Discussion History Main / StuffyOldSongsAboutTheButtocks

\\\"Nothing but empty words.\\\" Many of their more traditional priests (\\\'\\\'hataali\\\'\\\') have the same opinion of the Native American Church.

But please, discuss if you will the theology of the masked dancers in the Yei Bichaai, or the possible Puebloan origins of the Four Male Holy People of the Fourth World. You get self-righteous to me about indigenous religions? Okay, let\\\'s hear you discuss the Snake Clan\\\'s role in Hopi opposition to snowmaking on the San Francisco Peaks.

See, I actually \\\'\\\'know\\\'\\\' a thing or two about indigenous religions; you don\\\'t appear to know anything about \\\'\\\'the largest religion on the planet\\\'\\\'. So quit your posturing.

My objection to your grotesque, laughable, \\\'\\\'provincial\\\'\\\' attempt to draw a parallel between Christianity and a Cargo Cult is twofold. First is RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment—it\\\'s insulting to a third of the human race, \\\'\\\'without\\\'\\\' being fucking funny enough to warrant it. Apart from messianism—which, again, is not actually a major factor in Cargo Cults, claiming a visionary founder isn\\\'t the same thing—there is very little in common between Christianity and that kind of religion. Christianity from the very beginning defined itself in \\\'\\\'opposition\\\'\\\' to the religion and customs not only of the Romans—which is who they\\\'d have been copying if they\\\'d been a Cargo Cult—but also of the Jews. Christianity, like Buddhism, is one of a very few truly transcendent religions; they\\\'re always going to be more different from than similar to any other religion you compare them to, even each other. Just for example, though both Christianity and Buddhism are transcendent religions that promise salvation from existential suffering, messianism does not make up a major component of Buddhist thought. The Maitreya is a relatively minor figure in their cosmology. And identifying \\\'\\\'him\\\'\\\' with the Dharmakaya isn\\\'t in any way significant, certainly not in the way Jesus\\\' divinity is in Christianity, because the whole \\\'\\\'point\\\'\\\' of Buddhism is that \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' is identical with the Dharmakaya. It\\\'s called advaita.

More importantly, though, your version wasn\\\'t accurate. Jesus is not held to be a prophet by Christians, at least Christians who in any way, shape or form accept the ecumenical councils. They consider him to be \\\'\\\'God\\\'\\\'. They don\\\'t consider heaven a reward; I got distracted by your \\\'\\\'risible\\\'\\\' assertion that Sola Gratia is \\\"rather popular\\\"—it\\\'s held by a sixth of all Christians, \\\'\\\'tops\\\'\\\'—but Sola Gratia itself is the precise \\\'\\\'opposite\\\'\\\' of heaven being a reward. All Christians who are in any way \\\"orthodox\\\" deny, \\\'\\\'explicitly,\\\'\\\' Salvation by Works. The Calvinists—with their Sola Gratia—deny that the human will has any role at all in salvation; they\\\'re monothelite. The Orthodox and Catholics say that the human\\\'s role is to \\\'\\\'cooperate\\\'\\\' with grace; Lutherans come closest to teaching that heaven is a reward, with their Sola Fide, but it\\\'s not even a fair characterization of them. All of them agree that nobody \\\'\\\'earns\\\'\\\' salvation; it\\\'s a \\\'\\\'gift\\\'\\\'. Pretty much from the Council of Jerusalem, Christians have self-defined \\\'\\\'in opposition to\\\'\\\' the Jewish concept of \\\"earning a portion in the World to Come\\\". And if you can find me the council, encyclical, or other document of any major Christian body that declared Pascal\\\'s Wager anything other than a rhetorical device, I\\\'d dearly love to see it.

Frankly, the current form of the definition is just as bad as the other one, only instead of being shallowly anti-Christian, it\\\'s shallowly racist. Because nobody, not even Cargo Cultists, \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' use their religion as an explanation of things they don\\\'t understand. The Thunder People in Navajo mythology are not some dim anthropomorphism to make thunder \\\"understandable\\\"; they are just the Holy People you pray to if you need to be protected from thunder.

