[002]
Kalaong
Current Version
Changed line(s) 2 from:
n
** Every time Zuko or Iroh or any of the canon Fire Nation \
to:
** Every time Zuko or Iroh or any of the canon Fire Nation \\\"good guys\\\" are asked to answer for a hundred years of war, they change the subject to how they know that they\\\'re going to eventually lose, and the other nations will take their revenge, and how [[ItsAllAboutMe most of Fire Nation is going to die at their hands.]] Zuko doesn\\\'t seem to be heading for his canon realization that [[http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/The_Day_of_Black_Sun,_Part_2:_The_Eclipse \\\"The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation! They don’t see our greatness - they hate us! And we deserve it.\\\"]] To reference [[BabylonFive a far better work]], [[http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/The_Very_Long_Night_of_Londo_Mollari \\\"[The Fire Nation\\\'s] not sorry for what [they] did! [They]\\\'re just sorry that [they] got caught!\\\"]]
** This is probably integral to [[spoiler:[[OurDragonsAreDifferent dragons]] and [[HalfHumanHybrid dragon hybrids]]]] - they are [[BlueAndOrangeMorality very, VERY focused on what\\\'s in immediate proximity to them]] with the corollary that they don\\\'t much care for anything happening outside their territory. Those that didn\\\'t kill the Air Nomads themselves couldn\\\'t make themselves care about it. Also an Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe problem: the Water Tribes let the Fire Nation get at the temples near the poles, and according to a shaman who was alive at the time, general public opinion in the Earth Kingdom at the time of the genocide was that the Air Nomads deserved it for something that happened centuries ago (it was all about the Earth Kingdom and their ancestors). Racism, xenophobia and only caring about our immediate group are human traits, sadly.
** Also justified: Zuko and Iroh are from a revenge-based culture, and the Earth Kingdom has a focus on deals and repayment in kind (the Air Nomads didn\\\'t help them, they didn\\\'t help the Air Nomads). In sin-and-repentance-based moral systems, crimes are made up for by apologies and atonement: the right thing for the Fire Nation to do would be to apologize and make reparations. In a revenge-based moral system, where \\\'a man does not rest under the same sky as his father\\\'s murderer, or a woman her mother\\\'s,\\\' apologies can actually be regarded as morally reprehensible. Shameless begging for mercy by someone who doesn\\\'t deserve it, or trying to get out of paying for a crime that should be paid for in blood, not empty words.
*** It\\\'s CultureClash between, \\\"You did something bad, so if you don\\\'t apologize, you will deserve it when I try to kill you! Apology now!\\\" versus, \\\"We did something bad, so of course you\\\'re going to try to kill us: could you please spare the children?\\\" Resulting in, \\\"They won\\\'t apologize, so they aren\\\'t willing to admit they did something bad: they are evil and shall die!\\\" and, \\\"They\\\'re refusing to spare the children?! OhCrap!\\\" The Water Tribes want to hear an apology and the Fire Nation wants to hear how bad the well-deserved beatdown is going to be: [[UnreliableNarrator neither side is actually hearing what the other is saying]], resulting in Katara\\\'s belief that they\\\'re evil being confirmed, as well as Zuko and Iroh\\\'s own incorrect beliefs about the Avatar and what\\\'d going to happen when they lose.
*** So for Katara, it wasn\\\'t just about her mother and so on: all three of these groups have different views of how \\\'justice\\\' is supposed to work that seemed like selfishness to the others.
