[003]
NEX7
Current Version
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
to:
Replying to the above topics. And also stating that like the above troper, it\'s been a while since I\'ve seen the show.
* I agree, it is a huge mess to read, so reducing it can be something done.
* Second, um, SHIELD did cut a deal with Christian to have Ward executed in an manipulated trial, worked with the ATCU, and were in favor of registering the Inhumans before they found out about Skye\'s connection to them, with that playing a *huge* role in why they decided not to register them.
* They only investigated the ATCU for corruption when and because they weren\'t okay with letting them take Daisy rather than any actual legitimate reason, and being portrayed as being in the right is a case of flawed morality.
* Um, yes it did. The whole first season was about Coulson saying \"Sometimes it\'s not a bad seed, just a bad influence/Nobody\'s nobody/You can save someone from themselves if you get to them early enough/Whether it\'s one man or all of mankind, SHIELD believes everyone is worth saving\". Like you said, many did try some harm to the group, but in the cases where redemption was rarely offered, it was only towards people whose actions actually brought lasting physical harm to SHIELD, even if others are guilty of much worse towards other parties.
** Ex: Skye, was a hacker, didn\'t actually cause any damage aside from lying; Deathlok, again, attacked them, but didn\'t cause any damage to SHIELD at the time; and Cal, who, among other things, killed an entire village in a single night and then spent the next 25 years butchering people just because he was angry, \"is called a victim of manipulation\", and is portrayed in a positive light when asked about his victims by Jaiying because, as Cal stated, he \"Never killed a SHIELD agent, only people\", and is offered aid at least twice by Coulson, such as when \"saving\" him from Whitehall and the second time at in the S2 finale. Ward, on the other hand, who is about just as much, if not more of a victim of manipulation than Cal, and who killed only about 15 people at the end of the first season and 25-30 people at max by the end of season 2, is offered redemption only once (if the first time you\'re talking about is during Ward\'s stay at the Guest House, Coulson kept Ward there with the intention of murdering him all along, he stated so himself, \"The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use\", meaning that once Ward stopped being of use, Coulson was going to murder Ward), and the second time, Coulson only offered Ward a second chance because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye, and even then Coulson still gives Ward more grief for murdering 15-20 people than he gives Cal, who murdered at least hundreds, because those 15-20 were SHIELD agents, some of whom Coulson personally cared about, compared to Cal\'s faceless victims. As for Kara, I don\'t really recall Coulson ever offering her any sort of redemption, and Kara assaulting May, if I\'m not mistaken, only happened while she under brainwashing. Kara\'s worst crime is torturing Bobbi alongside Ward, which even then, had a sympathetic (even in unjustified in her actions) reason for it.
* No, the only one in the team who wasn\'t hesitant of the Inhumans at first at all, including Skye, was Fitz, everyone else did want to register the Inhumans, including Coulson and May. It was only later decided, with Skye as a big influence on many of the team members, such as Coulson, to not treating them as a threat.
* Not really. Coulson kept Ward imprisoned with the intention of murdering him the whole time, Fitz suffocated Ward, which yes, is a form of torture, just as much as waterboarding and suffocating someone with a plastic bag is, and Coulson sold off Ward to Christian to a manipulated trial (which is a violation of someone\'s civil right-the right to a fair trial), and what SHIELD did to Ward paling in comparison to his worst crime later on, which is torturing Bobbi, well, that really no worse of different than what Cal did to a bunch of random people over the years. And last, I know the show kinda looks down upon this view of \"Coulson sold Ward off to his abuser\" as shown in \"Dirty Half-Dozen\", but I really dispute that mentality.
** Let me give a different example by putting different characters of an abuser-victim relationship that we, the audience, empathize with differently, in the same position as Ward and Christian that I really doubt people would\'ve been ok with SHIELD\'s actions-Jessica and Kilgrave. Let\'s suppose, if Jessica, after what Kilgrave did to her, became an anti-villain rather than a hero. Jessica is put in Ward\'s position, someone she loves, let\'s say Luke Cage, is dying, SHIELD are the only ones who have a cure but refuse to share it, and so Jessica reluctantly kills a few SHIELD agents to get the cure and save Luke. She is imprisoned afterwards, and while there, Coulson meets Kilgrave, and Kilgrave says that, if Coulson gives Jessica to him, Kilgrave will use his powers of voice manipulation to help SHIELD, to which Coulson agrees, and the story portrays this as okay and something Jessica totally deserves. Later on, when Jessica is on the Bus saying mistakes were made, such as \"Coulson sold me off to my rapist.\" I\'m pretty sure that if the counter-argument was \"After you killed how many people?\", no one would\'ve been okay with the logic that that somehow justifies sending someone back to their rapist.
** As for the Bobbi and Mack, I do agree that they have a point and that their crimes are less severe, and different in nature from Ward\'s crimes, so I have no problem removing that. That being said, when Ward dumped FitzSimmons into the ocean, the pod was supposed to float, as Fitz himself stated, saying that it only didn\'t because of a malfunction, which I find extremely convenient is not pointed out in later conversations. Which is not to say I don\'t believe Ward isn\'t responsible for Fitz\'s brain-damage, IMO he is since his actions did result in Fitz\'s injury, but when Bobbi is put in the same position as to how her actions affected Kara, the show treats it like Bobbi is completely not at fault, which I do believe is something of a double-standard of the show towards SHIELD.
* I actually completely agree about the Skye part, and am more than okay with removing that part.
