History Main / CasualCompetitiveConflict

** In ''VideoGame/{{Tekken}} 4'', everyone came to hate and fear four letters: [=JFLS=]. (Just Frame Laser Scraper, an attack possessed by Jin Kazama that was near-instantaneous, safe, spammable, and came with variations which forced you to guess.) At the height of ''T4''[='s=] popularity, there was an organized movement to either ban Jin or go back to ''Tekken Tag Tournament'' as the marquee ''Tekken'' game. More than a decade later, ''T4'' has been partially VindicatedByHistory because dedicated players have found new techniques that beat JFLS and open a new and rewarding metagame. To this day, it has a few dedicated players that not only consider it a great game, but one of the best in the series that was judged too harshly, too quickly.

** ''VideoGame/MarioKart 8'' has frog/fire hopping, a tactic where the player constantly hops their kart after a boost, so the effect lasts longer, which is exploiting a glitch. Like with snaking, the fan base is heavily divided over whether the tactic is either fair or cheap and boring. All the time trial records are held by players who abused the technique.

** ''Videogame/DragonBallFighterZ'' has become infamous for the question "How many Gokus and Vegetas can we put in one game"? To wit, the game launched with both characters in Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue forms and later added Base forms for both, as well as two different fusions: Vegito and Gogeta, the latter of which also has a Super Saiyan 4 variant. It also included Goku Black[[note]]Who is technically a different character, but more on that in a moment.[[/note]], and later Bardock (who is [[IdenticalGrandson Goku's identically-looking father]]), Kid Goku from ''Anime/DragonBallGT'' for good measure and Ultra Instinct Goku, bringing the total up to 7 Gokus, 3 Vegetas and three fusions of both. But it doesn't end there, because several other characters have alternates as well, such as Gohan (Teen and Adult forms), Broly (''Z'' and ''Super'' forms) and Buu (Majin and Kid forms). And ''furthermore'', there are several characters who are not only playable, but appear as either an AssistCharacter or [[FusionDance Fusion half]] for another character (Gohan appears as both his Teen and Adult selves, ''and'' as "Great Saiyaman" for Videl; Android 17 is also an assist for Android 18; Trunks's younger counterpart is half of Gotenks; and Zamasu is both an assist for Goku Black and fuses into Fused Zamasu with him). Fans of the characters in question may enjoy their inclusion, but competitive players have repeatedly expressed dissatisfaction with new versions of the same characters being released ad nauseam.

** In ''VideoGame/StarTrekOnline'', a lot of the iconic live-action canon ships that the hardcore trekkie segment of the player base really wants to fly are considered decidedly in the lower tiers. For example, because of the way the {{metagame}} shook out, every variant of the ''Galaxy''-class relies way too much on tanking in a game where offense is considered the best defense in PVE. (The Galaxy Dreadnought Cruiser has the added problem that its WaveMotionGun almost never hits anything and has way too long of a cooldown.) For another, the Jem'Hadar attack ship, rather than the ''Defiant''-class, is generally considered the best escort available to Starfleet. This leads to massive bitching from people who wish their favorite TV-canon ship was better.

** In ''Videogame/LeagueOfLegends'', there are several characters who have been the bane of lower-level players for the duration of their existence, and of those, Garen and Lee Sin have been some of the most infamous, as well as illustrations of how the devs deal with pubstompers vs. high-level darlings. Garen has almost never been viable in high-level play for a lot of reasons: he has no hard CC or peeling ability, which makes him useless as a tank, falls off ''hard'' damage-wise past twenty minutes, has zero range or gap-closing ability, and really isn't that durable under any sort of sustained fire. In low-level play, however, he is a consistently strong choice due to his enormous early damage and lane-bullying abilities and passive HealingFactor, and the developers have said on numerous occasions that the buffs needed to make Garen viable in high-level play would poison the game for low-level players; on the one occasion where Garen actually ''was'' viable past Season 1, he was hated by players at all levels for being [[FakeBalance overtuned]] due to his generally awkward and outdated kit needing a massive numbers bloat just to be good. Lee Sin, on the other hand, is beloved by high-level players for his versatile design, ability to pull off many different roles, and smooth progression from early and mid-game bully to late-game jack-of-all-trades, while lower-level players see him as a scourge who does everything, does it well, and has no real weaknesses. In Lee Sin's case, the developers have stated on multiple occasions that he is simply too important in high-level play to touch unless he is legitimately problematic in that environment, and that any nerfs due to low-level complaints would trigger substantial backlash from high-level players, so the low-levels simply had to learn to deal.

