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Type-Moon: Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai discussion

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Unlikelyauthor2 Salty guy
Salty guy
Oct 9th 2018 at 3:06:42 PM

Which Elseworlds was that?

Technology annoys me.
OmegaRadiance Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Oct 9th 2018 at 3:22:46 PM

Sorry I put Cause when I meant IF.

Since Daji was a mass murderer indulging in pleasure for fun.

EpicBleye being this pretty makes up for everything from the moon. send help. Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
being this pretty makes up for everything
Oct 9th 2018 at 3:24:41 PM

The thing that really doesn't make sense is that Tamamo tells her whole life story. Like, her being Daji outright contradicts her being born Mizukume and serving emperor Toba (until she becomes Tamamo and is killed in the fields of Nasu).

And we know her life story isn't a lie because it's been confirmed several times over in side mats and F/GO.

Edited by EpicBleye on Oct 9th 2018 at 6:27:41 AM

"Now, as I was about to say, are you curious about my mana tanks? And if so, just how curious are you?" ~Tamamo, in a few hundred years
alekos23 Spook from Spook
Spook
Oct 9th 2018 at 3:34:19 PM

Isn't it a bunrei thing? All those big bad fox ladies beind bunreis of the big bad sun fox deity.

Spoooooook
OmegaRadiance Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Oct 9th 2018 at 3:38:13 PM

And the fox became nine different Bunrei Tamamos who are all equally monsterfoxes Tamamo.

Lets jot forget Amaterasu was around when Altera threatened the world. Long before Japan or Chinas times where Tamamo and Daji resided. Daji even predates Tamamo.

Also remember Bunreis cna also be reincarnations. The Twelve Pillars Greek/Roman Bunreis are literally them but reborn as part of Gaia as God-Robots.

EpicBleye being this pretty makes up for everything from the moon. send help. Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
being this pretty makes up for everything
Oct 9th 2018 at 3:39:07 PM

[up][up]That makes the most sense, and I'm pretty sure it's what was implied with some other mats, but for whatever reason these set of Extella mats as well as a line in Fate/GO states that they're just the same person. Which of course doesn't make much sense.

[up]I mean, Daji has to exist before Tamamo. There's no doubt about that. Tamamo could be a reincarnation of Daji, but that doesn't gel well with why Tamamo chose to be born as a human.

Edited by EpicBleye on Oct 9th 2018 at 6:41:19 AM

"Now, as I was about to say, are you curious about my mana tanks? And if so, just how curious are you?" ~Tamamo, in a few hundred years
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Oct 9th 2018 at 5:48:20 PM

Also I dont get how some of these anti-world and anti-army Noble Phantasms cap out at 1000 people. Like... what?
"Anti-World" only describes the NP as having a quality that directly affects the very underpinnings of "the world", not that the NP's attack/effect can encompass the entirety of the world/universe.

Meanwhile, "Anti-Army" simply designates an NP/attack that by its very nature is optimizednote  for combating large groups of targets (i.e. an "army" in the colloquial); it doesn't imply that the "army" in question has to be big enough to be considered a "proper" army by modern military standards (i.e. tens of thousands). Back in pre-modern times (i.e. from classical to medieval), anything from several hundred to several thousand was big enough to count as an army. And most Servants hail from this era.

Bear in mind that the Fateverse lore gives such gems as the "Anti-Country" classification, which is implied to mean "powerful enough to wreck an entire country, but cannot scale down from that level".

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 9th 2018 at 3:49:48 PM

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
EpicBleye being this pretty makes up for everything from the moon. send help. Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
being this pretty makes up for everything
Oct 9th 2018 at 5:50:02 PM

[up]What I mean is that some, if not most, of these Noble Phantasms can very clearly take on more than 1000 people.

