever above a certain level.
* NetHack ''NetHack'' characters can reach level 30, but the merits of doing so are debated, and depend on the character. Higher level characters are much more likely to encounter [[MookMaker Archons and Arch Liches]], and may not be significantly more powerful.
* ''CaveStory:'' Many players insist that the level 2 Blade is better than the level 3 Blade: it does much more damage per second, provided you SpamAttack from very close. And the Nemesis is a LethalJokeItem that gets worse as you level it up: At level 1 it's one of the most powerful weapons in the game, and at level 3 it's the absolute weakest weapon in the game.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Deleting Thread Mode


*** That's actually a really bad idea. Her class gives her a bunch of unique feats for free that boost her strength with blasters. You'll want to wait until around level 18 to Jedify her so she gets the maximum bonus. Same with Atton and the Sneak Attack feats. If you want Jedi powers, use Kreia or Visas, since they start out with them.
**** Not that bad an idea. Jedi powers vastly, vastly improve any character. And part of being a powerful gunner is force speed, force stun.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

[[quoteright:300:[[TheElderScrolls http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/jalyssbethesda-emptylevels_9220.gif]]]]
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
fixed common usage error


** In ''FinalFantasyI'', your stats growth was effected by your current class, so you got the best stats by leveling up as little as possible before the class upgrades.

to:

** In ''FinalFantasyI'', your stats growth was effected affected by your current class, so you got the best stats by leveling up as little as possible before the class upgrades.

Top