** Another case where the hardcore side favors big rosters is ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}''. The game has long encouraged forming bonds with your monsters, and provided tools to bring old favorites forward into newer games... and then it was announced that ''VideoGame/PokemonSwordAndShield'' would only support a selection of Pokémon and not every signle one from prior games. While it's understandable that accomodating hundreds of creatures indefinitely was becoming unfeasable, many fans were furious that they wouldn't be able to use their favorites.

*** The debate would rage again in ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBros4'' and ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'' with the additions of [[Franchise/StreetFighter Ryu, Ken]], [[VideoGame/FatalFury Terry]], and [[Franchise/{{Tekken}} Kazuya]], each of whom come with command inputs to pull off stronger versions of their moves or powerful unique special moves. This has led to a lot of debate as to whether they should be in ''Smash'', with some players believing that they require too much skill and the stronger versions of the moves make the weaker ones redundant, while others believe that the inputs allow for more depth, and choosing between a weaker but easier to pull off move vs. a stronger but more difficult to input move is a fair choice.

1TierInducedScrappy

** In ''[[VideoGame/SoulSeries Soulcalibur IV]]'', Hilde possessed a relatively easy combo in the initial release that could ring out any opponent, even if she hit them dead center of the stage. Hilde quickly became a LowTierLetdown because of how predictable and boring this was, but the tactic was so easy and so effective that within a year, every tournament was at least 70% Hilde. A later patch fixed this, but by then, it was too late.

** In the ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosMelee'' community, the "No items, [[TierInducedScrappy Fox only]], [[AbridgedArenaArray Final Destination]]" {{meme|ticMutation}} reflects players' annoyance at the fact that, in a game full of wildly diverse characters and stages, only a few are typically chosen. In this case, items and most stages are disqualified due to Luck being too much of a factor (see that folder).

** In ''[[VideoGame/SoulSeries Soulcalibur IV]]'', Hilde possessed a relatively easy combo in the initial release that could ring out any opponent, even if she hit them dead center of the stage. Hilde quickly became a TierInducedScrappy because of how predictable and boring this was, but the tactic was so easy and so effective that within a year, every tournament was at least 70% Hilde. A later patch fixed this, but by then, it was too late.

** ''Franchise/FireEmblem'' is an interesting example of this kind of debate becoming legendary... for a game's ''single-player'' campaign. ''Fire Emblem'' is a series that is both a NintendoHard strategy game with efficient completion of battles requiring a lot of planning and intricate knowledge of game mechanics, and one that encourages the player to treat their soldiers as people rather than expendable pawns, by giving each one a portrait, name, personality and RelationshipValues with other soldiers. This has resulted in two different communities forming around how to judge units: one by their gameplay potential and the other by their character, and the two very rarely match up. Many characters who fall on the low end of the CharacterTiers have likeable personalities that earn them large fanbases, when leads to a lot of conflict when their fans get involved in tier list debates. Not helping matters is that the hardcore community's hatred of [[TierInducedScrappy Tier-Induced Scrappies]] can get quite vicious at times, a common joke is to intentionally let them die in battle or kill them instead of recruiting them, which can come across as DudeNotFunny for some. (Units defeated in battle in FE actually die in most cases) Meanwhile, many casual fans of these characters don't fully understand the gameplay and will make misleading arguments for their usefulness, which is a BerserkButton for hardcore players.

*** Also, from Website/{{Smogon}} ([[WordOfDante big surprise, huh?]]), there are various controversies over specific moves:

Debates on this topic can get ugly, fast, especially in cases where the creator of the game [[CreatorBacklash takes sides]]. On [[Wiki/TVTropes This Very Wiki]], many pages (especially in the YMMV tab) have to be policed closely because those joining the debate on either side tend to degenerate in the 1% who'd love to start a fight.

