Sid Meier's Civilization Series (Main Titles)

It's just that, once you take your religion from "an extra boost to your empire" to "how I'm going to win the game", it becomes a poor man's domination. Sure, it's easy, but it's boring.

Religious combat only has a few things that don't have a direct analogue to something in regular combat: random promotions (which can be considered a downgrade), units that produce something when they die (only if you have the Martyr promotion), the ability to "spend" your main combat units taking a city, and the AOE effect that happens when a unit dies in religious combat. I suppose the scaling cost of apostles also counts, though they aren't the only thing in the game that scales with how many you make.

Regular combat also has: ranged/siege/cavalry/anti-cavalry/naval units, experience, fortification, pillaging, unit upkeep, strategic resource requirements, aerial combat for late-game, corps and armies, the ability to out-tech your opponent, and many other facets that I'm forgetting right now.

Obviously, the religion system doesn't need to have direct analogues to all of these things (or even most of them), because regular warfare is much more the game's focus, and a lot of those mechanics wouldn't make much flavorful sense. But since their implementation of religious spread uses the same basic system, it's hard not to see religious victory as a dumbed-down version of regular combat. If religion in this game was implemented in a way that didn't emphasize slamming units into each other, I feel like it'd be much more its own thing, and would have much more ability to flesh out its systems. Though we'll likely have to wait until Civ VII for that.

Edited by IrishZombie on Aug 15th 2020 at 11:20:08 AM

I have, I wasn't really paying attention to it because I had my hands full with the other mechanics, and suddenly the game declared that an AI had won a religious victory.

What size maps do you play on? I typically play on standard size or above and there seems to be enough religions and enough space between religions for at least two to get a foothold and neither being able to get a victory.

Typically standard. I might play on a larger map if I think I can handle it, but I never go smaller than standard.

I think it was the fractal map, which wasn't that large.

This is the basic reason I've never done it or even really tried it.

It functions nigh-identically to domination, but with even more tedious steps involved to accomplish it, and I already perceive domination as rather tedious in the first place.

The most I'll typically do is make sure my neighbors share my religion, and call it a day.

There are two things about that. First, even if your neighbors share your religion, eventually the dominant religion among your non-neighbors will come knocking, and you need to be prepared to defeat them. Those units you're holding in defense might as well go on the attack, and if you've got the right policies and promotions, there's very little that can be done to stop them.

Second, while there may be diplomatic penalties to converting your opponents' cities, those penalties are not nearly as bad as conquering them, so it's a "peaceful" way to win the game, if that's your thing. At least you have to actively work for it, unlike, say, a Culture victory, where it happens as an inexorable consequence of stashing lots of art in your museums and building all the wonders, something I'm doing anyway in most games.

I've taken to disabling Culture as a victory condition in my custom games because I hate stumbling into it. Of course, there's nothing like winning a Religious victory by accident when you conquer an opponent's city that was the last one keeping them from having your religion as their majority.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2020 at 5:40:27 AM

I can't tell you how many times I've accidentally won a cultural victory while aiming for a conquest victory simply because I wiped all but one other civ out and ravage the remaining civ so badly that they have no culture left before I actually move on the capitol.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Aug 15th 2020 at 6:11:06 AM

It feels like both Cultural and Religious victories should have active steps that complement the passive steps. For example, once you meet the conditions (all civs converted, dominant culture over all civs), you have to build a Wonder to cement your rule.

It's a "peaceful" alternative, but it still functions via almost literally the same mechanics, so ultimately it is still a Domination victory that just doesn't involve literally going to war. Having the patience to do a Religious victory takes the same drive it does to do a Domination victory.

The way the AI conducts itself, having two or sometimes three Apostles on hand is usually enough to protect one's religious bonuses as long as one isn't surrounded.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 15th 2020 at 3:26:41 AM

Except there's no hassle of occupying your opponent's cities, managing Loyalty, etc.

Of course there is: pressure. Plus Religious conquest is inherently less defensible than Military conquest.

You have to "conquer" enemies in a venue that is inherently - at least at first - temporary, with units that destroy themselves after a set amount of uses, that are only usable through purchase via a limited resource (rather than being producable like military unit) and get more expensive over time, there is no way to literally defend a Religion so your units have to head enemies off at the pass in order to stop them, while dealing with the fact that cities themselves will often undo your work on their own if you don't keep their proverbial plate spinning constantly (which means constantly purchasing more units), and if you're set on "conquering" religious cities to the point where that plate spinning isn't necessary any more you might as well just go for the victory because that already requires a great deal of work.