Kara Stuff:
* No one is saying May was wrong to defend herself. The problem comes from the fact that there were multiple times when SHIELD could\'ve helped Kara, but didn\'t, especially when it\'s revealed that the cube Coulson possessed since the beginning of S2 could have tracked Kara down all along, yet he only decided to track her down when he needed her and Ward\'s help to save Skye, not to save Kara. That\'s what\'s being argued.
* Um, it kinda does that given that Koenig is an active agent of SHIELD, and that the protagonists seem to have no problem with it or call him out on it, nor the show portray Koenig in a negative light due to the fact that he is joking about a very serious predicament like that. And again, as the DesignatedHero page stated, the DesignatedHero is a \"JerkAss at best, a villain at worst\". And I\'m pretty sure the show does try to present the Koenig brothers as likable people.
* Actually, May\'s comments are meant to be seen as correct and right, just as much or even more so than Bobbi\'s. Bobbi is portrayed in a positive light due to feeling guilty over what happened to Kara, but it is ultimately May who is meant to be seen as in the right. And yes, while May may not have known about Bobbi\'s role in Kara being captured by HYDRA (which is never clarified), May did know that Kara\'s action\'s with HYDRA were the result of brainwashing and not something Kara did out of her own freewill, and still holds a grudge that is portrayed as justified.
* I agree that that there are many points where the protagonists call each other out on things, but there are just as many cases where there protagonists don\'t call each other out on their crimes or their flaws and double-standards are portrayed as virtues, such as the ones listed above, or, again, the case of their morals not matching their actual actions, such as Skye\'s and Coulson\'s \"SHIELD never leaves a man behind\", despite that being exactly what they did to Garrett and Kara.
The show does treat SHIELD as ultimately being unquestionably heroic, such as the question of his leadership. Yes Coulson\'s leadership is questioned, but rarely do those questioning ever stick, and a good most of the time, Coulson is treated as being right about his leadership in the end or all along, with the people who questioned him being portrayed as either being grey characters or in the wrong to have ever doubted him.
That being said, the above proper has raised some fairly legit points about the entry that I\'m willing to change.
* I agree, it is a huge mess to read, so reducing it can be something done.
* Second, um, SHIELD did cut a deal with Christian to have Ward executed in an manipulated trial, worked with the ATCU, and were in favor of registering the Inhumans before they found out about Skye\'s connection to them, with that playing a *huge* role in why they decided not to register them.
* They only investigated the ATCU for corruption when and because they weren\'t okay with letting them take Daisy rather than any actual legitimate reason, and being portrayed as being in the right is a case of flawed morality.
* Um, yes it did. The whole first season was about Coulson saying \"Sometimes it\'s not a bad seed, just a bad influence/Nobody\'s nobody/You can save someone from themselves if you get to them early enough/Whether it\'s one man or all of mankind, SHIELD believes everyone is worth saving\". Like you said, many did try some harm to the group, but in the cases where redemption was rarely offered, it was only towards people whose actions actually brought lasting physical harm to SHIELD, even if others are guilty of much worse towards other parties.
** Ex: Skye, was a hacker, didn\'t actually cause any damage aside from lying; Deathlok, again, attacked them, but didn\'t cause any damage to SHIELD at the time; and Cal, who, among other things, killed an entire village in a single night and then spent the next 25 years butchering people just because he was angry, \"is called a victim of manipulation\", and is portrayed in a positive light when asked about his victims by Jaiying because, as Cal stated, he \"Never killed a SHIELD agent, only people\", and is offered aid at least twice by Coulson, such as when \"saving\" him from Whitehall and the second time at in the S2 finale. Ward, on the other hand, who is about just as much, if not more of a victim of manipulation than Cal, and who killed only about 15 people at the end of the first season and 25-30 people at max by the end of season 2, is offered redemption only once (if the first time you\'re talking about is during Ward\'s stay at the Guest House, Coulson kept Ward there with the intention of murdering him all along, he stated so himself, \"The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use\", meaning that once Ward stopped being of use, Coulson was going to murder Ward), and the second time, Coulson only offered Ward a second chance because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye, and even then Coulson still gives Ward more grief for murdering 15-20 people than he gives Cal, who murdered at least hundreds, because those 15-20 were SHIELD agents, some of whom Coulson personally cared about, compared to Cal\'s faceless victims. As for Kara, I don\'t really recall Coulson ever offering her any sort of redemption, and Kara assaulting May, if I\'m not mistaken, only happened while she under brainwashing. Kara\'s worst crime is torturing Bobbi alongside Ward, which even then, had a sympathetic (even in unjustified in her actions) reason for it.
* No, the only one in the team who wasn\'t hesitant of the Inhumans at first at all, including Skye, was Fitz, everyone else did want to register the Inhumans, including Coulson and May. It was only later decided, with Skye as a big influence on many of the team members, such as Coulson, to not treating them as a threat.
* Not really. Coulson kept Ward imprisoned with the intention of murdering him the whole time, Fitz suffocated Ward, which yes, is a form of torture, just as much as waterboarding and suffocating someone with a plastic bag is, and Coulson sold off Ward to Christian to a manipulated trial (which is a violation of someone\'s civil right-the right to a fair trial), and what SHIELD did to Ward paling in comparison to his worst crime later on, which is torturing Bobbi, well, that really no worse of different than what Cal did to a bunch of random people over the years. And last, I know the show kinda looks down upon this view of \"Coulson sold Ward off to his abuser\" as shown in \"Dirty Half-Dozen\", but I really dispute that mentality.