* '''Neutral View:''' Skill is not objective; thinking it is discounts on-the-spot decision-making and individual growth levels. CharacterTiers are useful for understanding the tools each player has at their disposal at any given time, and some characters just are innately better off. Also, it's still possible for a "low-tier" pick to have a favorable matchup against a "high-tier" one, even if their matchups against some others border on unwinnable. Put time and energy into becoming the best player you can be with them while also accepting that you're likely going to lose a lot due to lack of competitive tools. One the flip side, just because a player wins with fewer tools doesn't mean they're a "better" player, either.

* '''Hardcore View:''' Competitive play inherently relies upon drawing as many people to the game as possible, and it takes lots and lots of hands to make sure tournaments are well-organized, well-regulated, and well-marketed. As such, trying to fragment the community to [[StartMyOwn promote your own game, genre or play style]] above others hurts everybody, because in the end, nobody gets what they want.
* '''Casual View:''' The above is easy to say when you're a tourney player and thus get to control what rules are standardized, what games are streamed, and what tactics everyone uses. For people who don't agree with you, it's a constant struggle to even be acknowledged. Especially when the hardcore crowd mocks other games as being [[NoTrueScotsman not "competitive."]] It's all well and good to say that everyone should hop on the same bandwagon, apparently so long as it's ''your'' bandwagon.
* '''Neutral View:''' Why is any of that stuff important anyway? Professional sports exist alongside college sports and amateur sports, so who cares if everyone plays the same way you do, or if your game isn't getting mainstream attention? Trying to force everyone to do things your way, or else, only makes outsiders look at both sides with revulsion and turns them off from participating in ''either'' side.

* '''Neutral View:''' While it's generally a very bad thing, it really can't be avoided due to natural gravitation towards stronger options... and besides, you can't very well ''tell'' someone who (not) to pick. If the game really is turning into a case of "pick these people or lose", it has balance issues that need to be addressed.

* '''Notable Cases:'''

* '''Neutral View:''' While a lack of gameplay balance and unique gameplay mechanics can make gameplay shallow and quickly [[ComplacentGamingSyndrome stale]], focusing too much on it does lead to other areas suffering. The [[ChristmasRushed development deadline]] means development time is [[EquivalentExchange zero-sum]] -- any attention given to one area takes away from another. The ideal of balancing between good mechanics and good presentation is good but isn't always possible.

* '''Neutral View:''' Ideally, developers should try to cater to both casual and competitive players to keep everyone happy. (Of course, the purpose of this entire article is about how hard it is to do that...)

A. The contrast in general.

B. In a team play.

* '''Hardcore View:''' Trash-talking, pop-offs, being coached by other players, watching the other player's screen, listening for button inputs, stalling between rounds to break the opponent's flow, wearing skimpy, gaudy, or offensive clothes/items (or even ''no'' clothes at times) to distract the opponent and other things like that, are all considered valid tactics. You're not directly interfering with the player's ability to play, and smart players know how to counter this (such as using a different screen, using quieter buttons, creating "dummy" buttons in the Controls menu, and wearing headphones to drown out background noise). As always, there's ways around everything, so if you want to win, learn to deal with it.
* '''Casual View:''' But what does any of that have to do with ''skill?!'' Sure, some of that stuff is ambiguous, but if stalling the game and deliberately ruining someone's momentum is valid, then what about intentionally inducing lag or otherwise dropping the framerate to screw up inputs? What about players who take up too much space in the play area so that you have no room to comfortably use your controller or joystick? And why is being coached by other players during a match okay? If you didn't prepare enough for the match beforehand, shouldn't that be on ''you?''
* '''Neutral View:''' Just compromise. If you think watching another player's screen is vastly unfair, but don't feel that strongly about coaching, then why not ban the former and allow the latter? Or, at the very least, allow some things but create limitations where possible so that fun, exciting matches stay the norm, and the emphasis is squarely on in-game skill and decision-making. Furthermore, whether you like it or not, trash talk can never be truly eliminated, so get used to it--good trash talk can add a lot of flavor to casuals or a tournament, and if you've got some good lines, why not bust them out yourself? That said, no one likes trash talk that is overly vulgar, aggressive, mean-spirited, or outright bigoted, and if people tell you that your lines are annoying or cross a line, you need to check yourself for your own good before you piss off the wrong people. Same goes for pop-offs - good pop-offs can be funny and liven up an event and help build a persona, but persistent poor sportsmanship or bad attitudes will make people hate you (unless you [[{{Heel}} want to cultivate that]], but it's not recommended). Personal hygiene, meanwhile, should be a non-issue - unless you have a medical condition that causes you to smell awful despite your best efforts, there is ''no'' excuse for walking into an event smelling like a landfill.
* '''Notable Cases:'''

