Persona series

Basically the existence of a multiverse and a multiversal being causing conflict means solutions restricted to one universe don't work on that being.

and

But is fighting YHVH even a worthwhile objective? Serious question.

When I played SMTIVA a few months ago now, somebody elsewhere was all for the Anarchy Route. Their thinking was that the heroes didn't really stop YHVH. He'll be back. SMTIV universe seems to operate like Persona, the supernatural beings are manifestations of human drives/desires/thoughts.

So, much like how you were keen on telling me "you didn't kill Nyarly, he's still very much there" the SMTIV heroes didn't kill YHVH. They maybe made him go away for a bit but he's still around, still ready to rule like a tyrant or destroy the universe.

Hence why the other poster was all for siding with Dagda as the only way to really keep YHVH down.

Edited by Nikkolas on Dec 17th 2018 at 7:59:14 AM

YHVH can be killed and dealt with, and there are ways to stall a Gods revival. But Nyarly and Philemon are special in Persona. They can't die and are a constant in persona. YHVH has always been capable of dying, and if backed into a corner enough YHVH will Rage Quit and/or Screw This, I'm Outta Here. And he's done that twice in the Franchise too boot.

Wait. Does that apply only to YHVH?

That seems kinda unfair. Why is he the only one who can be killed?

Gods and Demons in general but we were talking about YHVH and Philly/Nyarly specifically.

I don't get it, what's the different between YHVH and Nyarly? Humans dreamed them both up.

Yaldy was just Discount YHVH and again, was created by human desire. Unless the human desire for order goes away, YHVH and Yaldy are eternal.

Hey, thanks. :) It's nice to know my view of the series is shared by others.

Edited by Nikkolas on Dec 17th 2018 at 8:50:55 AM

I feel like i've been voicing a lot of my disagreements with Nikkolas so i'm gonna be fair and voice that his post about the existentialist thing hits on the head everything I like in Persona.

Nyarlathotep and Philemon are tied to humanity's existence, whereas Gods like YHWH can be born from humanity but also can live independently from them. This is why I feel YHWH can die and even be replaced as shown in SMT 4 Apocalypse.

Nyarly is a personifciation of mankinds worst aspects collected into one. Philemon is his opposite.

YHVH the God of Law was born of the concept of "Worship", so the nature of their existences are fundamentally different.

Just as Nyx is a constant and was a completely separate entity before causing life to be born. Her, Nyarly, and Philemon are different from a mere god who rose to become God..

YHVH dies, is reborn, and can die again. Not all beings are created equal. Not even supernatural ones.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Dec 17th 2018 at 9:04:19 AM

this is fucking eerie

So what you're saying is you could theoretically get rid of YHVH permanently by making humans forget the concept of worship but there is no way at all to get rid of Nyarly so long as human exist?

But surely YHVH is stronger than Nyarly. YHVH makes entire universes, Nyarly barely ended life on one planet. He also has rules that YHVH clearly doesn't. I guess that's the drawback of being "more immortal."

Edited by Nikkolas on Dec 17th 2018 at 9:51:22 AM

Nyarly and Philemon exist in balance so they can't overstep the other, and YHVH can only destroy entire universes when the promised time of the Conception happens. Otherwise he generally relies on human technology to destroy them. Rarely does he use his own power.

And yeah that's the difference. So long as one man lives Nyarly does. YHVH can be forgotten and with it making it harder to ever be reborn.

Assuming Nyarly really is humanity's bad side and not a preexisting entity - I think I remember that being a little ambiguous from what I've heard - then theoretically if humanity purged their bad side then he should cease to exist. Sort of like how if humanity loses their death wish then Erebus will go away and the great seal won't be needed.

But good luck with that.

Yeah if you got rid of Humanities Dark Side you get rid of their Positive Side because they are connected. Or horribly lobotimize it.

Much like removing Nyx was never an option due to the untold, very bad side effects that can happen.

With Nyx it sounds like it's truly flat out impossible. They didn't say you shouldn't do it, they said you can't.

EPP they point out not to do it with Nyarly either. If mankind wishes to evolve beyond him they have to change themselves till they become enlightened. Good needs evil and if it doesn't exist things get thrown out of whack.

K I'm no longer gonna concentrate on reading the last 2 new pages anymore.

So basically:

YHVH (and by extension Izanami, Erebus etc): You can do it, but it doesn't necessarily stick.
Nyarly: Can't really do it, and even if you did it would be a bad idea.
Nyx: Can't be done. Giant space eyeball OP.

That's it, yeah.

You can still punch Nyarly in the face and make him whine like a punk, though.

Ah the short-term victories.

Enjoy them while you can.

Honestly, I think that for Nyx one could destroy the moon at the cost of several million human lives since Nyx seems to be the moon. Acceptable losses.

Edited by CybranGeneralSturm on Dec 17th 2018 at 11:20:45 AM

Translation of the lyrics from the 4th dungeon trailer

Edited by asterism on Dec 17th 2018 at 7:30:21 PM

They say explicitly that it's not a matter of strength, implying Nyx cannot be damaged.

And also blowing up the moon would probably end all life on Earth.

Don't really care, Nyx lives/exists and therefore it can be killed/rendered non-existent. After all, Lord British Postulate is a thing.