This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Alrune: I just created this so examples will come. If you really want examples right here and now, I'll provide you with direct links to the corresponding You Tube vids. Oh and just because YOU don't know about it doesn't mean no one does.
-it might be a genre...animeg3282
Alrune: I have included a courtesy link in order to show some examples as demanded by the cutlister.
Madrugada: In general, Alrune, you should have at the very minimum three specific examples before you make a page. A general pointer like "Just search You Tube for (X)" isn't an example. Wiki Magic is good, but if you think it's a trope, you need to provide some examples, not simply tell everyone else to go find their own. From your description of it, I'm certainly not going to go looking for examples to add.
Alrune: Some tropes such as Most Gamers Are Male or Squick don't have examples and I don't hear anyone complaining. But fair enough. Since this trope deals with a particular type of fan-made video, I don't see how I could provide examples other that linking directly to them. I don't ask anyone to do the "example-finding" job in my stead, it's just that it usually speaks for itself to browse for it on You Tube. But then again, if you believe it's inappropriate, I'll deal with it.
Madrugada Tropes which have no examples are that way because there was a consensus decision to not have examples. The most common reasons for "No examples please" is that the trope is omnipresent, incredibly subjective, or Flame Bait. What you did by saying "Search You Tube" isroughly the equivalent of saying "for examples of <this genre> go to the library." That's not how we do it here.
Alrune: Then go and ask the cutlister. Also, I wasn't aware of the "3 minimum examples" thing since there were tropes with no examples. He demanded examples and YKTTW when this trope is very idiosyncratic hence doesn't need YKTTW, which isn't the committee of acceptable tropes BTW. As for examples I'll just list a few so that it no longer feels inappropriate. I deeply apologize for my outrageous inexperience, it's actually the first trope I create that isn't about a show.
And BTW, in order to make this discussion constructive, would it be acceptable for me to list examples with a direct link to it since it's virtually the only way to present concrete examples or should I do otherwise?
Antheia: When you say "this trope is very idiosyncratic hence doesn't need YKTTW", what do you mean? Why wouldn't idiosyncratic tropes benefit from going through YKTTW? The only articles that really don't need YKTTW are articles on works.
By the way, you might find the Three Rules Of Three helpful.
Madrugada: Direct links would be fine. Don't fret about your inexperience, (although you may want tolook at the Welcome page
and take a gander at the links to the various guidelines there (the YKTTW, and Administrative Policy. And please don't take having something cutlisted as an attack — it's not. It's a way to get rid of bad pages, yes, but as often as not, a page that's been cutlisted and defended will then be adopted and become a very good page.
@Antheia Well, the problem with Ryona is its very nature. Finding a title that wouldn't be considered too offensive would have been a little difficult and also, all videos that apply are clearly labelled under this name which is why I didn't got through YKTTW. Also I had already created tropes about shows, it's the first I create which isn't so I thought it worked the same way. Thanks for the link, BTW.
@Madrugada I understand better know thanks. I will provide these examples.
Madrugada: You handled the examples beautifully. .*applause*. The subject is still offensive as ever, but you did a very good job of making the information available.
Alrune: Thanks for the praise! I know the subject is controversial and offensive but sometimes things like this need to come to the light, don't you think?
PuppetChaos: Permission to be perplexed by this, please?
Alrune: Sure. Express yourself.
PuppetChaos: FSGDDSAWEAACVEAGJFWJFLKGLGKWL:GJAOMALJGNEWGOJWEGKLJADSLJAJEGf98238yhcc I didn't even know about this until 15 minutes ago, and I honestly feel a little sick to my stomach. Do people really get off to this stuff?
If these people want male empowerment, they should just watch Getter Robo or something and shout the attack names in unison with the anime.
tl;dr - When I, a lonely nerd with self-admitted sexist tendencies think it's gross, it's gross. I'm going to cry now.
Alrune: I know it's gross. But some people fap to it obviously... Reassuring to have a healthy reaction to it though.
PuppetChaos: I think another part of my reaction is/was that in fighting games, for some mysterious reason I gravitate to playing as female characters. It's because they're typically fast attackers/speed characters and I'm bad with the power characters, I swear!