*** It\\\'s still indicative of a \\\'\\\'serious\\\'\\\' problem with Fire Nation culture; admitting guilt for a crime out of an understanding of ethics is part of the thought process of not wanting to repeat the \\\'\\\'crime\\\'\\\', while submitting out of fear of punishment just means you want to avoid that punishment; \\\'\\\'[[NotCheatingUnlessYouGetCaught you\\\'d still commit the crime if you could avoid punishment.]]\\\'\\\' If the Fire Nation won\\\'t admit guilt, it\\\'s a moral imperative that they be wiped out before they try to conquer the world again, this time trying a hell of a lot harder to win. Canonically, Zuko realizes this in his Black Sun speech - \\\"We have created an era of fear in the world. And if we don’t want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.\\\" In Embers, he\\\'s doing continuous mental gymnastics to divert himself from that realization - he \\\'\\\'admits\\\'\\\' that he has serious psychological problems communicating with people, and may be \\\'\\\'completely incapable\\\'\\\' of comprehending an ethics-based morality as opposed to a punishment-based one.
**** Erm, except that Zuko and Iroh ARE admitting that the Fire Nation is wrong by their very willingness to allow everyone else to take their revenge.
**** This is where it turned into ConversationOnTheMainPage, but they are \\\'\\\'not.\\\'\\\' Zuko \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'NEVER\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' says that the war is \\\"morally wrong\\\", and Iroh dances around the subject(making the whole Ba Sing Se refugee thing kinda karmic - he spent six hundred days trying to tear down the wall and then tried to hide behind it. Chutzpah doesn\\\'t begin to cover it), saying that he believes that \\\"much of what the Fire Nation has done this past century is evil. And I believe the war should end.\\\" But then he makes noises about how the other nations should \\\"understand\\\" the Fire Nation better, and avoids the point that \\\'\\\'he\\\'\\\' should try to understand the others better: his and Zuko\\\'s argument is that the Fire Nation will lose the war they started, the other nations will retaliate with all their strength, and that the Fire Nation probably won\\\'t survive it. Their argument isn\\\'t that the war is a crime, they\\\'re saying the war won\\\'t produce the results they desired. They see the war as \\\'\\\'unsuccessful\\\'\\\', not \\\'\\\'immoral\\\'\\\'. The only way I can interpret that is as if a mugger gets his ass kicked attempting to steal someone\\\'s money saying that they should have used a bigger knife. In any world that is even the \\\'\\\'slightest bit\\\'\\\' DarkerAndEdgier than A:TLA that would result in anyone present with the capability breaking the bastard\\\'s kneecaps. If not killing him outright. Canon, this is the point where even \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'[[TheMessiah AANG]]\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' got his [[DePower Energybending]] on.
** This is probably integral to [[spoiler:[[OurDragonsAreDifferent dragons]] and [[HalfHumanHybrid dragon hybrids]]]] - they are [[BlueAndOrangeMorality very, VERY focused on what\\\'s in immediate proximity to them]] with the corollary that they don\\\'t much care for anything happening outside their territory. Those that didn\\\'t kill the Air Nomads themselves couldn\\\'t make themselves care about it. Also an Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe problem: the Water Tribes let the Fire Nation get at the temples near the poles, and according to a shaman who was alive at the time, general public opinion in the Earth Kingdom at the time of the genocide was that the Air Nomads deserved it for something that happened centuries ago (it was all about the Earth Kingdom and their ancestors). Racism, xenophobia and only caring about our immediate group are human traits, sadly.
** Also justified: Zuko and Iroh are from a revenge-based culture, and the Earth Kingdom has a focus on deals and repayment in kind (the Air Nomads didn\\\'t help them, they didn\\\'t help the Air Nomads). In sin-and-repentance-based moral systems, crimes are made up for by apologies and atonement: the right thing for the Fire Nation to do would be to apologize and make reparations. In a revenge-based moral system, where \\\'a man does not rest under the same sky as his father\\\'s murderer, or a woman her mother\\\'s,\\\' apologies can actually be regarded as morally reprehensible. Shameless begging for mercy by someone who doesn\\\'t deserve it, or trying to get out of paying for a crime that should be paid for in blood, not empty words.
