[002]
NEX7
Current Version
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
* Coulson said so himself when talking with Ward, when Ward says that Christian will probably have him executed for his crimes just in time for the elections, and Coulson agrees, saying that it was Christian's idea.
to:
* Coulson said so himself when talking with Ward, when Ward says that Christian will probably have him executed for his crimes just in time for the elections, and Coulson agrees, saying that it was Christian\'s idea.
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
** Akela Amador, for example was taken into SHIELD custody, who at the time were a legitimate agency with authority to do this, and she would receive a fair trial were Coulson, who was extremely sympathetic to her given that she was his former trainee (and thus someone the protagonist really cared about) would be allowed to testify in her defense. Miles (who Coulson isn't sympathetic at all to), however, is a case of StrawmanHasAPoint, given that his criticisms of SHIELD are proven later on to be correct, but no one ever brings him up when his criticisms are validated, and given that his actions indirectly got a SHIELD agent (who Coulson is sympathetic to) killed, Coulson up and dumps him in the middle of China with absolutely no way to get home, rather than give him a fair trail. If anything, this just proves my point of hypocrisy.
** You seem to have misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Skye's, Deathlok's, or Cal's crimes were aimed at SHIELD. I mean that it didn't bring any lasting physical harm as in it didn't get any agents harmed or killed like with Ward or Miles, even if they were far less responsible (Miles to Skye and Deathlok) or are guilty of harming less people (Ward to Cal) but are treated much more negatively just because the exact people that were harmed were SHIELD agents that Coulson and the protagonists knew and cared about rather than random civilians and people who the narrative couldn't care less about because we don't see or know them; like Cal's statement is treated by the narrative of
** You seem to have misunderstood what I'm saying. I'm not saying that Skye's, Deathlok's, or Cal's crimes were aimed at SHIELD. I mean that it didn't bring any lasting physical harm as in it didn't get any agents harmed or killed like with Ward or Miles, even if they were far less responsible (Miles to Skye and Deathlok) or are guilty of harming less people (Ward to Cal) but are treated much more negatively just because the exact people that were harmed were SHIELD agents that Coulson and the protagonists knew and cared about rather than random civilians and people who the narrative couldn't care less about because we don't see or know them; like Cal's statement is treated by the narrative of
to:
** Akela Amador, for example was taken into SHIELD custody, who at the time were a legitimate agency with authority to do this, and she would receive a fair trial were Coulson, who was extremely sympathetic to her given that she was his former trainee (and thus someone the protagonist really cared about) would be allowed to testify in her defense. Miles (who Coulson isn\'t sympathetic at all to), however, is a case of StrawmanHasAPoint, given that his criticisms of SHIELD are proven later on to be correct, but no one ever brings him up when his criticisms are validated, and given that his actions indirectly got a SHIELD agent (who Coulson is sympathetic to) killed, Coulson up and dumps him in the middle of China with absolutely no way to get home, rather than give him a fair trail. If anything, this just proves my point of hypocrisy.
** You seem to have misunderstood what I\'m saying. I\'m not saying that Skye\'s, Deathlok\'s, or Cal\'s crimes weren\'t aimed at SHIELD. I mean that it didn\'t bring any lasting physical harm as in it didn\'t get any agents harmed or killed like with Ward or Miles, even if they were far less responsible (Miles to Skye and Deathlok) or are guilty of harming less people (Ward to Cal) but are treated much more negatively just because the exact people that were harmed were SHIELD agents that Coulson and the protagonists knew and cared about rather than random civilians and people who the narrative couldn\'t care less about because we don\'t see or know them; like Cal\'s statement is treated by the narrative of \"Never SHIELD agents, only people\". The story treats this as a positive factor, that the fact that Cal\'s victims were random civilians instead of SHIELD agents is a good thing.