** Let me give a different example by putting different characters of an abuser-victim relationship that we, the audience, empathize with differently, in the same position as Ward and Christian that I really doubt people would\'ve been ok with SHIELD\'s actions-Jessica and Kilgrave. Let\'s suppose, if Jessica, after what Kilgrave did to her, became an anti-villain rather than a hero. Jessica is put in Ward\'s position, someone she loves, let\'s say Luke Cage, is dying, SHIELD are the only ones who have a cure but refuse to share it, and so Jessica reluctantly kills a few SHIELD agents to get the cure and save Luke. She is imprisoned afterwards, and while there, Coulson meets Kilgrave, and Kilgrave says that, if Coulson gives Jessica to him, Kilgrave will use his powers of voice manipulation to help SHIELD, to which Coulson agrees, and the story portrays this as okay and something Jessica totally deserves. Later on, when Jessica is on the Bus saying mistakes were made, such as \"Coulson sold me off to my rapist.\" I\'m pretty sure that if the counter-argument was \"After you killed how many people?\", no one would\'ve been okay with the logic that that somehow justifies sending someone back to their rapist.
** As for the Bobbi and Mack, I do agree that they have a point and that their crimes are less severe, and different in nature from Ward\'s crimes, so I have no problem removing that. That being said, when Ward dumped FitzSimmons into the ocean, the pod was supposed to float, as Fitz himself stated, saying that it only didn\'t because of a malfunction, which I find extremely convenient is not pointed out in later conversations. Which is not to say I don\'t believe Ward isn\'t responsible for Fitz\'s brain-damage, IMO he is since his actions did result in Fitz\'s injury, but when Bobbi is put in the same position as to how her actions affected Kara, the show treats it like Bobbi is completely not at fault, which I do believe is something of a double-standard of the show towards SHIELD.
* I actually completely agree about the Skye part, and am more than okay with removing that part.
Kara Stuff:
* No one is saying May was wrong to defend herself. The problem comes from the fact that there were multiple times when SHIELD could\'ve helped Kara, but didn\'t, especially when it\'s revealed that the cube Coulson possessed since the beginning of S2 could have tracked Kara down all along, yet he only decided to track her down when he needed her and Ward\'s help to save Skye, not to save Kara. That\'s what\'s being argued.
* Um, it kinda does that given that Koenig is an active agent of SHIELD, and that the protagonists seem to have no problem with it or call him out on it, nor the show portray Koenig in a negative light due to the fact that he is joking about a very serious predicament like that. And again, as the DesignatedHero page stated, the DesignatedHero is a \"JerkAss at best, a villain at worst\". And I\'m pretty sure the show does try to present the Koenig brothers as likable people.
* Actually, May\'s comments are meant to be seen as correct and right, just as much or even more so than Bobbi\'s. Bobbi is portrayed in a positive light due to feeling guilty over what happened to Kara, but it is ultimately May who is meant to be seen as in the right. And yes, while May may not have known about Bobbi\'s role in Kara being captured by HYDRA (which is never clarified), May did know that Kara\'s action\'s with HYDRA were the result of brainwashing and not something Kara did out of her own freewill, and still holds a grudge that is portrayed as justified.
* I agree that that there are many points where the protagonists call each other out on things, but there are just as many cases where there protagonists don\'t call each other out on their crimes or their flaws and double-standards are portrayed as virtues, such as the ones listed above, or, again, the case of their morals not matching their actual actions, such as Skye\'s and Coulson\'s \"SHIELD never leaves a man behind\", despite that being exactly what they did to Garrett and Kara.
The show does treat SHIELD as ultimately being unquestionably heroic, such as the question of his leadership. Yes Coulson\'s leadership is questioned, but rarely do those questioning ever stick, and a good most of the time, Coulson is treated as being right about his leadership in the end or all along, with the people who questioned him being portrayed as either being grey characters or in the wrong to have ever doubted him.
That being said, the above proper has raised some fairly legit points about the entry that I\'m willing to change.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
to:
Replying to the above topics. And also stating that like the above troper, it\'s been a while since I\'ve seen the show.
* I agree, it is a huge mess to read, so reducing it can be something done.
* Second, um, SHIELD did cut a deal with Christian to have Ward executed in an manipulated trial, worked with the ATCU, and were in favor of registering the Inhumans before they found out about Skye\'s connection to them, with that playing a *huge* role in why they decided not to register them.
* They only investigated the ATCU for corruption when and because they weren\'t okay with letting them take Daisy rather than any actual legitimate reason, and being portrayed as being in the right is a case of flawed morality.
* Um, yes it did. The whole first season was about Coulson saying \"Sometimes it\'s not a bad seed, just a bad influence/Nobody\'s nobody/You can save someone from themselves if you get to them early enough/Whether it\'s one man or all of mankind, SHIELD believes everyone is worth saving\". Like you said, many did try some harm to the group, but in the cases where redemption was rarely offered, it was only towards people whose actions actually brought lasting physical harm to SHIELD, even if others are guilty of much worse towards other parties.