Alrune: No it's perfectly understandable. As a female I naturally select female characters when I play fighting games but it's also because I'm not that efficient when using characters of the Mighty Glacier type. Too slow, too easy to combo the shit out of them. I understand your stance in the matter.
Pacific: the paragraph (cut slightly): "Still it should be noted that Ryona videos mostly concern classic one-on-one fighting games ... their reaction is much less positive when they discover them." Seems superfluous and doesn't really help. Also it strikes me as being gender un-neutral.
Vulpy: You know, I'd like to think of myself as a reasonably seasoned internet veteran. I know plenty of things that cause real-life sanity damage are online, and I try not to look too hard for them. But... Mein Gott. Seriously? I think some of these guys need to get laid. Then again, I'm afraid some of them might.
Alrune: I once argued over one of these videos with a guy who said that I should look deeper in sexual fantasies and that girls also like watching these. Not to mention he initially thought I could only be a guy or a G.I.R.L., which says a lot about the videos' intended demographics. But then the guy said he had a girl and that he still like watching these vids. I guess some men are never satisfy, no matter what they get...
CrazyHand: Would this count as a subset of Gorn as it prevokes a similar response i.e. squick, questions about the makers sanity.
Ace Of Scarabs: I'm filing this genre under Do Not Want.
- @CrazyHand: it's rather gorn-like, yes.
MercuryinRetrograde: IMHE Gorn for Girls isn't more rare, it's just in a different medium, drawing vs. film.
Twin Bird: Don't get me wrong; this kind of video is absolutely disgusting. However, I can't be the only one who thinks we may be reading too harshly into the psychology of those making and watching it, can I? In fact, I think it might be best just to say "to each his own" and get rid of such analysis entirely.
I just went ahead with it, as I usually do, because, frankly, no one reads discussions until a change is made.
Alrune: Sure you can. Just like I can revert your edit. I don't know if you're the one who has been trying to edit the Double Standard entry into something more complacent for males but trying to make it look less harsh in order not to feel "judged" hints at the fact that you might be a Ryona lover or just wanting to put it under a positive light so to make it less offensive. You recent edits on Double Standard were far from unbiased as well.
Twin Bird: Right. I must be a secret lover of ryona just because I don't want to turn a trope page into a diatribe on how all its fans are wife-beaters in the making. That's the only conceivable reason. Do you see any other page where the bulk of it is accusing fans of being violent criminals in the making? Even Lolicon and Shotacon are willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, even though whether or not they commit criminal acts, they are, by definition, pedophiles. No. We don't need pages like this.
Also, since I'd been the one who'd dropped the ball, I was willing to let it go, but I'm going back and fixing the Double Standard page now.
Alrune: You're not the one to decide what is good or not. Especially if you didn't create the page yourself. I agree to make some concessions but my message will remain. Yes I'm being harsh. Ryona viewers are not especially kind to women either, especially when one talks to them. So I'm gonna edit back to what it was, period. And BTW, Shotacon and Lolicon are definitely NOT the same thing so don't compare what isn't comparable.
Madrugada: It doesn't matter anymore that you created the page, Alrune. Once you posted it, it stopped being your page and became everybody's page, and that means that anybody can edit it. Frankly, this wiki is not the place for accusatory socio-psycho analysis of why people like something. It's out of place on this page, just like it's out of place on the Double Standard page. And if you keep putting it back, other editors will keep taking it out. It's not your soapbox.
Alrune: I know that it's not my page. And I'm no longer interested in back-and-forth editing so have it your way. If you find my words accusatory, then I apologize. I created this page not very long after having a very nasty conversation with a Ryona lover hence I was pissed. But the motivations behind such videos remain what they are. Not my fault if the genre is so blatantly sexist. You can call me a Straw Feminist all you want, you may see on said Double Standard page that I also added tropes that are sexist against men.
Alrune: @ MercuryinRetrograde: First let me commend you on trying to find an equivalent to Ryona. But sorry baby, Gorn For Girls isn't Ryona's counterpart and for a very good reason:
Most your examples come from Yaoi Gallery, which by essence features male-on-male scenes. Gorn For Girls would have been said Distaff Counterpart if it featured woman-on-man violence. It doesn't. Yes most creators are female but what you call Gorn For Girls is a section of Guro which exists for both men and women.