* '''Positive View''': Most, if not all characters that cause problems for low-level players have glaring weaknesses that make them fall apart against people who know how to reliably exploit them. Quit bitching about how they're OP when they aren't and use them as a reason to get good enough to reliably beat them, rather than just demanding that the developers gut them, so your feelings aren't hurt.
* '''Negative View''': Just because a character ''can'' be countered doesn't mean they shouldn't be looked at. Why would anyone bother learning to use a more skillful option if they can just coast by on Easy Mode? Is it worth it to let most of your player base be frustrated just so you can smugly tell us to "git gud"? And even if we ''do'' "git gud", it's unfair that simply by making ONE mistake, other lazy players can easily win. Most of us don't have the time to sink hundreds of hours into practicing our skills and just want to enjoy the damn game - this is a pastime for us, ''not'' a way of life, and it's impossible to enjoy it when every other match has the same few easy mode characters.
* '''Neutral View''': It is frustrating for higher-level players to see the game balanced due to requests or complaints from lower-level players who can't handle them, but it is just as frustrating for people who just want to have fun with the game to consistently get destroyed by a character who, to them, is out of control. Developers have a delicate balancing act on their hands with these things - listen to low-level players too much, and the competitive scene will stagnate and die as the high-levels realize that the developers don't really care about them, followed by the rest of the game once the lower-levels get bored. Listen to high-levels too much, however, and you will alienate the lower-levels who make up the bulk of your player base, many of whom will depart, and word will spread that you blindly kowtow to a tiny selection of the player base and force everyone else to make do, and the new blood that your game needs simply will not arrive. Depending on the situation at hand, sometimes the lower-levels have to just make do, sometimes the higher-levels have to accept that these characters need to be taken down a bit for the good of the game, and sometimes you have to figure out a happy median.

** ''VideoGame/DeadOrAlive'' has gone through this pretty much from the moment it was created, thanks to the series' emphasis on [[BoobsOfSteel well-endowed]] female fighters kicking butt in a variety of showy costumes. On the one hand, the game's reputation as a "[[JigglePhysics jiggle fighter]]" has scared off some potential players who assume it's nothing more than virtual mud-wrestling[[note]]An impression not helped by the ''DOA Xtreme'' sub-series, which does away with the fighting in favor of LesYay-laden DatingSim antics[[/note]], but on the other hand some fans focus on its counter-heavy gameplay (which some consider a SpiritualSuccessor to the ''VideoGame/VirtuaFighter'' series) and either don't care about the {{Fanservice}} or appreciate the developers' honesty about indulging in it. When Tecmo Koei announced they were going to tone down the fanservice in ''DOA 5'', pressure from the player base caused them to relent (they made the same announcement for ''DOA 6'', but as of this edit it's too soon to say if history will repeat). Similarly, a push among the competitive ''DOA'' scene to ban skimpier costumes led to fights between the two sides: hardcore players said it was about preventing DistractedByTheSexy and casuals accused the hardcores of trying to whitewash the game's image just to fish for the wider FGC's respect.

*** This is an issue that has hit ''VideoGame/{{Splatoon}}'', by far Nintendo's most competitively-tuned game. The problem some have is that its multiplayer is online-only and is very vulnerable to lag or outright disconnections. While a competitive scene has developed almost everywhere it's sold, Japan remains the only country where ''Splatoon'' is taken seriously enough to have competitive ''events'' due to its lightning-fast Internet. Everywhere else, if it isn't Korea or Scandinavia, gets to deal with teleporting players, impossible kills, and the occasional total paralysis due to a hiccup in one's Internet connection.

** ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}'' is a good example of the balanced view, as the Website/{{Smogon}} fan community organizes characters into strict tiers for metagame informational purposes, but players are encouraged to use the ones they like. It helps that the tiers are determined by how often certain Pokémon are used, so their strength is an influence but not the be-all-end-all. The overall idea behind the tiers is not "You must use [X, Y, or Z] if you want to win", but "If you want to use [A, B, or C], then play on a tier where [X, Y, or Z] won't immediately crush them."

[[folder:MST3K Mantra]]

[[folder:Complacent Gaming Syndrome]]
!!!'''ComplacentGamingSyndrome'''
* '''Hardcore view:''' A natural consequence of an Arms Race metagame is that players will naturally gravitate towards the stronger options. If players want to choose weaker things for the sake of variety, it's their loss.
* '''Casual view:''' A result of manipulation via the use of arbitrary CharacterTiers, whether players admit it or not and whether or not they actually know how to use the "stronger options". Can also stagnate casual communities due to players repeatedly just glancing at the tier list and choosing #1, thinking they'll be unbeatable because of it.
* '''Neutral View:''' While it's generally a very bad thing, it really can't be avoided due to natural gravitation towards stronger options... and besides, you can't very well ''tell'' someone who (not) to pick. If the game really is turning into a case of "pick these people or lose", it has balance issues that need to be addressed.

** In ''Franchise/StreetFighter'', Ryu and Ken have consistently been the most selected characters throughout the entire series, Ken especially due to being easier to use and combo with.
** In the ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosMelee'' community, the "No items, [[TierInducedScrappy Fox only]], [[AbridgedArenaArray Final Destination]]" {{meme|ticMutation}} reflects players' annoyance at the fact that, in a game full of wildly diverse characters and stages, only a few are typically chosen. In this case, items and most stages are disqualified due to Luck being too much of a factor (see that folder).
*** The ''[[VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosForNintendo3DSAndWiiU 3DS/Wii U]]'' game attempts to appeal to both groups by having two online modes; "For Fun" is for casual players and allows everything, and "For Glory" is for the hardcore crowd as it enforces "No items, Final Destination" rules. [[BrokenBase Reactions to this feature remain mixed, particularly among the tournament crowd it was intended to appeal to.]] This is mostly because Final Destination isn't actually as balanced as the above meme would have you believe, a stereotype the ''Melee'' community has failed to shake off for over half a decade.[[labelnote:In particular]]Projectile users have a large advantage since there's nowhere to go to dodge, and Little Mac having the best ground play has made the online community shift almost entirely to using just him - more so than Fox was in ''Melee''.[[/labelnote]] In addition, the "For Fun" mode only allows for 2-minute timed matches with no stock (as opposed to For Glory where you can play two-stock battles with a longer, more appropriate time limit), to the annoyance of players who like items but prefer to play with stock. In short, the rules for both modes are too rigid. ''Ultimate'' later abandoned the system, simply allowing players to choose their own rule preferences and taking them into account during online matchmaking.
*** The following game, ''VideoGame/SuperSmashBrosUltimate'', further tries to address the AbridgedArenaArray: all stages now have a "Battlefield" version (one main platform and a few secondary ones above it) in addition to "Final Destination" (just one flat platform), which many players feel is more balanced. Players also now have the option to turn off stage hazards on the normal stages, allowing a wider variety of environments without random luck being a factor.
** In the ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}'' competitive scene, Website/{{Smogon}} rules [[ExploitedTrope take advantage]] of the natural trends to choose more powerful characters, setting up its tier system based on frequency of use. [[Administrivia/TropesAreTools The intention is to allow everyone to choose their personal favorites]] without danger of being [[CurbStompBattle swept]] by a select few who stand out.
*** A Pokémon’s viability is also largely based on the current metagame. A given Pokémon might become [=OverUsed=] because it counters a very popular choice or strategy or might plummet into [=RarelyUsed=]or [=NeverUsed=] because a very common Pokémon counters it, despite being otherwise a great pick. Because of this, the metagame is constantly shifting in response to what is or is not popular.
*** The "suspect test" and banning process exists precisely to curb this: if data analysis makes it clear that a specific Pokémon or strategy is omnipresent in a particular tier, and people are having to devote multiple move or team slots to deal with it (''especially'' if they have little use outside of countering that one specific Pokémon or strategy, or if you have to also devote a move or team slot to dealing with the counters to your counter), it's getting suspect tested for overcentralization. The general attitude is that while it is your responsibility to plan and account for common threats in each tier, a threat that forces you to hobble your team just so you don't get stomped or walled into oblivion is an unhealthy presence in the tier.
** In ''VideoGame/TeamFortress2'', competitive players sometimes only accept one loadout per character as "the right way" to play a character, and any player using a weapon other than their favored three (or four) will get chewed out over chat or mic.
** In ''VideoGame/MassEffect3 Multiplayer'', despite there being a wide variety of characters, weapons, powers, and equipment to use, only specific combinations are considered "viable." Before a match starts, everyone on your team can see what character and loadout (except powers) you've chosen, and if you don't fit their ideal, will either leave or kick you from the game. ''[=ME3MP=]'' uses a {{Freemium}} model (equipment is given randomly through "packs", and each pack takes either hours of gameplay or real money), so players become extremely touchy about wasting their time and in-game money on bad players. However, this attitude especially sucks when you're a new player; how are you supposed to know this new weapon or character you spent days to earn is one of the "bad" ones? And how are you supposed to know why everyone keeps quitting your game and kicking you? This attitude was even worse before later patches, as searching for a Gold match would infallibly lead a player into a Firebase White/Geth match. [[note]]Firebase White had a phenomenal camping spot that the Geth only had limited options for attacking, allowing players to easily funnel them and pick them off even at the highest difficulty. Both the map and the Geth were later redesigned to prevent this.[[/note]]
** In ''VideoGame/{{Overwatch}}'', picking certain characters in competitive matches, mostly from the Defense class, can lead to a lot of flak, including rude comments in chat, accusations of attempting to throw the game, arguments that disturb team coordination, or the offended player throwing the game themselves, due to these characters being viewed as underpowered, having little synergy with others or used often by unskilled players. Most often affected heroes are Hanzo, Torbjörn, Widowmaker, Sombra and Symmetra, but sometimes Genji, Mei and even D.Va players get this treatment. Blizzard has recently introduced a revamped report system to combat this phenomenon.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Demographics]]
!!!'''[[PanderingToTheBase Demographics]]'''
* '''Hardcore view:''' We're the ones who play the game the most and we're the ones who're likely to spend more over a game's lifetime on content, so the game should be catered to us.
* '''Casual view:''' The casual crowd is bigger than the core fanbase and we shouldn't be ignored.
* '''Neutral View:''' Ideally, developers should try to cater to both casual and competitive players to keep everyone happy. (Of course, the purpose of this entire article is about how hard it is to do that...)
* '''Notable cases:'''

