Shin Megami Tensei Series

I hated how I think Nocturne, SJ and some other games all used different terms for their ultimate damage techniques.

I think Nocturne called it Mega damage? Eventually at some point they settled on Severe.

"mega" gets used in at least 3 games I've seen, so that stuck for a bit. Expel and Force are the ones that are a tad unintuitive for newcomers as meaning Wind and Light, respectively.

You mean Light and Wind, respectively.

(gets HP cut in half)

(dies to subsequent Wind)

So, upon reaching Ikebukuro in Nocturne. There is something I am now wondering...

Does the game use an invisible point system (like SMT 1 and 2) that determines which ending you get? As there is this Oni that gives the Demifiend a question that once you answer, it sticks and he doesn't ask it again like the other NP Cs so far. It would be a pretty nasty surprise if I ended up with an ending I didn't want by complete accident.

Edited by dood9780 on May 19th 2021 at 9:09:50 AM

Yes, though there are really blatant questions that grant certain points towards the alignments in story cutscenes, NPCs with those kind of questions are really minor compared to those. Also the Freedom ending only requires answering two questions during explicit story cutscenes IIRC.

I heard the occasional demon questions you can get during Negotiations can also give you points towards an ending.

Edited by Nikkolas on May 19th 2021 at 10:07:36 AM

I had the hunch that it indeed was the case, but its pretty good to have an actual confirmation.

So Red Turban Leader this is all massive Nocturne spoiler talk

https://www.reddit.com/r/Megaten/comments/ngnrer/reviewed_smt_3_hd_pc_for_christcenteredgamer_my/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

I've always been very confused about the Nocturne cosmology with Lucifer mentioning the Great Will and some saying he meant YH Vh. This person seems to be saying YHVH doesn't even really exist in Nocturne, Kagutsuchi is the YHVH equivalent. More importantly, Kags serves the typical YHVH role of being supreme dickhead while the Great Will is its usual benevolent True God self.

Just wanna know what you all think.

...Since when was the Great Will benevolent?

Apocalypse. If you think the Great Will and the Axiom are one and the same.

Which... I thought they weren't?

No, those two are not the same. The Great Will does not show up in Apocalypse at all.

Interestingly, the Great Will does get mentioned in one of the more recent games, but said mention doesn't really paint it as benevolent.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 19th 2021 at 10:22:31 AM

I always heard they were the same thing. Why aren't they?

The true god who runs everything above YHVH defines them both, no?

And what's the more recent mention?

Edited by Nikkolas on May 19th 2021 at 10:23:39 AM

They're not. The Great Will in Japanese has always been referred to as 大いなる意思. The Axiom is referred to as 大いなる理. 意思 and 理 have different meanings.

The Axiom is also presented as less of a god and more of a cosmic force that even gods must obey. The definition of an axiom is, after all, "a universally accepted principle or rule."

As for the most recent game it was mentioned in, that would be Strange Journey Redux. It's only mentioned very briefly, where (spoilering just in case) Shekinah laments her failure to "guide the world."

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 19th 2021 at 10:30:01 AM

Now I think on it. I remember it's mentioned by a random demon in the WOG, too. I took a screencap!◊

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

But the central point seems to be the Great Will is not synonymous with YHVH or Kagutsuchi. Maybe it isn't benevolent but it isn't the ultimate malevolence like them, either.

Nocturne Lucy might just be full of shit about that.

Edited by Nikkolas on May 19th 2021 at 10:34:37 AM

A reason that Kagutsuchi seems to be linked to YHVH can be seen in this artist comment from Kaneko, because otherwise it comes off as a weird non-sequitur. (Source)

Since the translation was updated, might as well wait until the context in which the Great Will is mentioned in the script in the HD version gets uploaded for comparison and stuff

I remember when, many years ago, I first heard of Nocturne and wondered if "Great Will" was supposed to be a way to reference YHVH without actually saying YHVH, in the "We can't get away with calling him God, so we gave him a title to appease the censors" sense.

Years later, I saw some clips of the Japanese version. Turned out 大いなる意思 was in the script, so the script always meant to say "Great Will."

Edited by dragonfire5000 on May 20th 2021 at 7:59:53 AM

Kagutsuchi is also not the first Japanese God = YHVH.

Hachiman the God of Samurai is also supposed to be YHVH. So hes designed as YHVH+body

It really is irritating, and this is something I've noted since my first playthrough, how much more plot there is in the Labyrinth of Amala than in Nocturne proper. Whatever new info we get from the translation will be in the LOA, from the infodumps you get between Kalpas or from the souls there.

But I ain't doing that shit again because the Labyrinth of Amala sucks. After Raidou killed me before I could even get a turn, and right after I did his stupid tag puzzle I swore off that dungeon. So hopefully some kind YT souls will make helpful compilations of the cutscenes or relevant material.

Or I guess I could do a Merciful run just for the plot.... That could be the best use of the Mercful difficulty for me. Glad I remembered that. That'll have to wait, though.

Edited by Nikkolas on May 20th 2021 at 12:07:24 PM

One of the things I'm most excited for with Nocturne HD is seeing videos and reading reports of the first encounters with a certain skeleton man.

That fight is not just a good boss, it's a peak moment of Nocturne's atmosphere. You are a baby demon, he calls you a baby demon, you feel like a baby demon in his presence. It's great.

I was trying to think of similar bosses in other SMT games. I know a lot of people compare him and Minotaur but Minotaur is hard because your allies are so worthless they sabotage you. No, a better comparison is IVA'S Sukuna-Hikona. That is the first real boss which will challenge you and make sure you understand the mechanics. You also have had enough time and demons by this point to build a real custom team to fight him. And there ain't no low level draining or voiding demons in IVA like with Nocturne. Jack Frost only Resists Ice and God that makes all the difference.

And...now I think on it, SJ doesn't really have a wake-up call boss that I can think of. It kinda just throws you into the deep end right away I feel like. Ouroboros is of course a significant hurdle but she's way too far in the game to count as a wake-up call. She's just really hard. I dunno, I just didn't feel like any boss in my last run was "make sure you are fucking prepared for this" before her.

That said, Nocturne has hilarious instances of boss cheese. Like the early Troll, who'd normally kick your ass at this point with strong attacks. Except he's completely helpless against Charm. Or using the game's borked accuracy calculations to fuck over many enemies with debuffs. In contrast, you can play all of DDS and never upgrade Serph's Agility once, and he'll still hit half the time.

I never knew that about Troll.

I think Orias could sort of count as Strange Journey's Wake-Up Call Boss? Despite the fact that he has no special moves, is just a mini-boss, and is fought at the very start of the game he can easily run rampant over your party if you're not throwing out healing items constantly and if you're Chaos-aligned somehow you won't even be able to pull off any co-op attacks.

I mean, it would make sense, given he's the one who kills Gore

With a cheap shot, might I add. Gore Shrek’d him the entire time his guard was up.