Hence no, Gorn For Girls isn't Ryona's Distaff Counterpart. Said counterpart might exist, but it's just not this. —-
MercuryinRetrograde: Don't call me baby, m'kay? Creators of Ryona also use female-on-female violence, and you're not making much of the distinction. The point is that a female(or male) creator is depicting and enjoying violence done to a male(or female) character. (A lot of the violence in Gorn for Girls doesn't even have an actor, just a male victim.}} It may be even more sinister that they're employing someone _of the same gender_ to do it. Incidentally, I don't feel judged because I'm not a man nor do I like Ryona. What's irritating me is the overwhelming and hysterical 'men are such baaaaaaastards' in Ryona. Particularly when it's easy enough to find women who like and create the same damn stuff. Ugh.
Alrune: Baby, you're not a woman.
Also, yes there is some Ryona that features female-on-female violence but it's a rather small percentage of the whole thing. Gorn For Girls belongs to Guro, it's a redundancy. Not making it any less appalling, that is true.
About the whole "men are bastards" thing, yes some women take it too far. But it's not a reason for you to try and bias all Double Standard in favor of men just because you don't want people to believe men are bastards. We don't. We know many of the Unfortunate Implications of Double Standard are shit.
MercuryInRetrograde: [1]
◊ Ryona is just as much a subset of Gorn as Gorn for Girls.
This whole argument is an example of how Men Are the Expendable Gender gets perpetuated in society. We don't care about violence against men in part because we see any random man as guilty until proven otherwise. Ryona lasers in on one male dominated portion of a larger fandom—guro—which has male and female fans and then analyzed said male fans' psychology to extrapolate to all men via its last statement about AllMenArePerverts. This dynamic adds to the cultural attitude that 'men are guilty until proven otherwise so it's okay to hurt/kill them'. Thus it supports the DoubleStandard.
Alrune: I have replied to that on the Double Standard discussion. I also have deleted the last line so there are no misinterpretations of what I intended to mean originally. And I never said it was okay to kill/hurt men. Have you edited Men Are the Expendable Gender in light of what is discussed here? I thought it was interesting all in all.
MercuryinRetrograde: So Ryona needs it's own trope separate from Gorn because it's fans are assholes and everyone needs to know this?
Alrune: So Gorn For Girls needs its own trope separate from Gorn because its fans are bitches and everyone needs to know this? Let's not do the whole back and forth thing again, shall we? It's not interesting. Unless you REALLY want to.
MercuryinRetrograde: Gorn For Girls has been deleted.
Alrune: You are free to put what you said in the main Gorn entry. It belonged there in any case.
MercuryinRetrograde: And Ryona doesn't? Except for it being fanwork, what makes it different from Gorn?
Alrune: As I already said Gorn is a genre that applies to both men and women. There are Gorn depictions of women (mostly) and some of them feature men. Still Ryona takes Gorn to eleven. It's made especially to take out the makers/viewers hatred on women.
I understand that MANY Gorn works could easily pass off as this but on Ryona, it's explicitly stated so by the viewers and makers. Gorn can sometimes be non-intentional (a graphic depiction of an injury which becomes Fetish Fuel through Fan Wank). Ryona is ALWAYS intentional. Also what mattered in Gorn For Girls, is that the depiction of mutilated men isn't always aimed for one specific audience. Ryona neither, that's true
MercuryinRetrograde: So the main problem with Ryona is that it's fanbase is misogynist aka. assholes. You know what? You win. I think this is highly prejudicial and is a trope limited to a very few number of people on the internet. Which says a lot about it's individual fans but nothing about gender in general. Certainly nothing compared to other more widespread, mainstream tropes and memes. But there's no way I'm going to spend time trying to find a bunch of women who've created fan films glorifying misandry and violent abuse of men. Although I do know of a film that did it: Baise Moi. And there's always S.C.U.M. and all it's various imitators. But these aren't fanworks.
Alrune: Thank you for expressing better than I what I meant.
Yes, Ryona fans ARE misogynistic but this doesn't apply to men in general. And that's all I wanted to say.
Now, to answer your last statement, I never scanned the Internet for Ryona, I stumbled on it. Now maybe there ARE vids/fanworks that are just Ryona's counterpart but I've never seen it.
