Cosmetor: Okay... you launched the trope prematurely, miscounted the votes, and created an empty page. That's three strikes against it.
Roland: Considering the page's description, the humor of the name, the picture used, and the fact that More Dakka was the creator's preference, I think it's a fitting name. Remember, we're going for humor as well as encyclopedia use- we are not The Other Wiki and don't always need matter-of-fact names. In fact, the crusade against humorous names and the like that seems to be sweeping the site seems both counterintuitive and contrary to the original theme and feel, to me.
If you really hate the name so very much, then make a redirect with the name you prefer. More Dakka should stay the primary name.
Large Blunt Object: Stop shoving your damn butthurt in everyone's face, it's disgusting. Your little TV TROPES IS SERIOUS BUSINESS crusade fell apart, get over it.
Regarding the miscounting of votes for the title. For More Dakka: J Bridge, Heliomance, Caphi, Mio, UKT 66.126.187.197, UKT 64.19.158.226, me. Seven votes. For Bullet Barrage: Narvi, UKT 85.196.168.118, Bobby G, robert, you. Five votes. Seven is more than five. More Dakka is a funny and perfectly descriptive title, and if you hate it so much make some boring "Bullet Barrage" redirect for your own use.
The page was not launched prematurely; the YKTTW was up for three days, launched with a complete writeup and fourteen examples and was considered to be "just about ready" by J Bridge on the YKTTW a day before I launched it. Since, unlike the vast majority of launches, I actually bothered to Entry Pimp it and link up everywhere, it has plenty of wicks, meaning the Wiki Magic will help it get many more. Either way, there are many, many worse, half-done tropes pushed through with two or three examples and no linking in the last month, leading me to believe you're calling me out on it to get at me, rather than because of the page.
And, you know, the time between hitting the "launch" button and having a complete page up is needed to write up the examples, upload the image, link up the categories and check all the markup. I'm sorry I can't do all this instantly, and sorrier still that you apparently know nothing about the launching process.
tl;dr: Piss off, nobody cares.
Robert: Seven-five is close enough to 50-50 as makes no difference, not a convincing consensus, and the discussion was still active. Who knows, if you'd waited another half hour, the voting might have been 8-7. Further, this page doesn't even explain where the neologism, 'dakka', comes from. Having fun is important, but it's not the only thing that matters; if people can't find the pages they can't appreciate the humour in them.
If you've got a list of 'many, many worse, half-done tropes pushed through with two or three examples and no linking in the last month', don't use that as an excuse to push through your own agenda. Go through those tropes and improve them.
Cosmetor: Gee, way to totally explode. Seriously, I appreciate humor, but not at the expense of meaning or clarity. The title More Dakka is neither comprehensible nor funny unless you get the reference. It only makes the page less accessible to users in general. A page title should ideally be descriptive and funny, and should be descriptive first if it can't be both - we're here to describe tropes, and if we aren't describing tropes we're losing our way. Let the site be what it is, please.
Random Trope Surfer: I'm sorry, but: "The title More Dakka is neither comprehensible nor funny unless you get the reference." Doesn't that apply to about 70% of all the trope names in this entire Wiki? If you want to give a trope some comprehensible text-book style term, then you might as well be going through and petitioning to rename the majority of the site's pages. I have seen tropes with MUCH more obscure names, and this is at the low end of the scale.
A simple sentence referring to the origin of the term "more Dakka" wouldn't be too hard to edit in, especially since its source is listed in the array of examples. The name, at least I think so, is catchy and really pretty funny. Calling it "bullet barrage" to me sounds more like what it is, instead of a humorous description thereof, especially since "dakka" is an onomatopeia.
Robert: Comprehensible is not synonymous with text book style. Names can be both comprehensible and funny, an ideal to aim for. Many of the more obscure names have few wicks precisely because of that. Other, of course, don't - Jonas Quinn, for example - but they're mostly legacy names, from when the site was smaller. There was a time when tropers could remember the entire index, so obscurity wasn't a problem, but those days are long gone.