It's far more micromanagement heavy than most of the rest of the game, while ultimately delivering the same experience as Domination, and as I prefer to spend my faith on Great People, Religious Buildings, Land Units and - depending on the Civ - District buildings, the whole thing just comes off as a hassle that drains a resource I find more use with elsewhere.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 15th 2020 at 3:36:27 AM

Well, if you put it that way. Frankly what I do is stash some Apostles with the Debater promotion around on guard duty. Whenever an opposing religious unit pops up, I smack them back down again, and that also gives a huge swing in pressure. It's more like whack-a-mole than Loyalty is. Once your War Department is online, religious combat kills heal your Apostles, so you don't even need to keep Gurus around.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2020 at 6:36:21 AM

Oh, that's another thing. Apostle upgrades are entirely random, so despite the high price tag you can't guarantee you get one with an ability you need (like Debater).

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 15th 2020 at 3:41:41 AM

Unless you get the City-State bonus that lets you pick your promotions. Speaking of, I installed a mod called Wondrous Wonders that rebalances Wonders and adds National Wonders back to the game (built in specific districts, one per civ). They're all good, but one of my favorites is the Holy Site tier-3 building that gives the choose-your-promotion bonus permanently for Apostles born in that city. Combine that with Moksha's Tier 4 promotion for double-promotion Apostles and you get these uber-beings that wreck everything.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2020 at 6:42:20 AM

To be fair, I'm sure my opinion on it would probably be less harsh if I played on smaller maps more often.

Doesn't that require that a specific city state spawn in your game, preferrably in your zone of control so that you don't have an uphill battle wresting it away from another Civ?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 15th 2020 at 3:40:43 AM

Sure. I find that the gameplay shifts dramatically depending on which City-States you get, and that's part of the fun. The newly added one that causes a burst of Religious Pressure (400 points!) when you expend a Great Person is just broken.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 15th 2020 at 6:42:07 AM

Also, I'm pretty sure that you can only have so many apostles with a specific promotion at a time. I've noticed that as I accrue more active apostles, the new ones will constantly be offered everything that I didn't choose on other apostles. In fact, the list of available promotions will shrink until I'm forced to choose, say, Chaplain (could be useful if I'm on the warpath, but if I'm on the warpath, I'm usually not making a lot of apostles) or Heathen Conversion (risk an instant kill from a barbarian so that I can get a unit I probably out-tech? I'll pass).

I had the choose-your-promotion City-State in my current game but then the Phonecians conquered it like a bunch of assholes. If I weren't such a weak military power I'd go and kick their asses.

Good news is I've got a whole bunch of Debater Apostles that I kept around at one charge left rather than spend entirely, so I'm pretty good on the combat front.

I heard that Apostles losing promotion options was a bug and was supposed to have been fixed.

Well, holy shit, actually finally got into Civ 6. Picked up my Viking game save, had no idea how I wanted to win so I'm just powering my way to a point victory. I've been pretty peaceful for the Vikings, only declared one war the whole game; leave me be and we can trade and do business. Annoy me and the invincible fleet wrecks everything. Been making great money off pillaging the primitive screwheads who refuse to leave me alone.

Which of course means Gandhi. Because he's in every game of Civ I've ever played. And he's far enough and landlocked to where an actual war isn't worth my time. We've been at war for decades because he started it and I'm not accepting "let's agree to stop fighting ".

I befriended Gilgamesh as soon as I met him, everyone else was already picking fights with me, he was the only neutral party remaining. Now we're best friends and the dominant alliance.

Edited by Rotpar on Aug 15th 2020 at 8:24:47 AM

Gilgamesh is the only AI who is fine with you declaring friendship on the first turn after meeting him or after a war. It's why I picked up the nickname Gilgabro elsewhere.

Granted, he's still betrayed me on occasion.

I blame the random agenda for that.

I've lost to an AI religious victory before. One of my first King difficulty games with 6 civs. Japan had converted half the civs, including mine, before I noticed. And I couldn't get a prophet anymore. Even though the other civs got their religions rather late too. Sweden only had one city with their religion iIrc. Only Amanitore was able to hold off Japan for a few turns by founding the last religion. But it was too little, too late.

Edited by Antiteilchen on Aug 17th 2020 at 3:31:04 PM