As for the film you mentioned, I know it very well because it's one of the few films in recent history - the only one to my knowledge - to be so explicitly misandrist. I also know the background of it: the realisators are a former porn actress and a Lesbian writer who hired 2 former porn actresses who had become disgusted with porn industry. The taller one was a Broken Bird and committed suicide some time after the film's release, the smaller one is a Psycho Lesbian who hates men especially porn viewers and who was belated to be able to impersonate a complete bitch who abuses and kills men.
As for S.C.U.M and its derivatives, I think it's Self Explanatory. Do you want me to rewrite the entry so that it's made clearer that the whole misogyny accusation concerns ONLY Ryona viewers but not men in general? Or do you want to do it yourself?
MercuryinRetrograde: What amazes me is that something like Blaise Moi got funding. I don't think anything that explicitly misogynist, that's entirely about men taking their aggressions out on women by killing them in brutal ways would ever see the light of day in the film industry. As for S.C.U.M., what's creepy is that she has _followers_. There exist people who believe in this crap and style their lives after it. Again, I can't see something so explicitly misogynous getting that sort of fanbase-cut women up, replace them with robots. At least prior to the Internet which means any three people with an ax to grind can look like a movement. Also, I know one biopic that portrayed Solanis as a sympathetic character. Which is fine because she probably was more unhinged then outright evil, but could you imagine the same latitude granted a misogynist male counterpart-who tried to shoot women? But that's an aside to the point at hand.
I think your suggestion would help, but ultimately what distinguishes Ryona from Gorn is that you don't like the motives of the creators.(Nether do I, personally.) It's not a separate genre or trope. It'd be sort of like creating another category of Yaoi, called, I dunno, Girls Are Icky, because the fans like Yaoi specifically because they hate girls. It has nothing to do with the actual content of the work and just is a judgment on the creators and fans.
But, then again, there is HetIsEw, so I dunno. Maybe this belongs more in Fandumb then DoubleStandard.
Ryonafan500: Hey, as you can tell I happen to be a fan of 'Ryona,' here are just a couple of things you guys may have missed:
1: It's rare, but ryona focusing on men does exist. Please see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4m1eYMmnkw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDGOVzzuNUU
And just search for 'link ryona' on Youtube to see several videos of Link from The Legend of Zelda (link is a male) being abused.
2: Contra what alrune said, 'girl on girl' ryona is actually fairly common. See
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deO8usmJpzM (DOA girls abusing other DOA girls)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwej5K15TTA (Nina, a female, abusing Lili, a female)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cVobYX3hlE (girls bearhugging each other throughout this video)
and so on. i don't have time at the moment to find lots more, but if you'd even bothered to spend only a little more time than i did actually looking through ryona videos, you'd see that females hurting females is only marginally less represented than females hurting males.
3: a few ryona afficionados go out of their way to distance themselves from outright misogyny, or at the very least don't mention it as a cause for their fetish. please see the profiles of some ryona fans on youtube, such as:
http://www.youtube.com/user/clanclanssdssd (*explicitly states* his fetish "is not borne from a hatred of women")
http://www.youtube.com/user/thesolekeeper (finds barefoot and unconscious girls sexy, gives no indication he hates women)
http://www.youtube.com/user/ninjaryona (explicitly distances himself from 'more gory' stuff)
again, i could go on, but imo you could give these guys at least a bit of analysis before labeling ryona fans in general as 'misogynistic.' some of us almost certainly are, but not all of us.
still, i get the feeling you're simply going to ignore all the examples i've provided because they don't agree with your worldview, and that's fine, i'm not going to start an edit war, but i do hope you won't mind me making one information edit? it might be nice for readers to know where the word 'ryona' actually comes from. according to wikipedia, the word 'ryona' is a portmanteau of the Japanese words for 'bizarre' and 'masturbation,' and the folks at gurochan seem to agree with that definition, see the last post in:
http://orz.gurochan.net/dis/archive/1217310529
i hope that helps if nothing else.
best regards, a fan of ryona
Alrune: I'm happy that someone concerned took the time to come and discuss but unfortunately, I'm gonna prove you wrong.
1. I never said Ryona doesn't exist on males, I said it was extremely rare, which is true. The ratio between male and female victims of Ryona is indisputable.