"Now, as I was about to say, are you curious about my mana tanks? And if so, just how curious are you?" ~Tamamo, in a few hundred years
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Oct 9th 2018 at 5:52:32 PM

In which case, remember that much of those numbers are a case of Type-Moon trying to frame such stats within the context of an RPG-Mechanics Verse, i.e. the way FSN's stats were presented as being filtered through Shirou's perspective (apparently he's a fan of RPGs, or at least his thought process on such matters parallels them). Don't examine them too closely.

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 9th 2018 at 3:55:02 PM

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
JRads47 5 IN A ROW from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
5 IN A ROW
Oct 9th 2018 at 6:02:23 PM

IIRC, there was a part in Fate/Zero where Kirei was spying on Iskander during his feast and told Tokiomi he had an A-ranked NP.

Shinjuku Salter never
MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Oct 9th 2018 at 7:06:11 PM

Yeah, I know. I'm guessing that either the RPG-style descriptions proved to be unexpectedly popular with the fandom, or Type-Moon didn't know for sure but feared the potential backlash from doing away with that aspect more than the confusion that the fandom would experience from applying the originally Shirou-exclusive handwave to the rest of the franchise even when it shouldn't be applicable.

Or, instead of fear, it was just laziness/lack of creativity.

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA
vicarious
Oct 9th 2018 at 7:18:11 PM

Because it’s easy, yeah

Two statistical categories we’ve never gotten satisfactory if any explanation for is what does the range mean and overall NP status mean

Like Iskander has IH which is EX but his overall NP stat is like A+ or something so wakarimasen lol

MarqFJA Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus from Saudi Arabia Relationship Status: Shipping fictional characters
Fiat justitia, et pereat mundus
Oct 9th 2018 at 7:47:16 PM

A++, actually.

The Type-Moon Wiki has translations of the Parameter Rules' explanations in the supplemental materials, BTW. Complete with citations, too.

EX just denotes "something that falls outside of the numerical ranking scale, a value that cannot be quantified under the normal system because it is in a league of its own, powerful to the extent of rendering comparisons meaningless."

As for the NP stat rank discrepancy, "[w]hile the ranking will often match their strongest Noble Phantasm, it will sometimes only reflect a secondary Noble Phantasm, or display a ranking higher or lower than their available wares."

My guess is that the devil is in the details; something or the other about the NP and/or the Servant's other abilities/traits may affect the actual rank of the NP stat, for better or worse. Iskandar's Aionion Hetairoi, for example, is technically rated EX owing to being a Reality Marble that summons an entire army within its bounds, but if enough of said army's members are killed (about half, IIRC), the whole thing collapses and Iskandar will be forced to fight alone (on Bucephalus, if said steed is still alive). So basically, the NP stat reflects both the raw power of the Servant's NP(s) and said NP(s)' actual utility for the Servant.

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 9th 2018 at 5:57:38 PM

When we are crushing the black hearts of our oppressors, we will find our hands blackened.
JRads47 5 IN A ROW from my point of view, the Jedi are evil!
5 IN A ROW
EpicBleye being this pretty makes up for everything from the moon. send help. Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
being this pretty makes up for everything
Oct 9th 2018 at 9:52:48 PM

I feel like I've seen most of this before.

Also, I really want to know what Archer's timeline was like. According to that post it seems like Saber's summon in his timeline was similar to F/SN's summon? Or the opposite? The post isn't clear on that.

Also there's no possibly about it [lol] It's just a straight confirmation

Edited by EpicBleye on Oct 9th 2018 at 12:53:40 PM

"Now, as I was about to say, are you curious about my mana tanks? And if so, just how curious are you?" ~Tamamo, in a few hundred years
Oct 9th 2018 at 9:54:38 PM

Hey, who says it was Shirou's perception? Maybe it's you the reader who perceives the abilities of Servants in RPG format!

OmegaRadiance Relationship Status: All is for my lord
Oct 9th 2018 at 10:27:11 PM

I thought it was obvious Tokiomi didn't give a shit so long as his family could reach the Root. Only thing needed clarifying is that he's fine with bugs defiling her as long as the one doing it doesn't try to make her a meatsuit.