** No, it isn\'t. Ward was taken/kidnapped by Garrett when he was 15 years old and manipulated for 15 years, 5 of which he was kept isolated in a forest with no human contact save for Garrett, whereas Cal was already a man in his mid to late 20s/early to mid 30s when Jaiying started manipulating, despite only having average contact with her. To say that Cal was more of a victim because it was longer is like saying that a 10 year old kid was kidnapped and locked in a basement for 5 years with no human contact save for his kidnapper is less of a victim than an 35 year old adult who was manipulated for 10 years by his on-again-off-again girlfriend who he saw from time to time simply because it lasted longer. And no, I\'m not taking the line out of context, if Coulson only kept Ward alive out of use, that means that the moment Ward was no longer of use in combating HYDRA was the moment they were going to murder him.
*Okay, so let\'s agree that SHIELD had no legal authority to hold Ward because they were no longer a legitimate agency and instead a bunch of unauthorized vigilante spies. They by the same logic they shouldn\'t be able to register the Inhumans against their will since it\'s a case of a violation of civil rights. In fact, it\'s kinda similar to the Civil War issue in the comics.
* Saying that Fitz was justified in torturing Ward over him leaving him brain-damaged is like saying that then Kara is justified in torturing Bobbi because HYDRA captured her because of Bobbi. It may have been understandable and sympathetic, but not justified. I already made my point about the manipulated trial (see above). As for the paling comparison, you misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was agreeing with you, Ward\'s later crimes are much worse than what SHIELD did to him. I\'m saying that Ward\'s worst crime, torturing Bobbi, is the same thing that Cal himself was doing in the series over a course of 25 years. Yet only when Ward does it it is treated as a MoralEventHorizon by the narrative because it was on a protagonist rather than random faceless people, despite the fact that Ward had far better (even if unjustified) reasons for doing so than Cal. And, again, I already gave my part about Coulson planning to kill Ward once he had nothing more to offer or be of use (see above). Plus, didn\'t Coulson say at the end of S1 that he was planning on making Ward suffer? So they only kept Ward from killing himself because he was of use and so they could make him suffer. They didn\'t end up protecting him.
** Actually, Coulson did believe Ward about Christian. He said so himself in Frenemy of My Enemy-\"Maybe your family, Christian, Garrett, they didn\'t take all the good away from you.\" If Coulson believed that Christian and his family was an influential in making Ward who he was as a much as Garrett was, then it\'s because Coulson did believe what Ward said about Christian, he just didn\'t care. And as for Christian being a democratically elected senator, that\'s quite obviously because the public didn\'t know the truth about his past behavior. It\'s practically guaranteed that if his past behavior did become public knowledge, Christian would be somehow lose office. Again, use Kilgrave as an example. Let\'s suppose Kilgrave legitimately became a Senator and the public has no knowledge about his crimes, with the exception of SHIELD and Jessica. Jessica tells Coulson while imprisoned for killing SHIELD agents, and Coulson then talks to Kilgrave, who says that he will use his powers and influence in the Congress and powers to help SHIELD in exchange for Jessica, and Coulson agreeing, and the narrative portraying this as ok because Jessica totally deserves this for her crimes. About the Thomas thing, I will admit that is something of a BrokenBase given Ward\'s flashback, with many people seeing it as true and in character and others as a retcon to try take away sympathy from the character to those who still felt it. And again, no, Ward was being transferred into Christian\'s custody, Skye and Coulson said so (\"You\'re brother wants you in his custody, and we\'re giving him exactly what he wants\"). The US Military was simply in charge of transferring Ward to Christian, and even then, those were soldiers selected by Christian, as he points out when trying to talk to Ward.
** I have to admit, I hadn\'t thought about the stranded at sea without supplies.
Kara points:
* Coulson had even less resources when he did track Kara down. When Kara was kidnapped, he had about a bit more than a dozen agents, a base, wasn\'t on the run, and had the cube, yet he didn\'t try to rescue Kara. But when Skye was kidnapped, despite being in the middle of a SHIELD civil war, on the run, with only two agents by his side, and no base, Coulson did track Kara down because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye.
* I don\'t recall Iron Man making a rape joke in Age of Ultron. But having making a shitty joke is quite different than making a shitty joke about the suffering of someone they know, especially when they were the one\'s who caused it. It would be like if Koenig made a joke about Tripp\'s death or Skye smashing Tripp to bits, and no one calling them out on it, which I doubt would happen.