"Dakka" is not exactly in the same league as "Tick Tock"; rather, it's an obscure in-joke from a single game franchise. While it is indeed simple enough to add an explanation to this page, that doesn't help with the links to it. Using our internal jargon in the middle of a show's page is generally not a good idea. When it doesn't even sound like a real word, that's worse, which means redirects and lots of {Pot Holes - annoying for editing, and the supposed benefits of the term get lost.
Large Blunt Object: The accusation was "miscounting the votes". I didn't.
The accusation was the entry was launched prematurely. It wasn't, and there are many, many worse more for Cosmetor to bitch about. I'm not the one on the little "everything has to be perfect! opinions are a hate crime!" crusade, he is. I don't have the time or the inclination to constantly bitch about other pages; since he does, I suggest he find better targets, especially considering his recent embarrassments.
The accusation was the page was "launched empty". This just shows that Cosmetor is trying to be a dick.
I laughed at "Using our internal jargon in the middle of a show's page is generally not a good idea." Using jargon is what we do on this site. It is impossible to count the number of in-jokes, references and strange terms chucked about on an hourly basis, and this isn't a bad thing. If someone sees a page here with a title they don't get, curiosity is more likely to get them to click on it and continue. Free use of funny and memorable terms is part of what makes this place great; if you want a jargon-free encyclopedia, go somewhere else. And don't tell me some crap about "more jargon makes the problem worse" or "stopping the rot from spreading", this is sheer pettiness that you didn't get the title you wanted and the "rot" is already completely ingrained.
Plenty of our far more esoteric (but memorable) phrases and names, like (as you said) Jonas Quinn, are common knowledge because they got thrown around a lot and people gained an easy familiarity with the term. This is what I am trying to do with this page. You going about and changing the links is only going to make the perceived problem worse, because the more links there are to it under this name the quicker it gets into the troper hivemind. Stop it. It's counterproductive and it just screams butthurt about the name not going your way.
As per reasonable request, explanatory sentence goes in (a definition as a title quote, no less!). Add Bullet Barrage when you're adding this to new pages, if you absolutely must; do not go about destroying this page's wick count by fucking with the links I made the effort to add. It's petty, pointless and pathetic.
Robert: Votes were coming in every half hour or so, on both sides. That makes cutting off the discussion premature. Note too, some people wanted Flying Wall Of Lead, which is effectively a vote against the other two alternatives.
As for the amount of internal jargon in the write up, we need to strike a balance. A moderate amount is funny, as well as useful, but there is such a thing as too much. The line is subjective, of course, and changes as the site grows, but that's why informal consensus matters - not rigid wikipedia style vote counting, but decisions with general support and no vehement objections
I'm not wedded to Bullet Barrage - that was merely the most popular jargon free suggestion. Flying Wall Of Lead would also have been fine, as would Hail/Rain/River of Bullets, and many others. Nor do I object to all new non-English terms on principle. There are circumstances where the use of such is justified, but this does not feel like one of them.
Yes, people can follow links, but there are limits to human patience. Sir Humprhey's memos would be perfectly comprehensible if every word were hyperlinked to a dictionary, but they would still be badly written. Similarly, here we shouldn't test peoples patience too far. Rather, when using internal jargon in the descriptive, we should hide it under a pot hole, or a redirect, hence the constructive changes I made. You may have noticed I didn't alter any indexes, where this doesn't apply, or any warhammer related pages, where the word is entirely appropriate.
Further, while I respect the obvious passion you feel, might I suggest you might want to consider if a slightly calmer tone might conceivably help.
Drascin: To be honest, I'm with LBO on this one (and that might be a first). I chuckled at the page, and I'm no big fan of Warhammer - most I know of it comes from Dawn Of War. I feel the quote on top of the page does more than enough to explain the neologism, and as written, "More Dakka" has the advantage of not only encapsulating the trope, but also the mentality behind it in a way "Barrage of Bullets" really doesn't.
