And yet she feels less shoehorned in than she felt in Daredevil. At least to me.
Also, I read a few opinions stating that Karen was initially interested in the Punisher story because she killed a person herself and subconciously wanted to excuse her actions. That couldn't be remedied by Matt telling her the truth.
- I don't remember any marketing promoting "a ship". They promoted the connection between Frank and Karen, yes, but they never said it was a romantic connection. Heck, the official "Punisher" twitter account even said their kiss is "never going to happen". 2. If they were promoting a ship, they would do it to please a large, significant part of the fandom. No one would promote an unpopular ship, if it's not profitable.
I just feel that she was more promoted than the rest of the characters. On the one hand, it’s an obvious marketing strategy. Karen is an established character, with an established, sympathetic connection to Frank, so it’s not surprising they would want to play up her involvement. On the other hand, it creates an impression that she’s a main character, so it’s deceptive. Marvel is ruthless and practical, and I think Karen's biggest contribution was boosting the popularity of the show (at minimum, there was obviously an effort by the marketing team to use "Kastle" to sell the show, rather than other characters, and they greatly downplayed the importance of other characters like Russo, Curtis, and Lewis, who are actually more central to the story.)
The cold never bothered me anyway
On a somewhat related note, I will say this, it's nice to see Karen have a conversation that passes the Bechdel test through her interaction with Dinah in episode 5. Karen and Dinah Madani should be friends. Because Karen needs more female friends in her life. She's a strong female character but most of the time, she only interacts with men, and Trish and Dinah are the only female characters Karen's interacted with who weren't doomed secondary characters (like Elena) or antagonists (like Reyes).
The cold never bothered me anyway
I mean, yeah, Daredevil always has had that issue. It's not just limited to Karen. But also to Elektra. And Claire for that matter. In that show, we only really get to see them insofar as how their actions affect the men around them. And the women never get to interact with each other.
To avoid double posting, something else that just occurred to me is that the lack of references to the other shows beyond just the events of Daredevil season 2 could be because The Punisher was not originally part of Marvel’s Netflix group. The other series follow a certain timeline that includes The Defenders. The Punisher operates just outside that timeline.
edited 18th Jan '18 10:08:22 PM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
- I still think you're wrong to put all that blame on Karen herself, and not on, for example, Fisk.
The issue I have with people blaming Karen for Ben's death is that they're essentially shifting blame from the murderer (Fisk) to the murderer's victim who is trying to stop the murderer from killing.
The cold never bothered me anyway
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I get this. On the other hand, though, Urich didn't die because he decided to investigate Fisk, or even because he decided to help Karen. He died because Karen tricked him into breaking one of his top rule: Don't touch the families. And the show let get her off way too easy for this. Hell, I could even live with the "you were like a daughter to him" BS, if Karen had learned something from this. But she is still dragging the people around her - most recently her editor - into her mess without their consent.
Saying that Karen is partly responsible doesn't automatically translate in Fisk not being a p... of sh... who deserves to rot in prison.
edited 24th Jan '18 1:37:34 PM by Swanpride
That's no different from Matt dragging Karen and Foggy into his messes whether intentionally or not.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Yes, and I have ranted about Matt doing this multiple times. He is my least fav of the Defenders for exactly that reason.
My issue concerning this whole Kastle thing, and I'll reiterate it, is how a lot of the people who ship it seem to not get the grasp of who the character of the Punisher is. The hard fact is, it would be detrimental to both characters. It would be seen as also throwing out the slow-burn romance between Matt and Karen that has been getting built up over the first two seasons of Daredevil to cater to a passionate vocal minority. Not to mention that it would just bog Matt's reconciliation with Karen and Foggy in Daredevil season 3 down with CW-style drama if Karen dated someone else. (My preference is that Karen leads a fulfilling life and stays single until she's ready to reconcile with Matt).
Kastle's also led me to other observations. Like the fact that there's a strong preference for non-canon ships because you have to actually do work to get the pairing together. That would certainly be a possible reason why there's more Kastle fics on Archive Of Our Own than there are Matt/Karen AND Matt/Elektra fics combined: because Matt's relationships with Karen and Elektra are canon in show and comics, but the relationship between Karen and Frank isn't.
Now, Kastle doesn't come completely out of the blue, but much like Olicity in the first few seasons of Arrow, it's more like a one-sided fascination. In a way, Karen probably represents all those women who find serial killers attractive (although Frank is not simply a killing machine, but a man suffering from a heavy trauma, that steers his current actions). There's also something about fandoms that makes them focus more on non-canon ships. Again Matt/Karen and Matt/Elektra are pretty much covered in the canon of the shows and the comics. In Karen and Frank's case, the only evidence of "Kastle" is so-called "hints" (which can all be blown out of proportion). And there's obviously no chance of this "pairing" happening within show's canon. It's clear that Frank's presence is deeply rooted in the past. Frank's trauma wouldn't be miraculously cured because he met someone who cares for him.
(Also, I love how Kastle shippers pointedly ignore how besotted Frank is still for Maria, as if they just skipped episode 12 or something. How he talks about Maria or thinks/dreams of her at least once per episode.)
