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Oct 31st 2021 at 1:28:06 AM

Raul gets some criticism because of his general okayness with Caesar's Legion. Which is dissonant given he's a vigilante folk hero. I like to headcanon he's only okay because he knows its going to collapse the moment Caesar drops dead. He takes the long view of things.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 31st 2021 at 2:42:45 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Oct 31st 2021 at 4:33:34 AM

[up] I personally think that he's never actually spent much time in Legion territory and has heard about them making their lands safer from other sources. This mixed with his own past trauma affects his judgment with them.

Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Oct 31st 2021 at 9:37:59 AM

When your only choices are death or order with a chance of death, people will choose the latter every time.

Or would you tell the folks of the Capital Wasteland that being eaten by Super Mutants is better than Caesar's rule? Raul's account of pre-Caesar Arizona sounds a lot like the CW, honestly. Can't walk a step without tripping over bandits and raiders.

Edited by Nikkolas on Oct 31st 2021 at 9:40:38 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Oct 31st 2021 at 9:43:58 AM

Raul has seen true horror, unlike anybody posting here.

What a weird argument to use, not only is this is bizarrely defensive it's also morally untenable.

"Seeing true horror" does not justify any position. Germans who lived through WW 1 and then the chaos of Weimar Germany saw some shit but that doesn't make their decision to flock to the Nazi Party any less contemptible. Same with people who experienced the chaos of post-American occupation Iraq who supported Daesh.

It's one thing to argue that we should recognize the context to understand why people behave the way they do, but that most certainly does not absolve them of any kind of moral responsibility or justify their behavior. At a certain point "I just want order" does not justify backing a horrific regime, Caesar's Legion is not just bog-standard authoritarianism. They're ultra-reactionary monsters who belong in the company of Naizsm and Daesh, no one should support them.

Edit: Oh, you edited your post. Eh, the point stands.

Edit 2: Raul's backstory makes his tolerance of the Legion even more ironic, dude is so outraged by bandits raping a woman he was friends with but he supports the people who regularly rape female slaves and use them as broodmares? The hypocrisy is almost funny.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Oct 31st 2021 at 9:50:20 AM

Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Oct 31st 2021 at 10:23:57 AM

Do the people being tortured and living in Hell have an obligation to do "the right thing" as you define it? That's really all it amounts to.

The people of Arizona had two choices: bandits or the Legion, safety and security or total anarchy. This was nothing like Weimar Germany which was a modern European democratic state. They literally had elections where you could choose the NSDAP or others. Obviously not so for the folks in the wasteland of Arizona.

Edited by Nikkolas on Oct 31st 2021 at 10:26:15 AM

RainehDaze Fairy Dragon from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Fairy Dragon
Oct 31st 2021 at 10:26:44 AM

If Raul changed his mind after you did his quest, that would be something.

Like, if he goes back to being a costumed vigilante, that wouldn't leave much room for tolerating slaver rapist nuts.

"Something I like? …It's right in front of me. It's not good unless I say it in detail?"
Oct 31st 2021 at 10:49:31 AM

[up][up] The people stuck in Hell had every opportunity to do what is right in their lives but chose not to. But in Fallout New Vegas the people in Arizona still have a choice to overthrow the Legion or go make their own Government and eventually kick them out. And I'm sure plenty want to but either don't have the strength, the will or courage to do so.

Ultimatum Disasturbator from Swiddentown
Disasturbator
Oct 31st 2021 at 10:54:10 AM

I doubt they could fully defeat the legion wthout the backing of the NCR

An invite to my discord server and..My art blog!
RainehDaze Fairy Dragon from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Fairy Dragon
Oct 31st 2021 at 10:57:02 AM

The Legion should logically be facing the same problem the Spartans did (and that the Romans had to deal with multiple times): their entire economy is based on slavery. That tends to lead to having to put down revolts constantly rather than being free to park literally your entire military by the Grand Canyon.

Forget collapsing after the game, it should be falling apart now.

"Something I like? …It's right in front of me. It's not good unless I say it in detail?"
Oct 31st 2021 at 10:59:57 AM

Rome had to face slave revolts at least during the Republic but their economy wasn't based solely around slavery.