*** It\\\'s CultureClash between, \\\"You did something bad, so if you don\\\'t apologize, you will deserve it when I try to kill you! Apology now!\\\" versus, \\\"We did something bad, so of course you\\\'re going to try to kill us: could you please spare the children?\\\" Resulting in, \\\"They won\\\'t apologize, so they aren\\\'t willing to admit they did something bad: they are evil and shall die!\\\" and, \\\"They\\\'re refusing to spare the children?! OhCrap!\\\" The Water Tribes want to hear an apology and the Fire Nation wants to hear how bad the well-deserved beatdown is going to be: [[UnreliableNarrator neither side is actually hearing what the other is saying]], resulting in Katara\\\'s belief that they\\\'re evil being confirmed, as well as Zuko and Iroh\\\'s own incorrect beliefs about the Avatar and what\\\'d going to happen when they lose.
*** So for Katara, it wasn\\\'t just about her mother and so on: all three of these groups have different views of how \\\'justice\\\' is supposed to work that seemed like selfishness to the others.
*** It\\\'s still indicative of a \\\'\\\'serious\\\'\\\' problem with Fire Nation culture; admitting guilt for a crime out of an understanding of ethics is part of the thought process of not wanting to repeat the \\\'\\\'crime\\\'\\\', while submitting out of fear of punishment just means you want to avoid that punishment; \\\'\\\'[[NotCheatingUnlessYouGetCaught you\\\'d still commit the crime if you could avoid punishment.]]\\\'\\\' If the Fire Nation won\\\'t admit guilt, it\\\'s a moral imperative that they be wiped out before they try to conquer the world again, this time trying a hell of a lot harder to win. Canonically, Zuko realizes this in his Black Sun speech - \\\"We have created an era of fear in the world. And if we don’t want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.\\\" In Embers, he\\\'s doing continuous mental gymnastics to divert himself from that realization - he \\\'\\\'admits\\\'\\\' that he has serious psychological problems communicating with people, and may be \\\'\\\'completely incapable\\\'\\\' of comprehending an ethics-based morality as opposed to a punishment-based one.
**** Erm, except that Zuko and Iroh ARE admitting that the Fire Nation is wrong by their very willingness to allow everyone else to take their revenge.
**** This is where it turned into ConversationOnTheMainPage, but they are \\\'\\\'not.\\\'\\\' Zuko \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'NEVER\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' says that the war is \\\"morally wrong\\\", and Iroh dances around the subject(making the whole Ba Sing Se refugee thing kinda karmic - he spent six hundred days trying to tear down the wall and then tried to hide behind it. Chutzpah doesn\\\'t begin to cover it), saying that he believes that \\\"much of what the Fire Nation has done this past century is evil. And I believe the war should end.\\\" But then he makes noises about how the other nations should \\\"understand\\\" the Fire Nation better, and avoids the point that \\\'\\\'he\\\'\\\' should try to understand the others better: his and Zuko\\\'s argument is that the Fire Nation will lose the war they started, the other nations will retaliate with all their strength, and that the Fire Nation probably won\\\'t survive it. Their argument isn\\\'t that the war is a crime, they\\\'re saying the war won\\\'t produce the results they desired. They see the war as \\\'\\\'unsuccessful\\\'\\\', not \\\'\\\'immoral\\\'\\\'. The only way I can interpret that is as if a mugger gets his ass kicked attempting to steal someone\\\'s money saying that they should have used a bigger knife. In any world that is even the \\\'\\\'slightest bit\\\'\\\' DarkerAndEdgier than A:TLA that would result in anyone present with the capability breaking the bastard\\\'s kneecaps. If not killing him outright. Canon, this is the point where even \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'[[TheMessiah AANG]]\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' got his [[DePower Energybending]] on.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
** Every time Zuko or Iroh or any of the canon Fire Nation \
to:
* ValuesDissonance:
** Every time Zuko or Iroh or any of the canon Fire Nation \\\"good guys\\\" are asked to answer for a hundred years of war, they change the subject to how they know that they\\\'re going to eventually lose, and the other nations will take their revenge, and how [[ItsAllAboutMe most of Fire Nation is going to die at their hands.]] Zuko doesn\\\'t seem to be heading for his canon realization that [[http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/The_Day_of_Black_Sun,_Part_2:_The_Eclipse \\\"The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation! They don’t see our greatness - they hate us! And we deserve it.\\\"]] To reference [[BabylonFive a far better work]], [[http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/The_Very_Long_Night_of_Londo_Mollari \\\"[The Fire Nation\\\'s] not sorry for what [they] did! [They]\\\'re just sorry that [they] got caught!\\\"]]
** This is probably integral to [[spoiler:[[OurDragonsAreDifferent dragons]] and [[HalfHumanHybrid dragon hybrids]]]] - they are [[BlueAndOrangeMorality very, VERY focused on what\\\'s in immediate proximity to them]] with the corollary that they don\\\'t much care for anything happening outside their territory. Those that didn\\\'t kill the Air Nomads themselves couldn\\\'t make themselves care about it. Also an Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe problem: the Water Tribes let the Fire Nation get at the temples near the poles, and according to a shaman who was alive at the time, general public opinion in the Earth Kingdom at the time of the genocide was that the Air Nomads deserved it for something that happened centuries ago (it was all about the Earth Kingdom and their ancestors). Racism, xenophobia and only caring about our immediate group are human traits, sadly.
** Also justified: Zuko and Iroh are from a revenge-based culture, and the Earth Kingdom has a focus on deals and repayment in kind (the Air Nomads didn\\\'t help them, they didn\\\'t help the Air Nomads). In sin-and-repentance-based moral systems, crimes are made up for by apologies and atonement: the right thing for the Fire Nation to do would be to apologize and make reparations. In a revenge-based moral system, where \\\'a man does not rest under the same sky as his father\\\'s murderer, or a woman her mother\\\'s,\\\' apologies can actually be regarded as morally reprehensible. Shameless begging for mercy by someone who doesn\\\'t deserve it, or trying to get out of paying for a crime that should be paid for in blood, not empty words.
*** It\\\'s CultureClash between, \\\"You did something bad, so if you don\\\'t apologize, you will deserve it when I try to kill you! Apology now!\\\" versus, \\\"We did something bad, so of course you\\\'re going to try to kill us: could you please spare the children?\\\" Resulting in, \\\"They won\\\'t apologize, so they aren\\\'t willing to admit they did something bad: they are evil and shall die!\\\" and, \\\"They\\\'re refusing to spare the children?! OhCrap!\\\" The Water Tribes want to hear an apology and the Fire Nation wants to hear how bad the well-deserved beatdown is going to be: [[UnreliableNarrator neither side is actually hearing what the other is saying]], resulting in Katara\\\'s belief that they\\\'re evil being confirmed, as well as Zuko and Iroh\\\'s own incorrect beliefs about the Avatar and what\\\'d going to happen when they lose.
*** So for Katara, it wasn\\\'t just about her mother and so on: all three of these groups have different views of how \\\'justice\\\' is supposed to work that seemed like selfishness to the others.
*** It\\\'s still indicative of a \\\'\\\'serious\\\'\\\' problem with Fire Nation culture; admitting guilt for a crime out of an understanding of ethics is part of the thought process of not wanting to repeat the \\\'\\\'crime\\\'\\\', while submitting out of fear of punishment just means you want to avoid that punishment; \\\'\\\'[[NotCheatingUnlessYouGetCaught you\\\'d still commit the crime if you could avoid punishment.]]\\\'\\\' If the Fire Nation won\\\'t admit guilt, it\\\'s a moral imperative that they be wiped out before they try to conquer the world again, this time trying a hell of a lot harder to win. Canonically, Zuko realizes this in his Black Sun speech - \\\"We have created an era of fear in the world. And if we don’t want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.\\\" In Embers, he\\\'s doing continuous mental gymnastics to divert himself from that realization - he \\\'\\\'admits\\\'\\\' that he has serious psychological problems communicating with people, and may be \\\'\\\'completely incapable\\\'\\\' of comprehending an ethics-based morality as opposed to a punishment-based one.