2. I said female-on-female existed but that it was less common. One more time, you didn't read properly.
3. You don't get me started on that. I have talked to quite a few Ryona aficionados and misogyny IS their main motivation, and they're very nasty about it. Even more so when they found out I was a woman.
Ryona IS a misogynistic genre by nature. Actually, it's so blatant that all female gamers I've introduced it to find it disgusting, especially the comments. Saying that you're not a chauvinist when you specialize in such a hobby sounds more than a tad fishy to me. The justifications I've heard were so lame they were pitiful. Things like "but women enjoy being treated like that" or "anyone who thinks Ryona is sexist knows nothing about the complexity of human fantasy"... Impressive.
But I am not going to erase your edit since it's a nice addition to the main article.
Thanks for dropping by.
Ryonafan500: hi alrune, thanks for your response.
1: fair enough, the link ryona is the only one ive been able to find. linking to those youtube videos might be good, though, if only for amusement value (one of the comments on one of the link ryona videos is 'BO Yona?') and curiosity.
2: you said, according to the discussion page, " [female on female] is a rather small percentage of the whole thing." actually, it isn't. looking at today's uploads of ryona, nov. 2 2009, there are seven videos, specifically 4 of which depict a female character getting beat up by another female character. according to youtube, over 40 videos have been uploaded with the tag 'ryona' this week, and just going through the first 2 pages of results there are 11 videos involving women beating women (to be charitable to you, i didn't count those videos which involved both women and men beating women). a few more ryona videos might be uploaded later today, so to be most charitable to you let's say 11 out of 50 involves woman-on-woman ryona, which would be about 22%. again, these are some really off the cuff statistics and would be invalid in a scholarly context, but i think they'll suffice just as a start. for the purposes of argument, if we accept that a little over a fifth of ryona videos are woman-on-woman, if you consider that to still be a "rather small percentage," thats fine and i won't argue with you, but i think the disctinction may be important for accuracy because several ryona fans actually specifically get off on watching women beat each other. some find it very arousing to see one woman 'dominating' another or just like 'catfighting' or whatever. to be as accurate as possible i personally wouldn't downplay the woman-on-woman aspect of ryona.
3: well, okay, i wont argue with you. i would ask how many is "quite a few" and who exactly you talked to, but if you had negative experiences with those kinds of people i won't pry, and ill instead just apologize on behalf of ryona fans in general. at the very least, however, it might be worth noting in the article that some ryona fans at least publically deny misogyny as a motivation. you can work in some snarky comments about how they're in "denial" or whatever and that might suit it even better.
finally, thanks for accepting my edit. as i said, i don't want any edit wars, however, i think i have one more complaint about accuracy in the article as it stands. It currently says,
"What is known as Ryona is a specific kind of video, found usually on You Tube, Dailymotion or on any other video-broadcasting website, that features the fatalities of classical fighting games such as Mortal Kombat, Samurai Shodown... It can also feature the beatdown or shooting of a specific character in other game types...It should be noted that Ryona videos mostly concern classic one-on-one fighting games"
this is not entirely accurate. while i'm glad you mention "other game types," there are several aspects of the ryona phenomena you miss:
1: ryona doesn't necessarily encompass *only* videos of games, clips of various animes with girls getting hurt and drawn pictures from fans are considered 'ryona' as well. for examples, please see:
http://www.youtube.com/user/hi3500 (specializes in still pictures he makes of women getting hurt)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2teoEe0PR4 (this and other videos related to it show 'ryona' scenes from an anime)
and this japanese Ryona board,
http://w5.oekakibbs.com/bbs/ryona2/oekakibbs.cgi
which focuses entirely on drawn pictures of girls being hurt. they're from anime, manga, and a wide variety of other sources, not just 'classical fighting games.'