Shazzbaa: I second Drascin. I've never played Warhammer and I've never heard the term "More Dakka" before, but now having read the trope, I certainly understand what it means and rather like the term. A lot of trope titles aren't immediately recognisable, but we tend to learn and start using new words/phrases based on this wiki, which is why we all sound like Darmok and Jellad at Tanagra when we talk to each other. Most tropers will understand and remember what this is after they've read it.
I didn't think YKTTW was so strict about votes and jazz, I always understood it as "help filling out a trope" and "a way to avoid looking like an idiot by posting a non-viable/pre-existing trope." I saw 30 replies, plenty of examples, and a majority of votes for the current title, which seems like enough; I suppose it would be more polite to wait until everyone on the wiki had a chance to vote for whatever title they wanted and reach some sort of Congressional consensus, but not required, and the current title isn't offensive/terrible, just not (in the opinion of some) optimal, so it works.
Robert: Notice the guideline in bold at the end of YKTTW Guidelines: 'Do not launch a trope if it is not ready. If there's disagreement ...' That is only a guideline, of course, but it is good advice, nonetheless, as has been demonstrated. I've explicitly rejected wikipedia style vote counting or seconding or suchlike, which no one else is calling for anyway: it's simply not an issue. It's simply smoother if we don't cut discussions off in the middle, but rather allow time for a general informal consensus to develop. As Shazzbaa says, it's ultimately about politeness which, at heart, is a way of reducing social friction, thus stopping fires.
If the consensus ends up being that this trope should have a bad name (for more reasons than one), then so be it, but hopefully people will at least take heed of the probable consequences of excessive haste.
Rogue 7: Along with "Waaaaaaaggggghhhh!" and "Blood for the Blood God", More Dakka is probably one of the most well-known catchphrases of Warhammer40000, so much so that anyone who has even dabbled in the fandom will have heard of it. And the moment you click the link, you have a perfectly appropriate image and a quote that should automatically clear up any confusion you might have, assuming you're not pants-on-head retarded. The title perfectly encapsulates the trope if you know what it's talking about. Now, that's a large "if", to be certain, but A) It's easily described on the page (and more effectively than other titles that I don't see anyone complaining about) and B) That happens a lot around here. The examples I usually bust out for these types of discussions are Heel–Face Turn and Face–Heel Turn. Being one who dislikes professional wrestling, I had no experience with these terms before I came on-site, and they did not strike me as any type of example about characters switching sides. However, after about two minutes of reading the tropes, I got it quite easily, and now my default thought for "villain joins the heroes" is "Heel–Face Turn". Maybe we need something, like Dont Judge A Trope By Its Title to say that the title is not the be-all, end-all description of the trope.
And far more importantly, the title is awesome. That makes up for any ambiguity.
HeartBurn Kid: As somebody on the outside looking in, let me just say that I feel that Large Blunt Object is in the right here. Not because of "vote counts" or anything like that — TV Tropes, much like The Other Wiki, is not a democracy — but because he is the creator of the page. He wrote the page, he named it More Dakka, so unless there's a clear consensus against More Dakka, it stays, and there obviously isn't a consensus one way or the other. If you guys can find a title that makes everybody happy, go for it; otherwise, More Dakka stays by default.
As for the "launching a trope before it's ready" nonsense, it's just that: nonsense. YKTTW is an optional step in the first place. It's to get other people's viewpoints to fill out and improve a prospective article. You can skip it if you've got Three Examples And A Title, and you can launch anytime after you have Three Examples And A Title. If you think that YKTTW is a must, and somehow every article is beholden to every single troper, you're wrong. We don't write by committee around here.
That said, everybody in this discussion, including LBO, needs to learn to stop being so abrasive about everything and stop taking everything so personally. For some of you, this isn't the first time you've had a massive argument over something trivial (I'm not going to name names; I'm sure you all know who you are). Honestly, it's just a wiki, you really should relax. Learn to play nicely with others or leave us alone in our sandbox.