* I could ask you how Bobbi is presented in a positive light? May is presented as being right in that, despite other\'s bringing up the brainwashing point, May is the one who get\'s the final word in that Kara is somehow still guilty, even though she was brainwashed, while Bobbi is presented as being positive in that she feels guilty for what happened to Kara despite it being in \"no way\" her fault, according to the May and the narrative.
Like I said, the show does present SHIELD as being more heroic than they actually are, such as when May or Coulson or Fury are talking about what SHIELD stands for and what it\'s agents are all about, such as honesty, loyalty, truth, and all that stuff.
The show while there are instances of Coulson admitting his flaws, and the story kind of presenting him as a negative light, with Coulson himself admitting so of those points, I agree, the story ultimately always ends with Coulson being presented as in the right about everything and others being wrong in the end. As for the Ward and Kara being treated unfairly, the reference itself in the page says that SHIELD is mostly justified in their treatment of Ward, with them crossing the line only a couple of times, and as for Kara, the show, while treating what happened to her as tragic, does treat it as totally not being SHIELD\'s fault in anyway and in her grudge against them being unjustified and something she needs to get over.
I\'m sorry, but the show doesn\'t really seem to treat SHIELD as morally grey in my opinion. They seem to treat SHIELD and it\'s agents, with the exception of May, as something just short of the IdealHero, and again, flawed but not grey or asshole-lish.
** You seem to have misunderstood what I\'m saying. I\'m not saying that Skye\'s, Deathlok\'s, or Cal\'s crimes weren\'t aimed at SHIELD. I mean that it didn\'t bring any lasting physical harm as in it didn\'t get any agents harmed or killed like with Ward or Miles, even if they were far less responsible (Miles to Skye and Deathlok) or are guilty of harming less people (Ward to Cal) but are treated much more negatively just because the exact people that were harmed were SHIELD agents that Coulson and the protagonists knew and cared about rather than random civilians and people who the narrative couldn\'t care less about because we don\'t see or know them; like Cal\'s statement is treated by the narrative of \"Never SHIELD agents, only people\". The story treats this as a positive factor, that the fact that Cal\'s victims were random civilians instead of SHIELD agents is a good thing.
** No, it isn\'t. Ward was taken/kidnapped by Garrett when he was 15 years old and manipulated for 15 years, 5 of which he was kept isolated in a forest with no human contact save for Garrett, whereas Cal was already a man in his mid to late 20s/early to mid 30s when Jaiying started manipulating, despite only having average contact with her. To say that Cal was more of a victim because it was longer is like saying that a 10 year old kid was kidnapped and locked in a basement for 5 years with no human contact save for his kidnapper is less of a victim than an 35 year old adult who was manipulated for 10 years by his on-again-off-again girlfriend who he saw from time to time simply because it lasted longer. And no, I\'m not taking the line out of context, if Coulson only kept Ward alive out of use, that means that the moment Ward was no longer of use in combating HYDRA was the moment they were going to murder him.
*Okay, so let\'s agree that SHIELD had no legal authority to hold Ward because they were no longer a legitimate agency and instead a bunch of unauthorized vigilante spies. They by the same logic they shouldn\'t be able to register the Inhumans against their will since it\'s a case of a violation of civil rights. In fact, it\'s kinda similar to the Civil War issue in the comics.
* Saying that Fitz was justified in torturing Ward over him leaving him brain-damaged is like saying that then Kara is justified in torturing Bobbi because HYDRA captured her because of Bobbi. It may have been understandable and sympathetic, but not justified. I already made my point about the manipulated trial (see above). As for the paling comparison, you misread/misunderstood what I wrote. I was agreeing with you, Ward\'s later crimes are much worse than what SHIELD did to him. I\'m saying that Ward\'s worst crime, torturing Bobbi, is the same thing that Cal himself was doing in the series over a course of 25 years. Yet only when Ward does it it is treated as a MoralEventHorizon by the narrative because it was on a protagonist rather than random faceless people, despite the fact that Ward had far better (even if unjustified) reasons for doing so than Cal. And, again, I already gave my part about Coulson planning to kill Ward once he had nothing more to offer or be of use (see above). Plus, didn\'t Coulson say at the end of S1 that he was planning on making Ward suffer? So they only kept Ward from killing himself because he was of use and so they could make him suffer. They didn\'t end up protecting him.
