World Of Warcraft

The final chapter of the War Campaign will probably be available when Season 2 drops on the 22nd given that it's a direct handoff to the raid itself.

If I am reading the requirements correctly, you will not have to complete the raid in order to unlock Kul Tiran/Zandalari. Currently the Allied Races requires the "Tides of Vengeance" achievement^note in addition to exalted with Proudmoore Admiralty/Zandalari Empire, and the Pride of Kul Tiras/Zandalar Forever achievements, which is granted just before you are directed to enter the raid.

This means that unless the requirements change, you don't need to worry about the possibility of the final LFR wing not opening in time for 8.1.5 if you aren't into serious raiding.

Well that was quite a dev stream. I'm not actually sure how to describe it aside as about one hour of two devs patting themselves in the back for doing an awesome job and mentionning that everything they did was cool.

so business as usual for current Blizzard, really.

The discussion was a lot more abstract and technical then what a lot of people were expecting. It was less about the story being told and more about the nuts and bolts of how they tell stories if that makes any sense.

Which is fine, but I do think they could of done a better job communicating that. You don't want to sign up for a book club and unexpectedly find yourself in a writer's workshop.

I only figured that's what we were getting because Blizzard Watch pointed out that it wasn't technically being advertised as a QA and they had Terran Gregory (who isn't a writer) as a participant.

I mean sure, but most of what they did was kind of go "We did that thing, it was pretty cool. Some other thing happened that was cool. And the story has been going in a cool direction too, we feel. Also that character we think is cool is there, so that's cool." I'm exaggerating a bit, but they didn't exactly say anything particularly meaningful during that stream.

Sincere question since I don't usually tune into these things: What was the expectation going in to this developing stream?

Before Blizz precised it wasn't a Q&A, people thought it was that. Afterwards, people thought they would talk about the current story and how it was received by the playerbase and how they intended to fix that perception. Basing myself on the story forums and Discord of the Wo W forums, in any case.

The current story is awesome and I can't wait for more of it. I can't think of any expansion that's given us clearer investment in the characters, save possibly Legion.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:52:00 PM

Oh look, an alliance player.

Cry more, Horde player.

I honestly find the Horde side more compelling. Alliance is just Jaina's reconciliation with get family and fun with the Rambo expy.

Edited by sgamer82 on Jan 10th 2019 at 1:56:56 PM

Honestly, I agree. The Horde has an awesome story. I've been playing through it on an alt. I just find the tears of people complaining about it incredibly satisfying.

Edited by Fighteer on Jan 10th 2019 at 3:55:38 PM

Since when does liking the story requires being an Alliance player? I mean, I'm one, if my avatar did not make it clear, but I friggin' hate this expansion's storyline. And I've seen plenty of Horde players who enjoy it because they kill Alliance and doesn't afraid of anything. Anyone can enjoy or hate it.

The complaints I mostly hear about the story of Battle for Azeroth seem to be based on the fact that a lot of players have built up a kind of fan fiction in their minds about how the characters are supposed to act, and are disappointed when Blizzard takes them in a different direction.

One thing I've noticed is that people who overwhelmingly play one faction can run into the whole "grass is greener on the other side" fallacy.

Just because there's technical variables that you can point to that are stronger on one faction verse the other, doesn't mean the story is actually enjoyable on the "stronger" faction.

Take Mists of Pandaria for example. Something that often gets lost when we tally up the number of characters lost is that the actual experience of playing Alliance wasn't all that enjoyable. Sure characters didn't die^note casualties of the bombing of Theramore excepted of course...they just got their characterization derailed to make Varian look awesome, which kind of sucked if you were more of a fan of Tyrande or Jaina then Varian. Then Varian ended the expansion with a threat that we all knew damned well that could never be followed up on in the context of WoW.

My point isn't that the Alliance were the ones really shortchanged by MoP, my point is that "a better story than the Horde" =/= an enjoyable experience. And there is few things more infuriating to be told that Blizzard has a bias towards your preferred faction when you aren't actually enjoying the end result.

As for me personally, there are things I enjoy about the Alliance story and there are things I enjoy about the Horde story. If you narrow the scope of the story to just the faction conflict, yeah I'm enjoying the Alliance side more. But even in an expansion that's nominally about the faction conflict, the story is a lot bigger then that.

Edited by Falrinn on Jan 10th 2019 at 4:57:49 AM

I've had the opposite reaction. I mean, generally speaking I don't expect much of Blizzard writing, it's always been very arch and grandiose, with surface characterization always being valued highest of all.

But Christ, the Horde war campaign so far has been turds. Mostly it's been the 'Nathanos Blightcaller calls you an asshole and berates the minion of the week' power hour, with a single stop to have an undersea corpse investigation adventure.

And all the while Lilian Voss is going along with the plan to create more Forsaken for...reasons? And Rexxar is aiding and abetting a faction involved in attempted genocide for Reasons, after an expansion where he may very well have been bodyguarding a Huntsmaster who was part of the Alliance.