RainehDaze Fairy Dragon from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Fairy Dragon
Oct 31st 2021 at 11:04:31 AM

That's why Rome was parenthetical, I was mostly talking about the Spartans. But they did have enough to have three Servile Wars.

"Something I like? …It's right in front of me. It's not good unless I say it in detail?"
Oct 31st 2021 at 11:09:27 AM

Yet for the most part Sparta never really had any large slave uprisings even though they should have. Rome had the Servile Wars mainly due to lack of management over the slave-holders who often didn't feed the slaves who took up bandits which allowed them to have a somewhat decent military strength combined with at the beginning of the conflicts Rome decided to not take the slaves seriously when they could have. Yet unlike Sparta where the Slaves outnumbered them 3 to 1 Rome never had that large of a slave population except on Sicily.

RainehDaze Fairy Dragon from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Fairy Dragon
Oct 31st 2021 at 11:11:58 AM

There was at least one large one (after an earthquake) and enough of a threat of it that the whole "our citizenry is geared for war" thing was pretty much necessary.

And classical warfare was weird, so you knew they'd not be away for that long.

"Something I like? …It's right in front of me. It's not good unless I say it in detail?"
Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Oct 31st 2021 at 11:45:36 AM

Sparta had a decent period of hegemony, a longer period than the Legion has even existed, where it was the strongest Greek state. I don't see why the Legion, facing absolutely zero organized opposition of any kind before the NCR, should be crumbling right now.

"[up][up] The people stuck in Hell had every opportunity to do what is right in their lives but chose not to. But in Fallout New Vegas the people in Arizona still have a choice to overthrow the Legion or go make their own Government and eventually kick them out. And I'm sure plenty want to but either don't have the strength, the will or courage to do so."

Where does morality come from? How do these people know what's right? We often say "oh they didn't know any better" when talking about actual history - that is, after the formation of complex societies. By all accounts, Fallout is the Hobbesian nightmare of "the war of all against all" with no sense of morality whatsoever, just an endless struggle to kill and fuck over others. In a way, it's probably more brutal than our actual prehistory.

So, given the total absence of anything but violence, how do these people in Arizona know there is a morally superior option to the Legion?

RainehDaze Fairy Dragon from Scotland Relationship Status: Mu
Fairy Dragon
Oct 31st 2021 at 11:51:26 AM

Sparta had a decent period of hegemony, a longer period than the Legion has even existed, where it was the strongest Greek state. I don't see why the Legion, facing absolutely zero organized opposition of any kind before the NCR, should be crumbling right now.

Probably the part where it's withdrawn its entire command structure and the majority of its military to go park on a hostile border, whilst being even more excessively brutal. For what appears to be a period of several years.

And it's in open conflict.

"Something I like? …It's right in front of me. It's not good unless I say it in detail?"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
Oct 31st 2021 at 11:53:11 AM

Where does morality come from? How do these people know what's right? We often say "oh they didn't know any better" when talking about actual history - that is, after the formation of complex societies. By all accounts, Fallout is the Hobbesian nightmare of "the war of all against all" with no sense of morality whatsoever, just an endless struggle to kill and fuck over others. In a way, it's probably more brutal than our actual prehistory.

So, given the total absence of anything but violence, how do these people in Arizona know there is a morally superior option to the Legion?

Fallout has large numbers of people who criticize the Legion. Framing supporters as these poor lost souls who can't know any better is bullshit. Just because they had a bad situation doesn't justify supporting the harm of other people.

That people choose to focus on the non-unique perks of Legion rule (stability and absolutely nothing else) while ignoring the horrific downsides is not in fact a defense of them. It simply shows how poor their priorities were.

MisterTambourineMan The Tender of Blooms from Under a tree Relationship Status: Browsing the selection
The Tender of Blooms
Oct 31st 2021 at 12:04:32 PM

Didn't the NCR rise from similar conditions to the Legion?

Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Oct 31st 2021 at 12:08:06 PM

[up][up][up] The people of Legion territory are not helots. Sawyer has said explicitly what life is like under the Legion and it is not universal slavery. In fact, even the Legion isn't slavery in the Spartan sense since anybody who proves themselves as a slave can become a legionary of great respect and power, as opposed to remaining a terrified, helpless underclass all their lives.