Looney Toons: I discovered More Dakka just this morning, thanks to its Made Of Win nomination. As far as I was concerned, that was a solid, mature page that for all I knew had been in place for the last six months (I tend to stay more or less within the approximately 400 pages in my watch list most of the time). And as Rogue notes, the page is so thoroughly self-explanatory that my complete lack of familiarity with WH40K did not impede my understanding and enjoyment at all. This is a good page, it has a great name, a better illo, it's actually written in proper English, it has a good beat and I can dance to it. I give it two thumbs up.
And I second Heartburn Kid on YKTTW. It's not a required part of the process. I don't read it. Ever. I don't use it. If I have a trope idea, I write it up, link it in, and set it loose. Just like I did for the 500 or so other tropes I wrote up before it. (500? Mm. I'd better go back later and count, just to be sure. Later: 530.) I don't give a crap about votes. If YKTTW was what it was when it began, a discussion spot to find out if anyone else had examples for a cool idea, I'd use it, but the automated monster it's become is completely useless to me — and since I have the right to ignore it, I do.
The upshot of all this is, you're all arguing about nothing. It's nothing more than a pissing contest and Wiki Wankery, and it makes everyone involved look like a bunch of 13-year-old geeks argung whether Kirk or Picard is better. I can't make you stop it, but hopefully if you see how foolish you look, you'll do it on your own.
Fast Eddie: The discussion got a little heated for a while, but on balance it seems like a healthy thing. If YKTTW turns into a committee, it will have committee-like output. The intent of YKTTW is to collaborate in defining a trope.
Tanto: Concur with HBK and LT... YKTTW has become a twisted mutation of its former self, and I don't much see the value of going there if I know we don't have it already...
Cosmetor: The value is that it keeps tropes like this from being hopelessly obscure and this site from being an incomprehensible mess. But because Large Blunt Object thought that WAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHH was more important than clarity, this trope is irrevocably ruined.
onyhow: I'm an outsider of this discussion, but when I read the whole thing, Cosmetor, you're a jerk. The point of this wiki is not just all about clarity, but also having some fun. You think that I think all the topic page is suppose to be simple? Götterdämmerung is friggin' hard to remember, but I learn to accept it. All the crazy trope names that contains references to other media? No problem. Takes time to adjust, but I find many to be funny. If you want clarity, or all the democracy stuff, go to Wikipedia. This is NOT Wikipedia. And the article itself is throughly written, what's the complain?
Cosmetor: No, a jerk would decide to have fun at everyone else's expense, and at the site's expense. And would also post massive, barely-coherent strings of flames when I tried to argue with him.
Cassius335: There, at least, he has a point. LBO overrreacted utterly.
Large Blunt Object: Robert I treated unfairly, for which I apologise, but I'm absolutely sick of Cosmetor's bullshit.
HeartBurn Kid: "But because Large Blunt Object thought that WAAAAAUUUUUUUUGGGGGGHHHHHH was more important than clarity, this trope is irrevocably ruined." I just wanted to point out that now, after your posting this little line, I no longer blame Large Blunt Object for his part in this Flame War. Because now, I really, really want to flame you into next week.
Cosmetor: Ignoring your foaming-at-the-mouth rampage, I have a solution to the issue. Someone said that More Dakka wasn't just a description of the trope, but the mentality behind it. Therefore, I suggest splitting the trope, with More Dakka being specifically for using gratuitous amounts of firepower to substitute for accuracy, with another trope for the more general idea of directing a large number of bullets. That way, you orkboyz can keep your funny in-joke, and everyone else can have a clearer name.
Large Blunt Object: No, because there isn't an "issue" and it doesn't need a "solution". There's just you and your bullshit complaining long after a sensible person would have given up. Do we have one about the "mentality" behind a Macross Missile Massacre? No. It would be impossible to gather any decent examples, so all you really want to do is split hairs and wipe the page out.
This page is one about the use of rapid-firing guns. The response to it has otherwise been incredibly positive, everyone else seems to think it should stay as-is, and we do not need you making redundant pages as a ridiculous face-saving exercise. Just give it up.