** Ex: Skye, was a hacker, didn\'t actually cause any damage aside from lying; Deathlok, again, attacked them, but didn\'t cause any damage to SHIELD at the time; and Cal, who, among other things, killed an entire village in a single night and then spent the next 25 years butchering people just because he was angry, \"is called a victim of manipulation\", and is portrayed in a positive light when asked about his victims by Jaiying because, as Cal stated, he \"Never killed a SHIELD agent, only people\", and is offered aid at least twice by Coulson, such as when \"saving\" him from Whitehall and the second time at in the S2 finale. Ward, on the other hand, who is about just as much, if not more of a victim of manipulation than Cal, and who killed only about 15 people at the end of the first season and 25-30 people at max by the end of season 2, is offered redemption only once (if the first time you\'re talking about is during Ward\'s stay at the Guest House, Coulson kept Ward there with the intention of murdering him all along, he stated so himself, \"The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use\", meaning that once Ward stopped being of use, Coulson was going to murder Ward), and the second time, Coulson only offered Ward a second chance because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye, and even then Coulson still gives Ward more grief for murdering 15-20 people than he gives Cal, who murdered at least hundreds, because those 15-20 were SHIELD agents, some of whom Coulson personally cared about, compared to Cal\'s faceless victims. As for Kara, I don\'t really recall Coulson ever offering her any sort of redemption, and Kara assaulting May, if I\'m not mistaken, only happened while she under brainwashing. Kara\'s worst crime is torturing Bobbi alongside Ward, which even then, had a sympathetic (even in unjustified in her actions) reason for it.
* No, the only one in the team who wasn\'t hesitant of the Inhumans at first at all, including Skye, was Fitz, everyone else did want to register the Inhumans, including Coulson and May. It was only later decided, with Skye as a big influence on many of the team members, such as Coulson, to not treating them as a threat.
* Not really. Coulson kept Ward imprisoned with the intention of murdering him the whole time, Fitz suffocated Ward, which yes, is a form of torture, just as much as waterboarding and suffocating someone with a plastic bag is, and Coulson sold off Ward to Christian to a manipulated trial (which is a violation of someone\'s civil right-the right to a fair trial), and I know the show kinda looks down upon this view of \"Coulson sold Ward off to his abuser\" as shown in \"Dirty Half-Dozen\", but I really dispute that mentality.
** Let me give a different example by putting different characters of an abuser-victim relationship in the same position as Ward and Christian that I really doubt people would\'ve been ok with SHIELD\'s actions-Jessica and Kilgrave. Let\'s suppose, if Jessica, after what Kilgrave did to her, became an anti-villain rather than a hero. Jessica is put in Ward\'s position, someone she loves, let\'s say Luke Cage, is dying, SHIELD are the only ones who have a cure but refuse to share it, and so Jessica reluctantly kills a few SHIELD agents to get the cure and save Luke. She is imprisoned afterwards, and while there, Coulson meets Kilgrave, and Kilgrave says that, if Coulson gives Jessica to him, Kilgrave will use his powers of voice manipulation to help SHIELD, to which Coulson agrees, and the story portrays this as okay and something Jessica totally deserves. Later on, when Jessica is on the Bus saying mistakes were made, such as \"Coulson sold me off to my rapist.\" I\'m pretty sure that if the counter-argument was \"After you killed how many people?\", no one would\'ve been okay with the logic that that somehow justifies sending someone back to their rapist.
** As for the Bobbi and Mack, I do agree that they have a point and that their crimes are less severe, and different in nature from Ward\'s crimes, so I have no problem removing that. That being said, when Ward dumped FitzSimmons into the ocean, the pod was supposed to float, as Fitz himself stated, saying that it only didn\'t because of a malfunction, which I find extremely convenient is not pointed out in later conversations. Which is not to say I don\'t believe Ward isn\'t responsible for Fitz\'s brain-damage, IMO he is since his actions did result in Fitz\'s injury, but when Bobbi is put in the same position as to how her actions affected Kara, the show treats it like Bobbi is completely not at fault, which I do believe is something of a double-standard of the show towards SHIELD.
* I actually completely agree about the Skye part, and am more than okay with removing that part.
Kara Stuff:
* No one is saying May was wrong to defend herself. The problem comes from the fact that there were multiple times when SHIELD could\'ve helped Kara, but didn\'t, especially when it\'s revealed that the cube Coulson possessed since the beginning of S2 could have tracked Kara down all along, yet he only decided to track her down when he needed her and Ward\'s help to save Skye, not to save Kara. That\'s what\'s being argued.
* Um, it kinda does that given that Koenig is an active agent of SHIELD, and that the protagonists seem to have no problem with it or call him out on it, nor the show portray Koenig in a negative light due to the fact that he is joking about a very serious predicament like that. And again, as the DesignatedHero page stated, the DesignatedHero is a \"JerkAss at best, a villain at worst\". And I\'m pretty sure the show does try to present the Koenig brothers as likable people.
* Actually, May\'s comments are meant to be seen as correct and right, just as much or even more so than Bobbi\'s. Bobbi is portrayed in a positive light due to feeling guilty over what happened to Kara, but it is ultimately May who is meant to be seen as in the right. And yes, while May may not have known about Bobbi\'s role in Kara being captured by HYDRA (which is never clarified), May did know that Kara\'s action\'s with HYDRA were the result of brainwashing, and still holds a grudge that is portrayed as justified.
* I agree that that there are many points where the protagonists call each other out on things, but there are just as many cases where there protagonists don\'t call each other out on their crimes or their flaws and double-standards are portrayed as virtues, such as the ones listed above, or, again, the case of their morals not matching their actual actions, such as Skye\'s and Coulson\'s \"SHIELD never leaves a man behind\", despite that being exactly what they did to Garrett and Kara.