!!!'''[[LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters Big Rosters]]'''

** To go to the other side of the trope we have the video game ''VideoGame/{{Demigod}}''. Released in 2009, it was the first commercially-produced {{MOBA}}; it was created by Chris Taylor (''VideoGame/TotalAnnihilation'', ''VideoGame/DungeonSiege'', ''VideoGame/SupremeCommander'') and had a fair bit of hype behind it. However, to supply its 5-on-5 team brawls, it provided... eight characters. Part of the charm of a MOBA is the LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters, decreasing the likelihood of {{Mirror Match}}es. ''Demigod'' not only had Mirror Matches, it ''forced'' them. Though it is still available on Steam over a decade after its release, what it ''wanted'' to be was ''VideoGame/LeagueOfLegends''... And it failed at its goal miserably.

** ''VideoGame/VirtuaFighter'', like any game, has character tiers, but proponents of the series often point out that unlike other titles, every character is tournament viable. There are two things worthy to note, though. First, the ''VF'' series is not known for having LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters, so balancing them is easier than in a game like, say, ''VideoGame/MarvelVsCapcom2''. The second is that although ''VF'' is possibly the most respected fighting franchise in existence, it has ''never'' enjoyed mainstream appeal. Some gamers have speculated that the lack of a clear god-tier is the cause, with reasons ranging from the series thus having no "villain" to root against (like Magneto/Storm/Sentinel in ''[=MvC2=]'' or Fox in ''Melee'') or an overpowered "easy road" to top-level competitive play (like Chun-Li in ''SFIII: Third Strike'' or Lars in ''Tekken 6'').