But apparently some of us don\\\'t know the Golden Bough was debunked?

\\\"Nothing but empty words.\\\" Many of their more traditional priests (\\\'\\\'hataali\\\'\\\') have the same opinion of the Native American Church.

But please, discuss if you will the theology of the masked dancers in the Yei Bichaai, or the possible Puebloan origins of the Four Male Holy People of the Fourth World. You get self-righteous to me about indigenous religions? Okay, let\\\'s hear you discuss the Snake Clan\\\'s role in Hopi opposition to snowmaking on the San Francisco Peaks.

That\\\'s what I thought. You don\\\'t know a goddamn thing.

My objection to your grotesque, laughable, \\\'\\\'provincial\\\'\\\' attempt to draw a parallel between Christianity and a Cargo Cult is twofold. First is RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment—it\\\'s insulting to a third of the human race, \\\'\\\'without\\\'\\\' being fucking funny enough to warrant it. Apart from messianism—which, again, is not actually a major factor in Cargo Cults, claiming a visionary founder isn\\\'t the same thing—there is very little in common between Christianity and that kind of religion. Christianity from the very beginning defined itself in \\\'\\\'opposition\\\'\\\' to the religion and customs not only of the Romans—which is who they\\\'d have been copying if they\\\'d been a Cargo Cult—but also of the Jews. Christianity, like Buddhism, is one of a very few truly transcendent religions; they\\\'re always going to be more different from than similar to any other religion you compare them to, even each other. Just for example, though both Christianity and Buddhism are transcendent religions that promise salvation from existential suffering, messianism does not make up a major component of Buddhist thought. The Maitreya is a relatively minor figure in their cosmology. And identifying \\\'\\\'him\\\'\\\' with the Dharmakaya isn\\\'t in any way significant, certainly not in the way Jesus\\\' divinity is in Christianity, because the whole \\\'\\\'point\\\'\\\' of Buddhism is that \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' is identical with the Dharmakaya. It\\\'s called advaita.

More importantly, though, your version wasn\\\'t accurate. Jesus is not held to be a prophet by Christians, at least Christians who in any way, shape or form accept the ecumenical councils. They consider him to be \\\'\\\'God\\\'\\\'. They don\\\'t consider heaven a reward; I got distracted by your \\\'\\\'risible\\\'\\\' assertion that Sola Gratia is \\\"rather popular\\\"—it\\\'s held by a sixth of all Christians, \\\'\\\'tops\\\'\\\'—but Sola Gratia itself is the precise \\\'\\\'opposite\\\'\\\' of heaven being a reward. All Christians who are in any way \\\"orthodox\\\" deny, \\\'\\\'explicitly,\\\'\\\' Salvation by Works. The Calvinists—with their Sola Gratia—deny that the human will has any role at all in salvation; they\\\'re monothelite. The Orthodox and Catholics say that the human\\\'s role is to \\\'\\\'cooperate\\\'\\\' with grace; Lutherans come closest to teaching that heaven is a reward, with their Sola Fide, but it\\\'s not even a fair characterization of them. All of them agree that nobody \\\'\\\'earns\\\'\\\' salvation; it\\\'s a \\\'\\\'gift\\\'\\\'. Pretty much from the Council of Jerusalem, Christians have self-defined \\\'\\\'in opposition to\\\'\\\' the Jewish concept of \\\"earning a portion in the World to Come\\\". And if you can find me the council, encyclical, or other document of any major Christian body that declared Pascal\\\'s Wager anything other than a rhetorical device, I\\\'d dearly love to see it.

Frankly, the current form of the definition is just as bad as the other one, only instead of being shallowly anti-Christian, it\\\'s shallowly racist. Because nobody, not even Cargo Cultists, \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' use their religion as an explanation of things they don\\\'t understand. The Thunder People in Navajo mythology are not some dim anthropomorphism to make thunder \\\"understandable\\\"; they are just the Holy People you pray to if you need to be protected from thunder.

But apparently some of us don\\\'t know the Golden Bough was debunked?

\\\"Nothing but empty words.\\\" Many of their more traditional priests (\\\'\\\'hataali\\\'\\\') have the same opinion of the Native American Church.