The show does treat SHIELD as ultimately being unquestionably heroic, such as the question of his leadership. Yes Coulson\'s leadership is questioned, but rarely do those questioning ever stick, and a good most of the time, Coulson is treated as being right about his leadership in the end or all along, with the people who questioned him being portrayed as either being grey characters or in the wrong to have ever doubted him.
That being said, the above proper has raised some fairly legit points about the entry that I\'m willing to change.
* I agree, it is a huge mess to read, so reducing it can be something done.
* Second, um, SHIELD did cut a deal with Christian to have Ward executed in an manipulated trial, worked with the ATCU, and were in favor of registering the Inhumans before they found out about Skye\'s connection to them, with that playing a *huge* role in why they decided not to register them.
* They only investigated the ATCU for corruption when and because they weren\'t okay with letting them take Daisy rather than any actual legitimate reason, and being portrayed as being in the right is a case of flawed morality.
* Um, yes it did. The whole first season was about Coulson saying \"Sometimes it\'s not a bad seed, just a bad influence/Nobody\'s nobody/You can save someone from themselves if you get to them early enough/Whether it\'s one man or all of mankind, SHIELD believes everyone is worth saving\". Like you said, many did try some harm to the group, but in the cases where redemption was rarely offered, it was only towards people whose actions actually brought lasting physical harm to SHIELD, even if others are guilty of much worse towards other parties.
** Ex: Skye, was a hacker, didn\'t actually cause any damage aside from lying; Deathlok, again, attacked them, but didn\'t cause any damage to SHIELD at the time; and Cal, who, among other things, killed an entire village in a single night and then spent the next 25 years butchering people just because he was angry, \"is called a victim of manipulation\", and is portrayed in a positive light when asked about his victims by Jaiying because, as Cal stated, he \"Never killed a SHIELD agent, only people\", and is offered aid at least twice by Coulson, such as when \"saving\" him from Whitehall and the second time at in the S2 finale. Ward, on the other hand, who is about just as much, if not more of a victim of manipulation than Cal, and who killed only about 15 people at the end of the first season and 25-30 people at max by the end of season 2, is offered redemption only once (if the first time you\'re talking about is during Ward\'s stay at the Guest House, Coulson kept Ward there with the intention of murdering him all along, he stated so himself, \"The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use\", meaning that once Ward stopped being of use, Coulson was going to murder Ward), and the second time, Coulson only offered Ward a second chance because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye, and even then Coulson still gives Ward more grief for murdering 15-20 people than he gives Cal, who murdered at least hundreds, because those 15-20 were SHIELD agents, some of whom Coulson personally cared about, compared to Cal\'s faceless victims. As for Kara, I don\'t really recall Coulson ever offering her any sort of redemption, and Kara assaulting May, if I\'m not mistaken, only happened while she under brainwashing. Kara\'s worst crime is torturing Bobbi alongside Ward, which even then, had a sympathetic (even in unjustified in her actions) reason for it.
* No, the only one in the team who wasn\'t hesitant of the Inhumans at first at all, including Skye, was Fitz, everyone else did want to register the Inhumans, including Coulson and May. It was only later decided, with Skye as a big influence on many of the team members, such as Coulson, to not treating them as a threat.
* Not really. Coulson kept Ward imprisoned with the intention of murdering him the whole time, Fitz suffocated Ward, which yes, is a form of torture, just as much as waterboarding and suffocating someone with a plastic bag is, and Coulson sold off Ward to Christian to a manipulated trial (which is a violation of someone\'s civil right-the right to a fair trial), and I know the show kinda looks down upon this view of \"Coulson sold Ward off to his abuser\" as shown in \"Dirty Half-Dozen\", but I really dispute that mentality.
** Let me give a different example by putting different characters of an abuser-victim relationship in the same position as Ward and Christian that I really doubt people would\'ve been ok with SHIELD\'s actions-Jessica and Kilgrave. Let\'s suppose, if Jessica, after what Kilgrave did to her, became an anti-villain rather than a hero. Jessica is put in Ward\'s position, someone she loves, let\'s say Luke Cage, is dying, SHIELD are the only ones who have a cure but refuse to share it, and so Jessica reluctantly kills a few SHIELD agents to get the cure and save Luke. She is imprisoned afterwards, and while there, Coulson meets Kilgrave, and Kilgrave says that, if Coulson gives Jessica to him, Kilgrave will use his powers of voice manipulation to help SHIELD, to which Coulson agrees, and the story portrays this as okay and something Jessica totally deserves. Later on, when Jessica is on the Bus saying mistakes were made, such as \"Coulson sold me off to my rapist.\" I\'m pretty sure that if the counter-argument was \"After you killed how many people?\", no one would\'ve been okay with the logic that that somehow justifies sending someone back to their rapist.
** As for the Bobbi and Mack, I do agree that they have a point and that their crimes are less severe, and different in nature from Ward\'s crimes, so I have no problem removing that. That being said, when Ward dumped FitzSimmons into the ocean, the pod was supposed to float, as Fitz himself stated, saying that it only didn\'t because of a malfunction, which I find extremely convenient is not pointed out in later conversations. Which is not to say I don\'t believe Ward isn\'t responsible for Fitz\'s brain-damage, IMO he is since his actions did result in Fitz\'s injury, but when Bobbi is put in the same position as to how her actions affected Kara, the show treats it like Bobbi is completely not at fault, which I do believe is something of a double-standard of the show towards SHIELD.
* I actually completely agree about the Skye part, and am more than okay with removing that part.