Box Alive: "Cosmetor: Therefore, I suggest splitting the trope, with More Dakka being specifically for using gratuitous amounts of firepower to substitute for accuracy, with another trope for the more general idea of directing a large number of bullets."
I admire your openness to compromise, but isn't that sort of splitting hairs? And if this is about a trope's name, how does that resolve the issue of "More Dakka" being too obscure?
Narvi: I don't like the name, but that's just because the word Dakka sounds horrible to my ears. Sounds like that sound Pacman keeps making, except with a D. Still, it'd take too much effort to change now, so no point whining about it. There isn't even any need for subtropes, since that can be lumped in.
HeartBurn Kid: I have to agree with everyone else that splitting the page would be a bad idea. This is a rather basic concept, and there's really no way to split it without making two redundant pages (and the last thing this wiki needs is more redundant pages).
I'm making Bullet Barrage into a redirect to More Dakka right now. That seems to be the closest thing to a compromise we're going to get out of this mess, and there's plenty of precedent for it. //Never mind, somebody else already did.
Cosmetor: That isn't a solution. Several users don't like the title, and a redirect would be pointless since it would still be the title of the page. People would try to change it whenever someone used Bullet Barrage, and other people would have to put up with annoying redirects every time they accessed this page.
Colin: First of all, Cosmetor, if someone links to a page using a redirect, then no one would try to change the link, because that would invalidate the very point of redirects in the first place. Also, "annoying redirects"? How are redirects annoying? Unless your computer has some technical issue that prevents them from working properly, all that happens if you click on a link thats a redirect is that you get taken to the other page and there's a line of text saying that the link was a redirect.
Please, Cosmetor, admit that you lost. Continuing to argue like this will only serve to alienate you, causing the rest of the hive mind to ignore what you say.
Cosmetor: Which is annoying because it changes the URL. And because some people actually dislike the title. And you're in no position to talk about alienating anyone, seeing as you're arguing in favor of an in-joke and against comprehensibility.
Rogue 7: Cosmetor: "some people" at this point means just you. Why is this such a big deal? Like I said above, can you really say you didn't understand the concept after seeing the picture and reading the quote? In-jokes (and in this case it's a popular and hardly obscure at all in-joke) are what we do here. Because they're funny. If you can't accept that, leave.
Looney Toons: Cosmetor, I'm concurring with the growing consensus. You're a jerk. You're not only a jerk, you're a jerk with an image of the Wiki that doesn't match what the other contributors — or its founders, for gods' sake — have, and you're throwing a spoiled-five-year-old-girl-in-pigtails-laying-on-the-floor-screaming-and-kicking hissy fit tantrum over it. If you want this kind of pennyante egotripping "control" over an entry, go over to Wikipedia and beg for a scrap from their table. You're not going to get it here. You've lost. Suck it up and take it like an adult instead of a spoiled brat.
Caphi: Everything's already been said at some point, so I'm just going to say this. I hate reference titles. All those tropes that start with The Name? Yeah, I despise them. However, I support More Dakka. a) It's an onomotopeia that describes the concept. b) It's not a pure reference, like The Wesley, it's a reference to an artificial pop culture that, again, describes the phenomenon pretty well independently of that pop culture's context. The Wesley, from the outside, could mean anyone. c) It is a fairly popular and well-known reference, in the end. d) As has been mentioned, names like this will bring in people like me to see what the Dakka noise is all about.
I'm going to go ahead and add my "Do shut up" to the collection, kthx.
Ununnilium: My god. Yes, the wiki doesn't need this kind of flame war. Large Blunt Object definitely crossed the Internet Drama line, but Cosmetor crossed it while accelerating at 97.5%c, eventually collapsing into a Drama Event Horizon from which no sense can escape. There's no need to have six or seven screens of whining about the name of a single trope.
Cosmetor: That's rather odd to say, considering you've all degenerated into verbally abusing me and mocking me for caring at all while simultaneously caring more than me and putting even more effort into keeping the title ruined than I'm putting into fixing it. If it's so trivial, leave it to the people who care. And have reasons behind their thoughts. Calling me a jerk/spoiled brat/troll/whatever else you're acting like isn't going to get me any less riled up.