And all the while it's been moustache-twirling and profiteering and like, one comedy bit where Eitrigg is scared of witches.

At least the Alliance war campaign had some kind of general progression. The Horde one feels incredibly disconnected.

I don't think this is necessarily a case of favoritism or anything, just that the Alliance had a clear objective (Dazar'alor) whereas the Horde's just been fucking around on Kul Tiras looking for a corpse.

Edited by math792d on Jan 10th 2019 at 12:39:59 PM

This expansion has killed any love I've had for Warcraft.

To me, narrowing the scope to the War Campaign is not a good way to judge the expansion.

While the expansion is nominally about the Horde vs. Alliance conflict, the fact is that if the Alliance and Horde were in a state of total peace and had a different reason to go to Kul Tiras and Zandalar, somewhere in the neighborhood of 80% of the expansion's content would be completely unchanged.

When I go to Kul Tiras on an Alliance player, between the Ashvane Company and their affiliates, the Heartsbane Coven, and the corrupted Tidesages I spend more time fighting Kul Tirans then I spend fighting the Horde. And not just a little more time, close to an order of magnitude more time.

On the Horde side it's a similar story. I'm fighting hostile Trolls easily an order of magnitude more often then I'm fighting the Alliance.

8.1 changes that to an extent, but 8.1.5 already starts rolling it back with the Naga invasions and the Crucible of Storms raid.

I guess my point is that expansions need to be judged in their totality. And how the Horde interacts with the Alliance is only a piece of the total content in BfA. And to circle back to my previous post, the experiences need to be judged independently of each other. No one cares if, by some metric, their preferred faction is better off if they aren't having an enjoyable experience.

Edited by Falrinn on Jan 10th 2019 at 11:30:53 AM

Tbh, at this point I cant say i care at all about the horde or the alliance's story. Zandalar's interesting, but if anduin and sylvanas die tommorow I cant say I'd give a shit.

The devs have already made it plainly clear the horde and alliance only exist to dash from setpiece to setpiece in a war story that doesnt even m ake sense logistically given after 12+ years of constant war there shouldnt be enough soldiers left to supply an army.

not to mention like. Whats the point? best case scenario we repeat garrosh, worst case Sylvanas does some pointless shit and gets redeemed. Eiother way its been made evident that the only role the horde ever gets to play is "excuse for the alliance to play hero"

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:40:14 AM

I'm not judging the expansion, though. I'm specifically saying that, of the two War Campaigns, I think the Alliance one is the most coherent and, while both of them are vastly inferior to the various questing zone stories and non-faction stories, they're not cut from the same cloth. I really don't see where you're inferring me judging the expansions purely from two pieces of kinda 'meh' quality content.

^ Tbh, if the war was dropped completely the expansion narrative would be just fine.

Zandalar and kul tiras are interesting content, the war is..a clusterfuck

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Jan 10th 2019 at 10:57:22 AM

I might of been a little confused by what you were responding to.

I assumed it was my post since you posted straight after mine and didn't use any "s", but all I said about the Horde side of BfA was that there's things about it I enjoyed and that specifically in the context of the Horde/Alliance conflict the Alliance has the more enjoyable story.

Which isn't incompatible with what you said even though you started your post with saying that you had the opposite reaction to the expansion. I read that as disagreeing that there's anything enjoyable about the Horde narrative, though that may of been wrong.

I will said the problem with faction war and battle of azeorth is also the order of the games.

have let said battle of azeroth play before legion then yeah I could buy it, or after pandaria with Sylvanas being choice instead of vol jin and making war to protect their terrotories.

but between almost what....three team ups? it feel forced.

Yeah, I've often felt that the Horde/Alliance conflict is a thing the franchise has outgrown. For the past few expansions, the best stories have almost all been ones that are at least somewhat detached from the conflict. Even in BfA that's the case.

Heck in spite of all the complaints about the Horde story, in my opinion some of the most enjoyable stories have involved the Horde and their Zandalari affiliates....but mostly when they aren't fighting the Alliance.^note I will make a small note in that I did like the dynamic of Lilian Voss's interactions with the Kul Tiran Forsaken, in spite of it being hard to square with her pre-BfAcharacterization.

Removed from the context of the Horde/Alliance conflict, the story of Zandalar is a fantastic story about a waning empire overrun with corruption and teetering on the brink of total collapse finding new life by forging bonds with the outside world on a level they've never before done so.

Add in the context of the Horde/Alliance conflict, and the empire that just narrowly avoided total collapse just got themselves involved in a massive global war and sided with the same people who had just committed arguably the worst atrocity in Azeroth's history.

This. ther war detracts from zandalar, not adds to it. Shit, as of 8.1 it seems largely to be an excuse plot to kill Rastakahn

the stated strategic reason for dzar\'alor makes no sense otherwise. stop the people who are on the fence about helping the horde to prevent them from joining the horde by...attacking them?

Edited by Midgetsnowman on Jan 12th 2019 at 8:30:38 AM