This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Drow Lord: Just curious...why is the article title specifically the title of the anime (rather than just plain Tsukihime)?
Citizen: I don't know—it was either one or the other? Though with the anime-discontinuity, how I can never remember "Shingetsutan", and the game being that much better, I guess I should move the page from Shingetsutan Tsukihime to Tsukihime
Rhiow: Speaking of the title, should Kagetsu Tohya link here? Or should that be its own page? There's a lot of tropes that apply to the sequel that don't really apply here.
Koveras: I just started playing the game... but isn't Hisui an example of an Emotionless Girl? At least, she is hell bent on being one so far...
Citizen: Definitely not; this is actually a plot point in the far side routes. Play those and you'll at least understand my position. Come to think of it, this is actually a subversion. I feel better adding spoilers to the main page than here, so off I go.
Drow Lord: ...can't believe I didn't notice that it wasn't there. Especially since she's (or rather, they've) been on that trope's page for a while.
Drow Lord: Really, I'd like to add the Badass Normal entry back in...or at least a Badass Normal entry. That's pretty much what was so special about the Nanaya clan. Aside from the minor latent psychic ability (that they managed to keep by inbreeding), they were noted for fighting demonic and demon-blooded enemies without magic or other supernatural abilities. Fists of Iron, Balls of Brass, and all that jazz. Granted, Shiki's in the giant gray area due to his Mystic Eyes; I think he counts, but I'll leave that alone. Still...discussion?
Citizen: I originally considered Shiki okay as a Badass Normal, but that Conversation In The Main Page tipped me the other way. As badass as Shiki is as an assassin, you just can't consider him normal when he has those Mystic Eyes. The hax those things bestow is well documented elsewhere. The Nanaya clan is better, but that's all distant backstory in the original game/anime, so I'm doubting it worth mentioning. There is that KT-sidestory, but whatever.
Drow Lord: Point taken. Added an entry in that trope's page, instead.
Sean Tucker: Ciel may count somewhat. She's technically superpowered with a Healing Factor, but it has no effect on her fighting prowess; she still needs a BFG (BFS?) to have any hope of so much as scratching Arcueid. Even with the healing factor, she's not even close to invincible; it's more of a literal case of The Only One Allowed to Defeat You that can be bypassed with Shiki hax.
Drow Lord: She's a superpowered, immortal magus with the mana level of a servant spirit. She's definitely not normal.
Drow Lord: Not so sure about the Villain Decay entry, but I can't figure out an exact objection. I trimmed it down to readability (without the gigantic wall of spoiler tag), instead, but I'll leave the original entry here.
- The Big Bad and cause of much of the plot, Roa, who's soul infected SHIKI, making him go crazy becomes less and less important the further down the routes you go. In Arcueid's route he is the Big Bad, and there's an appropriate (though short) Final Battle. In Ciel's route He's killed a while before the end, however his soul then infects Shiki, and the climax of the route is Shiki dealing with this problem, and Arcueid not taking his choice of girlfriend well in the True Ending. In Akiha's route he's completely snapped, and Roa's soul can't exactly influence SHIKI anymore, thus he's more SHIKI then Roa. He's completely nuts and lusts after Akiha, and doesn't have the excuse of being adopted. In the end, after fighting Shiki, he's eaten by the Inverted Akiha. In the Hisui route SHIKI's still crazy, but now he's been reduced to a pawn in Kohaku's plan to kill off the Tohnos, unlike in the past three routes, he didn't even recognize Shiki. Finally, in the Kohaku route he's killed by Akiha, less then halfway through the route, and you don't even realize it until it becomes clear that Akiha's absorbed Roa's soul and has gone appropriately insane. In the end Akiha's able to suppress Roa's soul, so he's not much more then an inconvenience by the end.
Not sure mine is that much of an improvement, though. Might be better to just leave off the details...
Sean Tucker: Is this better?
- Villain Decay - Roa, specifically his SHIKI incarnation, becomes less important the further down the routes you go.
- Arcueid's route - main villain.
- Ciel's route - technically main villain, climax has more to do with the ongoing Love Triangle than with him directly.
- Akiha's route - secondary villain
- Hisui's route - pawn of the Magnificent Bastard
- Kohaku's route - absorbed by Akiha less than halfway in
Pata Hikari: Does All There in the Manual really apply? Since the Visual Novel is the original work and all.
Drow Lord: I think whoever first made this article made it with the anime in mind, where it very much applies. Still, if the definition of that trope is "something with backstory material found in other works," even the original VN applies...though it's really pretty self-contained, except for the extremely curious. They mention the 28 Dead Apostle Ancestors (yes, I realize that Roa is unnumbered, and for very good reason: the other 27 Ancestors are idiots), for example, but only two show up.
It's probably also referring to Kara no Kyoukai, since that actually came out before Tsukihime.
Rhiow: There's a number of outside materials such as Talk. or Kagetsu Tohya that don't merit/have their own pages and apply much more to Tsukihime than the Nasuverse.
Drow Lord: I'm a little confused...what was so confusing and mindscrewy about Arcueid's route? Or Ciel's "Good" ending, for that matter?
Lee: "Ciel's endings are also nigh-incomprehensible." I'm taking this out. I've seen both and while the coma thing is a bit odd the True Ending itself is pretty straightforward. And the Good Ending makes perfect sense. (aside from the whole thing with Kohaku never getting resolved)
Sean Tucker: As the troper who added that, I figure I should justify my addition of it. Arc's route is Mind Screw because of two things:
- First off, there's the constant, always changing flashbacks to Shiki supposedly killing SHIKI. This is weird and random, but aside from that it's straightforward action all through until...
- Roa as SHIKI first stabs you. You then get about 20 pages of pure Expo Speak that just hits you like a ton of bricks. I was literally reduced to muttering "What... the fuck... is going on..." when I first played that bit. It did resolve the flashback bit by explaining the deal with SHIKI, but it also raised more questions with the adoption bit that wouldn't get somewhat resolved until later routes, and that wouldn't get fully resolved until Kagetsu Tohya.
I added Ciel's endings because of the coma bit in the True Ending, and the massive Mood Whiplash in the Good Ending.
Drow Lord: *lip service about "Conversation in the Main Page* I guess it could be added back (though, truth be told, those bastards never got back to me about that Seventh Holy Scripture Ciel figurine).
- Speak for yourself. The music may be lovely originally, but me (and many others) have mixed feelings about it due to the sheer Pavolvian conditioning we have from it (at least one person has pondered that it may be a complex plot to make gamers commit suicide).
- Damn, you kne—?! *cough* I mean...ha ha, how absurd. It's not like I, as an immune, have been paid off in Type-Moon memorabilia to conduct psychological experiments in the matter. That would just be silly.
- Wasn't this already done by Read or Die? Oh yeah...Guess it was!