But please, discuss if you will the theology of the masked dancers in the Yei Bichaai, or the possible Puebloan origins of the Four Male Holy People of the Fourth World. You get self-righteous to me about indigenous religions? Okay, let\\\'s hear you discuss the Snake Clan\\\'s role in Hopi opposition to snowmaking on the San Francisco Peaks.

That\\\'s what I thought. You don\\\'t know a goddamn thing.

My objection to your grotesque, laughable, \\\'\\\'provincial\\\'\\\' attempt to draw a parallel between Christianity and a Cargo Cult is twofold. First is RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment—it\\\'s insulting to a third of the human race, \\\'\\\'without\\\'\\\' being fucking funny enough to warrant it. Apart from messianism—which, again, is not actually a major factor in Cargo Cults, claiming a visionary founder isn\\\'t the same thing—there is very little in common between Christianity and that kind of religion. Christianity from the very beginning defined itself in \\\'\\\'opposition\\\'\\\' to the religion and customs not only of the Romans—which is who they\\\'d have been copying if they\\\'d been a Cargo Cult—but also of the Jews. Christianity, like Buddhism, is one of a very few truly transcendent religions; they\\\'re always going to be more different from than similar to any other religion you compare them to, even each other. Just for example, messianism does not make up a major component of Buddhist thought; the Maitreya is a relatively minor figure in their cosmology. And identifying \\\'\\\'him\\\'\\\' with the Dharmakaya isn\\\'t in any way significant, certainly not in the way Jesus\\\' divinity is in Christianity, because the whole \\\'\\\'point\\\'\\\' of Buddhism is that \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' is identical with the Dharmakaya. It\\\'s called advaita.

More importantly, though, your version wasn\\\'t accurate. Jesus is not held to be a prophet by Christians, at least Christians who in any way, shape or form accept the ecumenical councils. They consider him to be \\\'\\\'God\\\'\\\'. They don\\\'t consider heaven a reward; I got distracted by your \\\'\\\'risible\\\'\\\' assertion that Sola Gratia is \\\"rather popular\\\"—it\\\'s held by a sixth of all Christians, \\\'\\\'tops\\\'\\\'—but Sola Gratia itself is the precise \\\'\\\'opposite\\\'\\\' of heaven being a reward. All Christians who are in any way \\\"orthodox\\\" deny, \\\'\\\'explicitly,\\\'\\\' Salvation by Works. The Calvinists—with their Sola Gratia—deny that the human will has any role at all in salvation; they\\\'re monothelite. The Orthodox and Catholics say that the human\\\'s role is to \\\'\\\'cooperate\\\'\\\' with grace; Lutherans come closest to teaching that heaven is a reward, with their Sola Fide, but it\\\'s not even a fair characterization of them. All of them agree that nobody \\\'\\\'earns\\\'\\\' salvation; it\\\'s a \\\'\\\'gift\\\'\\\'. Pretty much from the Council of Jerusalem, Christians have self-defined \\\'\\\'in opposition to\\\'\\\' the Jewish concept of \\\"earning a portion in the World to Come\\\". And if you can find me the council, encyclical, or other document of any major Christian body that declared Pascal\\\'s Wager anything other than a rhetorical device, I\\\'d dearly love to see it.

Frankly, the current form of the definition is just as bad as the other one, only instead of being shallowly anti-Christian, it\\\'s shallowly racist. Because nobody, not even Cargo Cultists, \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' use their religion as an explanation of things they don\\\'t understand. The Thunder People in Navajo mythology are not some dim anthropomorphism to make thunder \\\"understandable\\\"; they are just the Holy People you pray to if you need to be protected from thunder.

But apparently some of us don\\\'t know the Golden Bough was debunked?

\\\"Nothing but empty words.\\\" Many of their more traditional priests (\\\'\\\'hataali\\\'\\\') have the same opinion of the Native American Church.

But please, discuss if you will the theology of the masked dancers in the Yei Bichaai, or the possible Puebloan origins of the Four Male Holy People of the Fourth World. You get self-righteous to me about indigenous religions? Okay, let\\\'s hear you discuss the Snake Clan\\\'s role in Hopi opposition to snowmaking on the San Francisco Peaks.