**** Erm, except that Zuko and Iroh ARE admitting that the Fire Nation is wrong by their very willingness to allow everyone else to take their revenge.
**** This is where it turned into ConversationOnTheMainPage, but they are \\\'\\\'not.\\\'\\\' Zuko \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'NEVER\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' says that the war is \\\"morally wrong\\\", and Iroh dances around the subject(making the whole Ba Sing Se refugee thing kinda karmic - he spent six hundred days trying to tear down the wall and then tried to hide behind it. Chutzpah doesn\\\'t begin to cover it), saying that he believes that \\\"much of what the Fire Nation has done this past century is evil. And I believe the war should end.\\\" But then he makes noises about how the other nations should \\\"understand\\\" the Fire Nation better, and avoids the point that \\\'\\\'he\\\'\\\' should try to understand the others better: his and Zuko\\\'s argument is that the Fire Nation will lose the war they started, the other nations will retaliate with all their strength, and that the Fire Nation probably won\\\'t survive it. Their argument isn\\\'t that the war is a crime, they\\\'re saying the war won\\\'t produce the results they desired. They see the war as \\\'\\\'unsuccessful\\\'\\\', not \\\'\\\'immoral\\\'\\\'. The only way I can interpret that is as if a mugger gets his ass kicked attempting to steal someone\\\'s money saying that they should have used a bigger knife. In any world that is even the \\\'\\\'slightest bit\\\'\\\' DarkerAndEdgier than A:TLA that would result in anyone present with the capability breaking the bastard\\\'s kneecaps. If not killing him outright. Canon, this is the point where even \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'[[TheMessiah AANG]]\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' got his [[DePower Energybending]] on.
** Every time Zuko or Iroh or any of the canon Fire Nation \\\"good guys\\\" are asked to answer for a hundred years of war, they change the subject to how they know that they\\\'re going to eventually lose, and the other nations will take their revenge, and how [[ItsAllAboutMe most of Fire Nation is going to die at their hands.]] Zuko doesn\\\'t seem to be heading for his canon realization that [[http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/The_Day_of_Black_Sun,_Part_2:_The_Eclipse \\\"The people of the world are terrified by the Fire Nation! They don’t see our greatness - they hate us! And we deserve it.\\\"]] To reference [[BabylonFive a far better work]], [[http://babylon5.wikia.com/wiki/The_Very_Long_Night_of_Londo_Mollari \\\"[The Fire Nation\\\'s] not sorry for what [they] did! [They]\\\'re just sorry that [they] got caught!\\\"]]
** This is probably integral to [[spoiler:[[OurDragonsAreDifferent dragons]] and [[HalfHumanHybrid dragon hybrids]]]] - they are [[BlueAndOrangeMorality very, VERY focused on what\\\'s in immediate proximity to them]] with the corollary that they don\\\'t much care for anything happening outside their territory. Those that didn\\\'t kill the Air Nomads themselves couldn\\\'t make themselves care about it. Also an Earth Kingdom and Water Tribe problem: the Water Tribes let the Fire Nation get at the temples near the poles, and according to a shaman who was alive at the time, general public opinion in the Earth Kingdom at the time of the genocide was that the Air Nomads deserved it for something that happened centuries ago (it was all about the Earth Kingdom and their ancestors). Racism, xenophobia and only caring about our immediate group are human traits, sadly.
** Also justified: Zuko and Iroh are from a revenge-based culture, and the Earth Kingdom has a focus on deals and repayment in kind (the Air Nomads didn\\\'t help them, they didn\\\'t help the Air Nomads). In sin-and-repentance-based moral systems, crimes are made up for by apologies and atonement: the right thing for the Fire Nation to do would be to apologize and make reparations. In a revenge-based moral system, where \\\'a man does not rest under the same sky as his father\\\'s murderer, or a woman her mother\\\'s,\\\' apologies can actually be regarded as morally reprehensible. Shameless begging for mercy by someone who doesn\\\'t deserve it, or trying to get out of paying for a crime that should be paid for in blood, not empty words.