EpicBleye being this pretty makes up for everything from the moon. send help. Relationship Status: Faithful to 2D
being this pretty makes up for everything
Oct 9th 2018 at 10:40:45 PM

I wouldn't exactly take Urobuchi's word to heart. He's only one half of the two main writers on Zero, and Nasu seems to have been less cynical towards Tokiomi's intentions.

Like, I love Urobuchi's works and all, but this is the same dude that made an even darker story than Fate/Zero was for the Accel Zero Order event in F/GO... where it was supposed to be a power fantasy/fix-fic/good outcome type of deal. He's always going to go with the worst version of events.

That said Tokiomi's a dick and he fucking sucks

Edited by EpicBleye on Oct 9th 2018 at 1:44:35 PM

"Now, as I was about to say, are you curious about my mana tanks? And if so, just how curious are you?" ~Tamamo, in a few hundred years
Nouct internally_screaming.exe from No longer in the superior time zone Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
internally_screaming.exe
Oct 9th 2018 at 11:28:28 PM

wait hold on Extella Link's switch port having English subs, does this mean that the PS4 version's gonna have a similar release window since IIRC Extella's Switch port had the same option and that just used XSEED's script

Edited by Nouct on Oct 9th 2018 at 11:27:52 AM

Moving forward, bit by bit
VeryMelon THE Cool Old Guy from United States Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
Oct 10th 2018 at 5:00:22 AM

I'm not surprised Tokiomi didn't care. He's a very typical magus to the core, and it showed.

Mr. McMahon reacts to Marvel's Phase 3 line-up
Kakuzan All the stars are closer. from Miami Relationship Status: What is this thing you call love?
All the stars are closer.
Oct 10th 2018 at 6:00:25 AM

I was always under the impression that he was unaware what the "training" entailed since I couldn't believe that he would be that horrible of a father. But it looks I was dead wrong. And yeah I already know about magus society being harsh, I just thought that Tokiomi wasn't on that same level of callousness.

Edit: I'm having a hard time reading those Extella scans. For the height and weight, I'm gonna guess that they are incredibly low for some reason. Never understood why some writers are obsessed with short statures and small frames.

Edited by Kakuzan on Oct 10th 2018 at 9:02:16 AM

Thanks, I hate it.
Nouct internally_screaming.exe from No longer in the superior time zone Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
internally_screaming.exe
Oct 10th 2018 at 6:27:15 AM

Moreover, the protection of the Tōsaka house can only be endowed on one of them. This fact tormented Tokiomi for a long time. The one who did not become the inheritor would get mired in all kinds of odd events due to her own blood, and trouble bound to find her. If the Association found this kind of ‘ordinary human’, those guys would definitely gladly put her in formaldehyde as a specimen in the name of ‘protection’.

Having only read the novels, I can only assume ufotable are COWARDS and didn't show any imagery of Sakura in formaldehyde.

Moving forward, bit by bit
Oct 10th 2018 at 6:49:44 AM

That interview is pretty old, but it's nice that we're all on the same page now. And yes, unless Nasu disagrees with Urobutcher, Tokiomi can be written down as total pos. He makes Kayneth look good, for crying out loud.

Unlikelyauthor2 Salty guy
Salty guy
Oct 10th 2018 at 8:11:21 AM

Something tells me if Kayneth had children you'd disagree.

Technology annoys me.
Oct 10th 2018 at 8:52:45 AM

Thanks to Kiritsugu, we'll never know. What we do know is that Kayneth sacraficed his last hope to save Sola. Love truly is blind.

Man, I would love to see slice of life series about those two: their crumbling marriage, horrible midlife crisis, strugling with their crippling debts and goal of their union, little baby Archibald, falling head over heels for her favorite teacher - Vaver.


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