That\\\'s what I thought. You don\\\'t know a goddamn thing.

My objection to your grotesque, laughable, \\\'\\\'provincial\\\'\\\' attempt to draw a parallel between Christianity and a Cargo Cult is twofold. First is RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment—it\\\'s insulting to a third of the human race, \\\'\\\'without\\\'\\\' being fucking funny enough to warrant it. Apart from messianism—which, again, is not actually a major factor in Cargo Cults, claiming a visionary founder isn\\\'t the same thing—there is very little in common between Christianity and that kind of religion. Christianity from the very beginning defined itself in \\\'\\\'opposition\\\'\\\' to the religion and customs not only of the Romans—which is who they\\\'d have been copying if they\\\'d been a Cargo Cult—but also of the Jews. Christianity, like Buddhism, is one of a very few truly transcendent religions; they\\\'re always going to be more different from than similar to any other religion you compare them to, even each other. Just for example, messianism does not make up a major component of Buddhist thought; the Maitreya is a relatively minor figure in their cosmology. And identifying \\\'\\\'him\\\'\\\' with the Dharmakaya isn\\\'t in any way significant, certainly not in the way Jesus\\\' divinity is in Christianity, because the whole \\\'\\\'point\\\'\\\' of Buddhism is that \\\'\\\'everything\\\'\\\' is identical with the Dharmakaya. It\\\'s called advaita.

More importantly, though, your version wasn\\\'t accurate. Jesus is not held to be a prophet by Christians, at least Christians who in any way, shape or form accept the ecumenical councils. They consider him to be \\\'\\\'God\\\'\\\'. They don\\\'t consider heaven a reward; I got distracted by your \\\'\\\'risible\\\'\\\' assertion that Sola Gratia is \\\"rather popular\\\"—it\\\'s held by a sixth of all Christians, \\\'\\\'tops\\\'\\\'—but Sola Gratia itself is the precise \\\'\\\'opposite\\\'\\\' of heaven being a reward. All Christians who are in any way \\\"orthodox\\\" deny, \\\'\\\'explicitly,\\\'\\\' Salvation by Works. The Calvinists—with their Sola Gratia—deny that the human will has any role at all in salvation; they\\\'re monothelite. The Orthodox and Catholics say that the human\\\'s role is to \\\'\\\'cooperate\\\'\\\' with grace; Lutherans come closest to teaching that heaven is a reward, with their Sola Fide, but it\\\'s not even a fair characterization of them. All of them agree that nobody \\\'\\\'earns\\\'\\\' salvation; it\\\'s a \\\'\\\'gift\\\'\\\'. Pretty much from the Council of Jerusalem, Christians have self-defined \\\'\\\'in opposition to\\\'\\\' the Jewish concept of \\\"earning a portion in the World to Come\\\".

If you can find me the council, encyclical, or other document of any major Christian body that declared Pascal\\\'s Wager anything other than a rhetorical device, I\\\'d dearly love to see it.

Frankly, the current form of the definition is just as bad as the other one, only instead of being shallowly anti-Christian, it\\\'s shallowly racist. Because nobody, not even Cargo Cultists, \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' use their religion as an explanation of things they don\\\'t understand. The Thunder People in Navajo mythology are not some dim anthropomorphism to make thunder \\\"understandable\\\"; they are just the Holy People you pray to if you need to be protected from thunder.

But apparently some of us don\\\'t know the Golden Bough was debunked?

To respond to something you said in your edit reasons, Evilest Tim, no, I have no objection to you comparing Christianity to real indigenous religions. I myself have compared it to the Navajo and Hopi religions, to which it bears a great resemblance. But a cargo cult is not an authentic indigenous religion; it\\\'s a desperate attempt by a disadvantaged people to prop up their way of life by slavishly aping more successful peoples, with no true understanding. It\\\'s more a cultural pathology than a real religious development, an unnaturally accelerated and abrupt syncretism. Know what the Navajo called the Ghost Dance, which was in many ways analogous to a Cargo Cult?