*** It\\\'s CultureClash between, \\\"You did something bad, so if you don\\\'t apologize, you will deserve it when I try to kill you! Apology now!\\\" versus, \\\"We did something bad, so of course you\\\'re going to try to kill us: could you please spare the children?\\\" Resulting in, \\\"They won\\\'t apologize, so they aren\\\'t willing to admit they did something bad: they are evil and shall die!\\\" and, \\\"They\\\'re refusing to spare the children?! OhCrap!\\\" The Water Tribes want to hear an apology and the Fire Nation wants to hear how bad the well-deserved beatdown is going to be: [[UnreliableNarrator neither side is actually hearing what the other is saying]], resulting in Katara\\\'s belief that they\\\'re evil being confirmed, as well as Zuko and Iroh\\\'s own incorrect beliefs about the Avatar and what\\\'d going to happen when they lose.
*** So for Katara, it wasn\\\'t just about her mother and so on: all three of these groups have different views of how \\\'justice\\\' is supposed to work that seemed like selfishness to the others.
*** It\\\'s still indicative of a \\\'\\\'serious\\\'\\\' problem with Fire Nation culture; admitting guilt for a crime out of an understanding of ethics is part of the thought process of not wanting to repeat the \\\'\\\'crime\\\'\\\', while submitting out of fear of punishment just means you want to avoid that punishment; \\\'\\\'[[NotCheatingUnlessYouGetCaught you\\\'d still commit the crime if you could avoid punishment.]]\\\'\\\' If the Fire Nation won\\\'t admit guilt, it\\\'s a moral imperative that they be wiped out before they try to conquer the world again, this time trying a hell of a lot harder to win. Canonically, Zuko realizes this in his Black Sun speech - \\\"We have created an era of fear in the world. And if we don’t want the world to destroy itself, we need to replace it with an era of peace and kindness.\\\" In Embers, he\\\'s doing continuous mental gymnastics to divert himself from that realization - he \\\'\\\'admits\\\'\\\' that he has serious psychological problems communicating with people, and may be \\\'\\\'completely incapable\\\'\\\' of comprehending an ethics-based morality as opposed to a punishment-based one.
**** Erm, except that Zuko and Iroh ARE admitting that the Fire Nation is wrong by their very willingness to allow everyone else to take their revenge.
**** This is where it turned into ConversationOnTheMainPage, but they are \\\'\\\'not.\\\'\\\' Zuko \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'NEVER\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' says that the war is \\\"morally wrong\\\", and Iroh dances around the subject(making the whole Ba Sing Se refugee thing kinda karmic - he spent six hundred days trying to tear down the wall and then tried to hide behind it. Chutzpah doesn\\\'t begin to cover it), saying that he believes that \\\"much of what the Fire Nation has done this past century is evil. And I believe the war should end.\\\" But then he makes noises about how the other nations should \\\"understand\\\" the Fire Nation better, and avoids the point that \\\'\\\'he\\\'\\\' should try to understand the others better: his and Zuko\\\'s argument is that the Fire Nation will lose the war they started, the other nations will retaliate with all their strength, and that the Fire Nation probably won\\\'t survive it. Their argument isn\\\'t that the war is a crime, they\\\'re saying the war won\\\'t produce the results they desired. They see the war as \\\'\\\'unsuccessful\\\'\\\', not \\\'\\\'immoral\\\'\\\'. The only way I can interpret that is as if a mugger gets his ass kicked attempting to steal someone\\\'s money saying that they should have used a bigger knife. In any world that is even the \\\'\\\'slightest bit\\\'\\\' DarkerAndEdgier than A:TLA that would result in anyone present with the capability breaking the bastard\\\'s kneecaps. If not killing him outright. Canon, this is the point where even \\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'[[TheMessiah AANG]]\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\'\\\' got his [[DePower Energybending]] on.