Kara Stuff:
* No one is saying May was wrong to defend herself. The problem comes from the fact that there were multiple times when SHIELD could\'ve helped Kara, but didn\'t, especially when it\'s revealed that the cube Coulson possessed since the beginning of S2 could have tracked Kara down all along, yet he only decided to track her down when he needed her and Ward\'s help to save Skye, not to save Kara. That\'s what\'s being argued.
* Um, it kinda does that given that Koenig is an active agent of SHIELD, and that the protagonists seem to have no problem with it or call him out on it, nor the show portray Koenig in a negative light due to the fact that he is joking about a very serious predicament like that. And again, as the DesignatedHero page stated, the DesignatedHero is a \"JerkAss at best, a villain at worst\". And I\'m pretty sure the show does try to present the Koenig brothers as likable people.
* Actually, May\'s comments are meant to be seen as correct and right, just as much or even more so than Bobbi\'s. Bobbi is portrayed in a positive light due to feeling guilty over what happened to Kara, but it is ultimately May who is meant to be seen as in the right. And yes, while May may not have known about Bobbi\'s role in Kara being captured by HYDRA (which is never clarified), May did know that Kara\'s action\'s with HYDRA were the result of brainwashing, and still holds a grudge that is portrayed as justified.
* I agree that that there are many points where the protagonists call each other out on things, but there are just as many cases where there protagonists don\'t call each other out on their crimes or their flaws and double-standards are portrayed as virtues, such as the ones listed above, or, again, the case of their morals not matching their actual actions, such as Skye\'s and Coulson\'s \"SHIELD never leaves a man behind\", despite that being exactly what they did to Garrett and Kara.
The show does treat SHIELD as ultimately being unquestionably heroic, such as the question of his leadership. Yes Coulson\'s leadership is questioned, but rarely do those questioning ever stick, and a good most of the time, Coulson is treated as being right about his leadership in the end or all along, with the people who questioned him being portrayed as either being grey characters or in the wrong to have ever doubted him.
That being said, the above proper has raised some fairly legit points about the entry that I\'m willing to change.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
to:
Replying to the above topics. And also stating that like the above troper, it\'s been a while since I\'ve seen the show.
* I agree, it is a huge mess to read, so reducing it can be something done.
* Second, um, SHIELD did cut a deal with Christian to have Ward executed in an manipulated trial, worked with the ATCU, and were in favor of registering the Inhumans before they found out about Skye\'s connection to them, with that playing a *huge* role in why they decided not to register them.
* They only investigated the ATCU for corruption when and because they weren\'t okay with letting them take Daisy rather than any actual legitimate reason, and being portrayed as being in the right is a case of flawed morality.
* Um, yes it did. The whole first season was about Coulson saying \"Sometimes it\'s not a bad seed, just a bad influence/Nobody\'s nobody/You can save someone from themselves if you get to them early enough/Whether it\'s one man or all of mankind, SHIELD believes everyone is worth saving\". Like you said, many did try some harm to the group, but in the cases where redemption was rarely offered, it was only towards people whose actions actually brought lasting physical harm to SHIELD, even if others are guilty of much worse towards other parties.
** Ex: Skye, was a hacker, didn\'t actually cause any damage aside from lying; Deathlok, again, attacked them, but didn\'t cause any damage to SHIELD at the time; and Cal, who, among other things, killed an entire village in a single night and then spent the next 25 years butchering people just because he was angry, \"is called a victim of manipulation\", and is portrayed in a positive light when asked about his victims by Jaiying because, as Cal stated, he \"Never killed a SHIELD agent, only people\", and is offered aid at least twice by Coulson, such as when \"saving\" him from Whitehall and the second time at in the S2 finale. Ward, on the other hand, who is about just as much, if not more of a victim of manipulation than Cal, and who killed only about 15 people at the end of the first season and 25-30 people at max by the end of season 2, is offered redemption only once (if the first time you\'re talking about is during Ward\'s stay at the Guest House, Coulson kept Ward there with the intention of murdering him all along, he stated so himself, \"The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use\", meaning that once Ward stopped being of use, Coulson was going to murder Ward), and the second time, Coulson only offered Ward a second chance because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye, and even then Coulson still gives Ward more grief for murdering 15-20 people than he gives Cal, who murdered at least hundreds, because those 15-20 were SHIELD agents, some of whom Coulson personally cared about, compared to Cal\'s faceless victims. As for Kara, I don\'t really recall Coulson ever offering her any sort of redemption, and Kara assaulting May, if I\'m not mistaken, only happened while she under brainwashing. Kara\'s worst crime is torturing Bobbi alongside Ward, which even then, had a sympathetic (even in unjustified in her actions) reason for it.
* No, the only one in the team who wasn\'t hesitant of the Inhumans at first at all, including Skye, was Fitz, everyone else did want to register the Inhumans, including Coulson and May. It was only later decided, with Skye as a big influence on many of the team members, such as Coulson, to not treating them as a threat.
* Not really. Coulson kept Ward imprisoned with the intention of murdering him the whole time, Fitz suffocated Ward, which yes, is a form of torture, just as much as waterboarding and suffocating someone with a plastic bag is, and Coulson sold off Ward to Christian to a manipulated trial (which is a violation of someone\'s civil right-the right to a fair trial), and I know the show kinda looks down upon this view of \"Coulson sold Ward off to his abuser\" as shown in \"Dirty Half-Dozen\", but I really dispute that mentality.
Let me give a different example by putting different characters of an abuser-victim relationship in the same position as Ward and Christian that I really doubt people would\'ve been ok with SHIELD\'s actions-Jessica and Kilgrave.