2: most importantly, while videos of fighting games constitute a significant portion of ryona videos uploaded, they do not "mostly" concern fighting games. on youtube, many of the earliest ryona videos came not only from survival horror games (such as Resident Evil or Fatal Frame) or 3rd person action games. currently, there are even some ryona videos involving scenes from RP Gs. in my experience, most ryona fans don't care about fighting game ryona specifically, it's simply that fighting games often have many strong, attractive female characters, which make them more appealing. almost any game that shares that characteristic, regardless of genre, would be a good choice for ryona. although most of the videos uploaded this month to youtube are from fighting games (im seeing a lot of Street Fighter, Tekken, and DOA on there) this is not always the case, as if you look back previous months can sometimes see a total dearth of fighting game ryona while seeing a lot of survival horror or action ryona being put up.
thus, that being said, here are the edits i am considering: 1: mentioning and linking to the examples i mentioned here of ryona fans claiming not to be misogynistic, with the caveat that it sounds like a Suspiciously Specific Denial 2: removing the references to fighting games specifically and making clear that ryona, most broadly and commonly defined, is simply a fetish revolving around watching women get hurt or killed, and can be found on youtube involving girls often from fighting games, but from other genres as well, including survival horror and anime. 3: a passing reference to the few male ryona videos on youtube, noting how ryona fans didn't react to them enthusiastically.
do these edits seem reasonable? i wanted to check with you first so i wouldn't start an edit war, if any of them are okay with you i'll begin work on the article. thanks for your time.
best regards, a ryona fan
Alrune: You're welcome. As for your replies, here goes:
1. About Ryona on men, you're examples need to be a little bit more relevant if you want to add one. Just because the user wants to call it as such, doesn't mean it is. A Ryona vid is about much gorier violence ie with blood and dismemberment, not about slapstick. Also the abuse should be done by a woman or another man but not by some non-sexed fantasy critter. Not to mention the examples you've referred to didn't carry any sexual humiliation undertone, except perhaps in the first part of the first one.
2. You can bring this modification up if you stay truthful about it, meaning if you clearly state that the ratio between male-on-female as opposed to female-on-female is much greater.
3. Apologies accepted. I talked with about 10 Ryona-lovers and none of them were either nice or not contemptuous. About the names, I can give a few if you really want to but I'd rather do it in PM if you don't mind.
About your other queries:
1. What you describe belongs to Gorn. What you can say on the other hand (which I planned to BTW) is that Ryona is a subtrope of Gorn. About the anime thing, I did mention it as such in the main page.
2. This I also covered by putting up examples of survival games.
About the rest:
1. If you want to, go ahead.
2. As I already said, I covered this, if you want I can add the other game types but the drawn depictions of women being hurt belong to Gorn. Why? Because Gorn specializes in making physical injuries erotic, be it on males or females. Sometimes, Gorn is unintentional and becomes such through Fan Wank. Ryona is ALWAYS intentional.
3. Alright but find relevant, truly violent ones. Maybe my conception is limited but to me, it would be a Ryona-vid on men if it featured either a woman abusing a man, either a stronger man abusing a weaker man, both of them with sexual or misandrist intentions. The Legend Of Zelda is a little too "cute" to be actually considered Ryona.
Thanks.
ryonafan500 Alrune, thanks for your response. ill make a few edits shortly, feel free to revert or edit as you see fit afterwards. mentioning this as a subtrope of gorn would definitely be appropriate, i agree.
ArmedDragoon: What a spectacular amount of effort for a waste of a page. I guess people are willing to call anything a trope these days.
Alrune: Oh look! A Troll! Hadn't seen one in ages!
ArmedDragoon: How nice. This still isn't a trope. It's a ridiculously specific and overly meta version of Gorn. It can't even live on as a subtrope because its existence is so low-key and unknown to everyone that isn't into it already. There aren't any examples from any media source, all of them are purely meta. Feel free to say what you want, but this isn't a trope.
Alrune: Good for you. It has been cutlisted (by you if I remember correctly) but it hasn't been erased then I guess it's validated. If you're so obfuscated, then take it to the site's staff.
Ryonafan500: hey armeddragoon, i can understand your points but i do believe ryona is a trope, even if as you said it's a pretty obscure one. people *have* taken note of it, see this article on somethingawful: http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/youtalk-japanese-punching.php?page=1
it's not *that* non-notable, a lot of people these days have seen something marked 'ryona' on the internet and look it up to see what it means. that's why ive been talking about improving this article, if nothing else i'd like the information other people get about my fetish to be as accurate as possible, no matter how unflattering.
ArmedDragoon: Alrune; I didn't "cutlist" anything. I haven't touched anything on this page, because I refuse to work on anything here that isn't actually a trope.