** Actually, Coulson did believe Ward about Christian. He said so himself in Frenemy of My Enemy-\"Maybe your family, Christian, Garrett, they didn\'t take all the good away from you.\" If Coulson believed that Christian and his family was an influential in making Ward who he was as a much as Garrett was, then it\'s because Coulson did believe what Ward said about Christian, he just didn\'t care. And as for Christian being a democratically elected senator, that\'s quite obviously because the public didn\'t know the truth about his past behavior. It\'s practically guaranteed that if his past behavior did become public knowledge, Christian would be somehow lose office. Again, use Kilgrave as an example. Let\'s suppose Kilgrave legitimately became a Senator and the public has no knowledge about his crimes, with the exception of SHIELD and Jessica. Jessica tells Coulson while imprisoned for killing SHIELD agents, and Coulson then talks to Kilgrave, who says that he will use his powers and influence in the Congress and powers to help SHIELD in exchange for Jessica, and Coulson agreeing, and the narrative portraying this as ok because Jessica totally deserves this for her crimes. About the Thomas thing, I will admit that is something of a BrokenBase given Ward\'s flashback, with many people seeing it as true and in character and others as a retcon to try take away sympathy from the character to those who still felt it. And again, no, Ward was being transferred into Christian\'s custody, Skye and Coulson said so (\"You\'re brother wants you in his custody, and we\'re giving him exactly what he wants\"). The US Military was simply in charge of transferring Ward to Christian, and even then, those were soldiers selected by Christian, as he points out when trying to talk to Ward.
** I have to admit, I hadn\'t thought about the stranded at sea without supplies.
Kara points:
* Coulson had even less resources when he did track Kara down. When Kara was kidnapped, he had about a bit more than a dozen agents, a base, wasn\'t on the run, and had the cube, yet he didn\'t try to rescue Kara. But when Skye was kidnapped, despite being in the middle of a SHIELD civil war, on the run, with only two agents by his side, and no base, Coulson did track Kara down because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye.
* I don\'t recall Iron Man making a rape joke in Age of Ultron. But having making a shitty joke is quite different than making a shitty joke about the suffering of someone they know, especially when they were the one\'s who caused it. It would be like if Koenig made a joke about Tripp\'s death or Skye smashing Tripp to bits, and no one calling them out on it, which I doubt would happen.
* I could ask you how Bobbi is presented in a positive light? May is presented as being right in that, despite other\'s bringing up the brainwashing point, May is the one who get\'s the final word in that Kara is somehow still guilty, even though she was brainwashed, while Bobbi is presented as being positive in that she feels guilty for what happened to Kara despite it being in \"no way\" her fault, according to the May and the narrative.
Like I said, the show does present SHIELD as being more heroic than they actually are, such as when May or Coulson or Fury are talking about what SHIELD stands for and what it\'s agents are all about, such as honesty, loyalty, truth, and all that stuff.
The show while there are instances of Coulson admitting his flaws, and the story kind of presenting him as a negative light, with Coulson himself admitting so of those points, I agree, the story ultimately always ends with Coulson being presented as in the right about everything and others being wrong in the end. As for the Ward and Kara being treated unfairly, the reference itself in the page says that SHIELD is mostly justified in their treatment of Ward, with them crossing the line only a couple of times, and as for Kara, the show, while treating what happened to her as tragic, does treat it as totally not being SHIELD\'s fault in anyway and in her grudge against them being unjustified and something she needs to get over.
I\'m sorry, but the show doesn\'t really seem to treat SHIELD as morally grey in my opinion. They seem to treat SHIELD and it\'s agents, with the exception of May, as something just short of the IdealHero, and again, flawed but not grey or asshole-lish.