Let\'s suppose, if Jessica, after what Kilgrave did to her, became an anti-villain rather than a hero. Jessica is put in Ward\'s position, someone she loves, let\'s say Luke Cage, is dying, SHIELD are the only ones who have a cure but refuse to share it, and so Jessica reluctantly kills a few SHIELD agents to get the cure and save Luke. She is imprisoned afterwards, and while there, Coulson meets Kilgrave, and Kilgrave says that, if Coulson gives Jessica to him, Kilgrave will use his powers of voice manipulation to help SHIELD, to which Coulson agrees, and the story portrays this as okay and something Jessica totally deserves. Later on, when Jessica is on the Bus saying mistakes were made, such as \"Coulson sold me off to my rapist.\" I\'m pretty sure that if the counter-argument was \"After you killed how many people?\", no one would\'ve been okay with the logic that that somehow justifies sending someone back to their rapist.
** As for the Bobbi and Mack, I do agree that they have a point and that their crimes are less severe, and different in nature from Ward\'s crimes, so I have no problem removing that. That being said, when Ward dumped FitzSimmons into the ocean, the pod was supposed to float, as Fitz himself stated, saying that it only didn\'t because of a malfunction, which I find extremely convenient is not pointed out in later conversations. Which is not to say I don\'t believe Ward isn\'t responsible for Fitz\'s brain-damage, IMO he is since his actions did result in Fitz\'s injury, but when Bobbi is put in the same position as to how her actions affected Kara, the show treats it like Bobbi is completely not at fault, which I do believe is something of a double-standard of the show towards SHIELD.
* I actually completely agree about the Skye part, and am more than okay with removing that part.
Kara Stuff:
* No one is saying May was wrong to defend herself. The problem comes from the fact that there were multiple times when SHIELD could\'ve helped Kara, but didn\'t, especially when it\'s revealed that the cube Coulson possessed since the beginning of S2 could have tracked Kara down all along, yet he only decided to track her down when he needed her and Ward\'s help to save Skye, not to save Kara. That\'s what\'s being argued.
* Um, it kinda does that given that Koenig is an active agent of SHIELD, and that the protagonists seem to have no problem with it or call him out on it, nor the show portray Koenig in a negative light due to the fact that he is joking about a very serious predicament like that. And again, as the DesignatedHero page stated, the DesignatedHero is a \"JerkAss at best, a villain at worst\". And I\'m pretty sure the show does try to present the Koenig brothers as likable people.
* Actually, May\'s comments are meant to be seen as correct and right, just as much or even more so than Bobbi\'s. Bobbi is portrayed in a positive light due to feeling guilty over what happened to Kara, but it is ultimately May who is meant to be seen as in the right. And yes, while May may not have known about Bobbi\'s role in Kara being captured by HYDRA (which is never clarified), May did know that Kara\'s action\'s with HYDRA were the result of brainwashing, and still holds a grudge that is portrayed as justified.
* I agree that that there are many points where the protagonists call each other out on things, but there are just as many cases where there protagonists don\'t call each other out on their crimes or their flaws and double-standards are portrayed as virtues, such as the ones listed above, or, again, the case of their morals not matching their actual actions, such as Skye\'s and Coulson\'s \"SHIELD never leaves a man behind\", despite that being exactly what they did to Garrett and Kara.
The show does treat SHIELD as ultimately being unquestionably heroic, such as the question of his leadership. Yes Coulson\'s leadership is questioned, but rarely do those questioning ever stick, and a good most of the time, Coulson is treated as being right about his leadership in the end or all along, with the people who questioned him being portrayed as either being grey characters or in the wrong to have ever doubted him.
That being said, the above proper has raised some fairly legit points about the entry that I\'m willing to change.
* I agree, it is a huge mess to read, so reducing it can be something done.
* Second, um, SHIELD did cut a deal with Christian to have Ward executed in an manipulated trial, worked with the ATCU, and were in favor of registering the Inhumans before they found out about Skye\'s connection to them, with that playing a *huge* role in why they decided not to register them.
* They only investigated the ATCU for corruption when and because they weren\'t okay with letting them take Daisy rather than any actual legitimate reason, and being portrayed as being in the right is a case of flawed morality.
* Um, yes it did. The whole first season was about Coulson saying \"Sometimes it\'s not a bad seed, just a bad influence/Nobody\'s nobody/You can save someone from themselves if you get to them early enough/Whether it\'s one man or all of mankind, SHIELD believes everyone is worth saving\". Like you said, many did try some harm to the group, but in the cases where redemption was rarely offered, it was only towards people whose actions actually brought lasting physical harm to SHIELD, even if others are guilty of much worse towards other parties.