So, maybe there will be revolts among the common folk of Legion territory eventually. Such things do happen almost inevitably. But it's only really been a few years since they were conquered and. once again, we are contrasting the peaceful if unfree lives under Legion rule with the murderous anarchy that came before. What came before is still fresh in everyone's minds.

FergardStratoavis A Lover, No Fighter from Heresy Relationship Status: A cockroach, nothing can kill it.
A Lover, No Fighter
Oct 31st 2021 at 12:32:57 PM

The people of Arizona had two choices: bandits or the Legion, safety and security or total anarchy. This was nothing like Weimar Germany which was a modern European democratic state. They literally had elections where you could choose the NSDAP or others.

Just because Legion was the better choice doesn't mean it was a good one... or a choice to begin with. And, to not go too deep into it, this is a laughably naive view of Interwar Germany, considering that the Nazis had a dedicated paramilitary arm to muscle others into submission long before they got into power.

anybody who proves themselves as a slave can become a legionary of great respect and power, as opposed to remaining a terrified, helpless underclass all their lives.

If by anybody you mean "a male tribal" (non-tribals, according to Sawyer, do not compose Legion's military), then yes, you can become a brainwashed drone true to Kaisar. Good for you. Hope you don't get mulched by gunfire from the other side.

When your only choices are death or order with a chance of death, people will choose the latter every time.

History is rife with hopeless last stands and "pointless" uprisings explicitly because the people in charge of the "order" were scum of the earth, or even because the inferior party did not want to be under their conquerors. Be it desperation or pride, these people existed and denying them existence is callous at best.

In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Oct 31st 2021 at 12:52:07 PM

"Just because Legion was the better choice doesn't mean it was a good one... or a choice to begin with. And, to not go too deep into it, this is a laughably naive view of Interwar Germany, considering that the Nazis had a dedicated paramilitary arm to muscle others into submission long before they got into power."

The KPD had their own thugs too. The Nazis came to power due to thoroughly political circumstances like the KPD and SPD fighting so there was no unified front against them and of course the Great Depression. These things are tied directly to being a modern state and have very little to do with the kind of brute force that reigns in a world like Fallout's wastelands

"History is rife with hopeless last stands and "pointless" uprisings explicitly because the people in charge of the "order" were scum of the earth, or even because the inferior party did not want to be under their conquerors. Be it desperation or pride, these people existed and denying them existence is callous at best."

There are exceptions to every rule. But fair enough.

Edited by Nikkolas on Oct 31st 2021 at 12:53:37 PM

Oct 31st 2021 at 2:45:52 PM

Josh Sawyer and Avelone are pretty clear the Legion is actually utterly terrible. Its Repressive, but Efficient argument is undercut by the fact it is efficient at conquest, crushing societies, and slavery. But I think the people of Arizona are definitely going to say life is better.

Because, of course, the Legion is watching.

Mind you, I am reminded a bit of relatives who'd heard grand things about the Soviet Union and were annoyed by meeting our other relatives who'd escaped.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 31st 2021 at 2:46:45 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Despite everything, it's still you from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Despite everything, it's still you
Oct 31st 2021 at 4:53:31 PM

The Legion basically takes the role of the Enclave in NV as the completely morally indefensible faction since the Enclave has been reduced to a near non-entity after the destruction of the Oil Rig and Raven Rock. Except you have the option of playing as the Legion.

The likes of the Enclave and the Legion remind us that even in a ruined world like the Fallout setting where morals have become grayer due to the desperate struggle for survival, some things remain beyond the pale. Some things that were horrible before the fall are still horrible.

War never changes.

Edited by M84 on Oct 31st 2021 at 7:56:55 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Oct 31st 2021 at 5:09:42 PM

I think someone asked why the Legion was playable and Sawyer said, "Basically because people should have the option in Fallout to be utterly evil. Fans also complained about not being able to play Enclave in Fallout 3."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Oct 31st 2021 at 5:30:23 PM

Of course, then we had the FO 4 Brotherhood who have no shortage of defenders because pew pew and power armor.

Oct 31st 2021 at 5:36:28 PM

[up] I dislike the the Fallout 4 Brotherhood but they are nowhere near as bad as either the Legion or the Enclave (not yet anyway).


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