** In ''Franchise/{{Pokemon}}'', with such a [[LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters large number of characters]] which are largely left for the players to decide what goes on in their minds, players get attached to their team, and when one is suddenly banned, players can feel that it's a personal attack against their friend and partner. Case in point: Mega Kangaskhan, who was liked for her design but was found to be able to power up rapidly due to [[ActuallyFourMooks her signature ability]] being paired with the move [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin Power-Up Punch]]. Because of this, she was one of the few non-[[OlympusMons legendary]] Pokémon banned by Smogon rules in ''VideoGame/PokemonXAndY''. A lot of players who ''were'' glad that she was finally useful in battle were very cheesed off by this news, and the fact that BreakoutCharacter Lucario's Mega Form was banned as well later has turned discussions about Smogon rather violent.

** ''VideoGame/MarvelVsCapcom'' is notorious for having one of the most lopsided tier lists in any game franchise. In [[VideoGame/MarvelVsCapcomClashOfSuperHeroes the first game]], Red Venom (aka "Carnage") was the unquestioned god-tier, and in [[VideoGame/MarvelVsCapcom3 the third game]], Wolverine (with Akuma assist) and Phoenix dominated the original game while Morrigan (with Doom assist), Zero and Vergil are considered the reigning kings of the roster. But the crowning example is ''VideoGame/MarvelVsCapcom2'', where in a title with 56 playable characters, only '''four''' (ComicBook/{{Cable}}, ComicBook/{{Magneto}}, ComicBook/{{Storm}}, and [[ComicBook/DaysOfFuturePast Sentinel]], in various combinations) are considered tournament-viable. Good assist characters like ComicBook/{{Psylocke}}, ComicBook/{{Cyclops}}, ComicBook/DoctorDoom, VideoGame/{{Strider}} Hiryu, and VideoGame/CaptainCommando notwithstanding, those four characters have dominated the ''[=MvC2=]'' scene for more than ten years.

*** ''VideoGame/ProjectM'' [[BrokenBase is a serious point of contention]] in the ''Smash Bros.'' fandom for bringing back ''Melee''[='=]s mechanics, especially among ''Brawl''[='=]s defenders, who accuse it of just being out to ruin what they see as an already-perfect game.

** ''VideoGame/StreetFighterIII'' completely overhauled the gameplay of [[VideoGame/StreetFighterII its]] [[VideoGame/StreetFighterAlpha predecessors]], putting heavy emphasis on [[PunchParry parrying]] and counter attacks. The new gameplay, in addition to almost all the old cast being PutOnABus [[note]]the sole exceptions being Ryu and Ken, and in later installments, Akuma and Chun-Li[[/note]] resulted in the casual crowd overwhelmingly rejecting the game. The competitive crowd, on the other hand, holds the series (particularly ''3rd Strike'') as the silver standard for fighting games (only ''[[VideoGame/StreetFighterII Super Turbo]]'' holds the golden status).

** Is [[VideoGame/HearthstoneHeroesOfWarcraft Hearthstone's]] relative simplicity the perfect platform for a new card game competitive scene, or is it just a fun game to pop in and play a few games with a deck made for ridiculousness?

** VideoGame/PAYDAY2 has two groups that generally butt heads: Stealth heisters and Loud heisters. Debate over which is better, more efficient, or fun tend to devolve quickly.

** ''Franchise/StreetFighter'' began to have this problem upon the release of ''[[VideoGame/StreetFighterIV Super Street Fighter IV: Arcade Edition]]'', which saw the roster of 35 characters expand to 39 with the inclusion of fan-favorite characters Yun, Yang and Evil Ryu, along with the new character Oni. By this point, even prominent Japanese players were stating that there were just too many characters to keep track of. After this, the ''IV'' series topped off with ''[[CapcomSequelStagnation Ultra Street Fighter IV]]'', which then included characters and stages which had been created for ''VideoGame/StreetFighterXTekken'' such as Poison, Hugo, Elena and Rolento, as well as the first playable appearance of Decapre--thus bringing the final roster up to 44. ''VideoGame/StreetFighterV'' continued the trend, starting out with 16 characters upon release, and then adding another 6 with each annual Season update. As of 2019, the roster stood at 37, with at least a few more being promised with further DLC.