** Ex: Skye, was a hacker, didn\'t actually cause any damage aside from lying; Deathlok, again, attacked them, but didn\'t cause any damage to SHIELD at the time; and Cal, who, among other things, killed an entire village in a single night and then spent the next 25 years butchering people just because he was angry, \"is called a victim of manipulation\", and is portrayed in a positive light when asked about his victims by Jaiying because, as Cal stated, he \"Never killed a SHIELD agent, only people\", and is offered aid at least twice by Coulson, such as when \"saving\" him from Whitehall and the second time at in the S2 finale. Ward, on the other hand, who is about just as much, if not more of a victim of manipulation than Cal, and who killed only about 15 people at the end of the first season and 25-30 people at max by the end of season 2, is offered redemption only once (if the first time you\'re talking about is during Ward\'s stay at the Guest House, Coulson kept Ward there with the intention of murdering him all along, he stated so himself, \"The only reason we kept you alive is because you were of use\", meaning that once Ward stopped being of use, Coulson was going to murder Ward), and the second time, Coulson only offered Ward a second chance because he needed Ward\'s help to save Skye, and even then Coulson still gives Ward more grief for murdering 15-20 people than he gives Cal, who murdered at least hundreds, because those 15-20 were SHIELD agents, some of whom Coulson personally cared about, compared to Cal\'s faceless victims. As for Kara, I don\'t really recall Coulson ever offering her any sort of redemption, and Kara assaulting May, if I\'m not mistaken, only happened while she under brainwashing. Kara\'s worst crime is torturing Bobbi alongside Ward, which even then, had a sympathetic (even in unjustified in her actions) reason for it.
* No, the only one in the team who wasn\'t hesitant of the Inhumans at first at all, including Skye, was Fitz, everyone else did want to register the Inhumans, including Coulson and May. It was only later decided, with Skye as a big influence on many of the team members, such as Coulson, to not treating them as a threat.
* Not really. Coulson kept Ward imprisoned with the intention of murdering him the whole time, Fitz suffocated Ward, which yes, is a form of torture, just as much as waterboarding and suffocating someone with a plastic bag is, and Coulson sold off Ward to Christian to a manipulated trial (which is a violation of someone\'s civil right-the right to a fair trial), and I know the show kinda looks down upon this view of \"Coulson sold Ward off to his abuser\" as shown in \"Dirty Half-Dozen\", but I really dispute that mentality.
Let me give a different example by putting different characters of an abuser-victim relationship in the same position as Ward and Christian that I really doubt people would\'ve been ok with SHIELD\'s actions-Jessica and Kilgrave.
Let\'s suppose, if Jessica, after what Kilgrave did to her, became an anti-villain rather than a hero. Jessica is put in Ward\'s position, someone she loves, let\'s say Luke Cage, is dying, SHIELD are the only ones who have a cure but refuse to share it, and so Jessica reluctantly kills a few SHIELD agents to get the cure and save Luke. She is imprisoned afterwards, and while there, Coulson meets Kilgrave, and Kilgrave says that, if Coulson gives Jessica to him, Kilgrave will use his powers of voice manipulation to help SHIELD, to which Coulson agrees, and the story portrays this as okay and something Jessica totally deserves. Later on, when Jessica is on the Bus saying mistakes were made, such as \"Coulson sold me off to my rapist.\" I\'m pretty sure that if the counter-argument was \"After you killed how many people?\", no one would\'ve been okay with the logic that that somehow justifies sending someone back to their rapist.
** As for the Bobbi and Mack, I do agree that they have a point and that their crimes are less severe, and different in nature from Ward\'s crimes, so I have no problem removing that. That being said, when Ward dumped FitzSimmons into the ocean, the pod was supposed to float, as Fitz himself stated, saying that it only didn\'t because of a malfunction, which I find extremely convenient is not pointed out in later conversations. Which is not to say I don\'t believe Ward isn\'t responsible for Fitz\'s brain-damage, IMO he is since his actions did result in Fitz\'s injury, but when Bobbi is put in the same position as to how her actions affected Kara, the show treats it like Bobbi is completely not at fault, which I do believe is something of a double-standard of the show towards SHIELD.
* I actually completely agree about the Skye part, and am more than okay with removing that part.
Kara Stuff:
* No one is saying May was wrong to defend herself. The problem comes from the fact that there were multiple times when SHIELD could\'ve helped Kara, but didn\'t, especially when it\'s revealed that the cube Coulson possessed since the beginning of S2 could have tracked Kara down all along, yet he only decided to track her down when he needed her and Ward\'s help to save Skye, not to save Kara. That\'s what\'s being argued.
* Um, it kinda does that given that Koenig is an active agent of SHIELD, and that the protagonists seem to have no problem with it or call him out on it, nor the show portray Koenig in a negative light due to the fact that he is joking about a very serious predicament like that. And again, as the DesignatedHero page stated, the DesignatedHero is a \"JerkAss at best, a villain at worst\". And I\'m pretty sure the show does try to present the Koenig brothers as likable people.
* Actually, May\'s comments are meant to be seen as correct and right, just as much or even more so than Bobbi\'s. Bobbi is portrayed in a positive light due to feeling guilty over what happened to Kara, but it is ultimately May who is meant to be seen as in the right. And yes, while May may not have known about Bobbi\'s role in Kara being captured by HYDRA (which is never clarified), May did know that Kara\'s action\'s with HYDRA were the result of brainwashing, and still holds a grudge that is portrayed as justified.
* I agree that that there are many points where the protagonists call each other out on things, but there are just as many cases where there protagonists don\'t call each other out on their crimes or their flaws and double-standards are portrayed as virtues, such as the ones listed above, or, again, the case of their morals not matching their actual actions, such as Skye\'s and Coulson\'s \"SHIELD never leaves a man behind\", despite that being exactly what they did to Garrett and Kara.
The show does treat SHIELD as ultimately being unquestionably heroic, such as the question of his leadership. Yes Coulson\'s leadership is questioned, but rarely do those questioning ever stick, and a good most of the time, Coulson is treated as being right about his leadership in the end or all along, with the people who questioned him being portrayed as either being grey characters or in the wrong to have ever doubted him.
That being said, the above proper has raised some fairly legit points about the entry that I\'m willing to change.