Ryonafan; A trope is defined as being a pattern or theme in media. At worst, it's a full-blown cliche. At best, it's a preferred tool that enriches the quality of the media it resides in, while in between it's just something that exists commonly. Ryona isn't any of these things. People want to know what it is? They can go to Wikipedia for all the facts with none of the psychobabble.
Ryonafan500: armeddragoon, i mostly agree with you (IMO the wikipedia article is the best, in fact IMO wikipedia is better in pretty much every respect than tvtropes in general) but the way i see it someone was bound to make an article about it on here eventually. alrune seems intent on 'raising people's awareness' of it, and to be fair to her ryona, as defined as people getting off from girls getting hurt, *is* a pattern or theme in media. games like rumble roses are built around it, games like dead or alive feature it heavily, and many anime revolve around it, the wiki article notes a few. it's certainly an obscure, unpopular 'pattern or theme in media,' but qualifies as one all the same. if it's going to end up on tvtropes, i'd prefer the article on it is as accurate as possible, as i said.
Alrune: @ ArmedDragon: Nobody asked you anything. If you really don't like this page, why do you even bother coming up here and start an argument?
wit: I've seen puzzle bosses which are basically doing the same thing to the musclebound men ryona usually "stars" with frail men or even women delivering the increasing magnitude of punishment. How that isn't considered sexy (which it is, imo) I will never know. I think the Trapt/Deception series is also an inversion of this.
Glutton: Hey all, I'm a ryona fan and I don't think I'm a misogynist. The appeal of ryona for me is that I love tough women, and in my mind seeing them take a massive beating shows how tough they are. I like to imagine that they can get back up and often pay their attacker back, too... here's an example of my kind of ryona fantasy (yes, it's my youtube channel): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_pTOcpvfPM
Glutton: But I guess my particular fetish would be more accurately labeled as "Nigh-Indestructible Damage Soaking Chicks Who Can't Hardly Stay Down", although the ryona element is obviously there.
Caswin: I feel very strange asking this, but after reading your version... well, I have to ask: Where's the "payback" element?
PuppetChaos: I normally don't say this, but... What the fuck.
Glutton: Chicks who can get back up looking angry after being stabbed in the guts, impaled through the chest, shot up, sliced to ribbons, beaten with a hammer, blown up, burnt to a crisp, bathed in acid, pumped full of deadly poison, thrown off a mountain, and pummeled by large men/monsters are FUCKING AWESOME.
Is there really something wrong with having a soft spot for nearly unkillable badasses of the opposite sex?
PuppetChaos: I've already expressed my opinion on this whole Ryona thing, in eloquent Angrish, my "WTF" was more towards the massive sprawling size and amount of drama (and accusations of sexism towards the guy who suggested cutlisting it...) of this discussion page.
Alrune: @PuppetChaos: Most of the wank comes from one specific troper who simply specializes in finding a reverse Double Standard for each and every trope that is sexist to women. Look up each and every Double Standard trope, you will find said troper on the discussion. Feel free to cutlist if you will, I still think we can just remove all the discussion around this between me and said troper if this is what disturbs you (which I did).
Madrugada Alrune, editing out discussion is a huge don't. Especially editing out someone else's comments on the discussion page. That's a banning offense.
Alrune: Fixed.
Don: If you argue with white knights, then the terrorists win.
Caswin: I don't follow the bit about "white knights", but "unkillable and ready to get up for more" seems to be more of a niche within the subculture than the norm. The cries of something being "wrong" come from depictions of women being hurt, beaten, horribly tortured, and so forth out of a perverted enjoyment (I'd say it has a lot to do with a "domination" factor, but don't quote me on that) of... well, all of the above 'cause the chick's gettin' it and that's tight, man.
Trigger Loaded: Is it a decay or an expansion of the original definition that I've seen Ryona come to mean pretty much any kind of violence on women? Be it from another woman, a big muscular man, or a monster? Or be it bloody or simply hard-hitting, like a suplex? Basically, I'm wondering if the definition should be expanded to show how many people are using the term a fair bit more generally than what seems to have been the original intention.
Also in how Ryona can include situations where, as Glutton mentiones above, the girl gets back up and is ready for more.