Attilargh: I like ruins.
Cosmetor: Okay, you know what? I'm tired of this. The title really isn't that bad. It's actually kind of growing on me. What is that bad is your attitude. Mocking me for taking things too seriously while spewing hatred from every orfice, and demonize me for "starting" argument which only happened because you were participating in it.
And, as a special message to Large Blunt Object, let me just remind you what happened here. First, you started a discussion about the trope on YKTTW. Then you pretty much ignored the people who disagreed with you and abruptly stopped a discussion that was still going on. Then you acted like "everyone" agreed with you, when your favorite wasn't even in the majority (by my count, there were 6 people supporting More Dakka and 7 people supporting other titles). Then, when I come in here to complain, you go absolutely crazy, and start bringing up other discussions that have nothing to do with this while flaming me more times than I care to count. For the most part, I've done little more than explain my viewpoint, while you have not stated any reasoning behind yours except by screaming WAAAUUUUUGGGGH. None of this would have happened if you had 1: let the discussion run its course, or 2: made the slightest attempt to be polite.
Then there are the people who mock and belittle me for caring about this at all, while simultaneously insisting on meddling in affairs they claim aren't worth caring about. Here's a message for them: if you don't care, don't interfere.
That's all. We all agree on More Dakka. It's fine if other people think it's understandable. End of discussion.
Looney Toons: <Silently salutes as the Misunderstood Hero rides off into the sunset to the jeering of the crowd, knowing in his heart of hearts that someday They Will Get Theirs and he will be Proven Right. Then he turns around and watches Cosmetor slink away, too.>
Evil_Tim: So, who's for linking this discussion under Designated Hero?
Colin: NO! You saw peoples reaction to a title, image their reaction to being accused of something.
HeartBurn Kid: So linking this to Small Name, Big Ego is pretty much right out too...
Heliomance: Regretfully, I think that might be the case. This is unfortunate, as both suggestions are Made Of Win and made me laugh aloud.
1) It threadmoded the Metal Storm comment. If you want to put more information into a bullet, edit it in to that bullet rather than adding another little paragraph. Usually, someone else will do it for you, but in this case...
2) It started with "It should be mentioned, however..." Meaningless padding words that invite natter and sound like the preface to a Justifying Edit even though this once they weren't. If you have something to say, say it straight away, editing the previous information if it makes it work better. Again, if someone thinks what you've put in is relevant and useful, they'll probably cut the useless words and save the good stuff. However, the reason I pulled it rather than doing that was...
3) I didn't really think it added in any way. This is of course the most subjective part, but I don't think telling us how Metal Storm is Awesome, but Impractical will make the article any better - the point is that they can get a rate of fire of a million rounds a minute, not that it's an effective weapon or even good at sustained fire.
: That had better not be a link to 4chan on the page quote. That is a
Also, pulled the Heavy quote from the second time - it's already in the page, and this page really doesn't need another page quote unless it's fantastic.
Not a subversion, and basically untrue. It's called "anti-aircraft artillery". Everyone uses it.
. Artillery wasted hundreds of square kilometres of France, blasted towns flat and slaughtered troops caught in the open. It just wasn't effective
against dug-in infantry. Again,
Haesslich: Took out the following bit, since the entry for Fallout already mentioned the minigun as an available weapon with More Dakka.
: Stupid question time, maybe, but why remove the "enough baka" comment? I mean, if this was
, yeah I could see nuking it... but then again
. It seemed like a harmless little joke that works fine in a
sfnhltb: Would the scene from "Split Second" qualify here - one of the funniest scenes in any movie "We need bigger f***ing guns!"
: Why does the "no such thing as nuff dakka" line keep getting deleted? There's nothing wrong with a nod towards the source of the trope name that doesn't make the entry unreadable. Put it back, pending a reason other than "I don't like it" for its removal.
◊ for the tropers' approval as possible new trope cover art.