The cold never bothered me anyway
Of course, Karen's not the only woman The Punisher didn't do right by. When you think about, Dinah Madani's storyline is also flawed. Namely, everything she does fails, either because of circumstances beyond her control, or because of her own questionable decisions. It makes you feel sorry for Sam at times.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Seriously, he is not underaged, and while his mental health leaves something to be desired, he certainly is capable of giving informed consent, so shipping him with someone isn't morally dubious. I say let people have their fun. You don't have to write a deep psychological analysis of the character in order to ship said character with someone.
Not to mention Matt/Karen romance took a pretty bad hit in the second half of DD S2, what with all the Matt/Elektra stuff going on.
Frank Castle doesn’t do romantic relationships after what happened to his family. He’s too haunted by their loss and too focused on his personal mission to care about relationships. Besides, any potential “romances” for him would end in constant risk of danger and/or death for that person anyway because Frank got too close.
What a lot of fans of the show may not see if they don’t read the comics is in the comics, Frank is a mostly unfeeling murderbot. The most emotional he gets during the entire MAX run is when he thinks he’s accidentally shot a little girl, and even that is done in a ridiculous, totally stoic way. MCU Frank has nuance and depth and layers. But sooner or later, something probably will happen and Frank will embrace the Punisher persona aka will resort to violence. As mentioned before, Frank's inability to move past HIS grief seems fundamental to the character. If he ever gets to a place where he has processed that grief and is capable of moving on, then he wouldn't be killing people.
The cold never bothered me anyway
An interesting note about Madani is that she's basically modeled on Matt of all people: someone with righteous intentions, but these intentions tend to be counterbalanced by recklessness and impulsive choices that cause clashes between her and those around her. In this analogy, Madani is Matt, Sam is Foggy, Colonel Schoonover is Stick, William Rawlins is Alexandra, and Billy Russo is Elektra. Gender plays a big role in The Punisher, and compared to Karen, Madani actually gets treated by Frank as an equal, not just another female to be protected.
In fact, Operation Cerberus's leadership is basically like the Hand: William Rawlins is Alexandra, Billy Russo is Elektra, while Colonel Schoonover, Colonel Bennett and Carson Wolf are the other "fingers".
edited 30th Jan '18 1:13:39 PM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway
As long as the shippers' desires don't end up affecting the show's quality, I don't see the harm in Kastle. Let them have their fun.
Of course, Karen's not the only woman The Punisher didn't do right by. When you think about, Dinah Madani's storyline is also flawed. Namely, everything she does fails, either because of circumstances beyond her control, or because of her own questionable decisions. It makes you feel sorry for Sam at times.
Eh, Dinah being the idealistic hero who can't actually make the changes she wants so she settles for vengeance. It's a plot that happens all the time with male characters.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Madani getting shot in the head during the final showdown also highlights an unfortunate trend in these shows where the female lead tends to get sidelined while the male protagonist takes charge.
Just to change the subject, anyone get the impression that Frank's flashbacks do have a degree of bias to them? Like, we never get to have any flashbacks of Frank and Maria having outright fights. I'm very convinced that it was a heated argument with Maria that led to Frank realizing he was becoming distant from his family and needed to spend more time with them, and deciding that they go to the park that fateful day.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Not related to Maria but one flashback showed Frank snapping at his son when the latter made racist comments. So I think even Frank is aware things weren't all sunshine and rainbows with his family.
I don't recall seeing that flashback, but good to be reminded Frank doesn't tolerate that nonsense.
Tis the great art of life to manage well The restless mind
- I don't recall seeing that flashback, but good to be reminded Frank doesn't tolerate that nonsense.
That flashback was in the beginning of the second episode when Frank was on the Circle Line ferry.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Mind you, I think part of that was also motivated by Frank's realization his death squad was motivated by nothing more than the CIA agent in charge's petty racism—especially since one of their "targets" was just a Afghan interpreter he thought looked funny.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
it's a living
"One fine day in the middle of the night, two dead boys got up to fight...'
It's specifically after Frank Jr. asks him how many hajjis he's wasted. Frank slaps him upside the head for it — not hard, but still. The way Frank gets it wrong with his kid and Micro's is important, I think. It's the way violence affects people, not just the kids, not just the people who die in combat, but the people who we ask to fight those battles. It changes people in ways we don't consider, ways that aren't always easily controlled when so much of basic training is about breaking the person down and reprogramming them to be able to do this job.
edited 4th Feb '18 8:04:03 AM by Unsung
Y'know, it's kinda off-topic, but I sometimes have to wonder, had Karen known Matt's secret entering Daredevil season 2 and/or had Matt told Karen and Foggy about Elektra right away, how would Karen's season 2 arc have differed?
Part of me imagines that if Karen had known Matt's secret at the start of the season, she would not be as sympathetic to Frank over the whole "him nearly killing Matt" incident. Likewise, if Matt had told Karen and Foggy about Elektra right away and what little Elektra had told him to bring him in on Stick's war with the Hand, that she'd be investigating that instead of the death of Frank's family.
The big issue I have is really that Karen Page’s addition into The Punisher felt disjointed and awkward. She could be cut from the storyline without much overall change to the plot. And based on what Steve Lightfoot has said, Karen was brought in at the 11th hour as an afterthought. That means her connection with Frank isn't important to the show, but the shipper bait IS.
And they sidelined Karen after a promising start. But that's a common trend with the Netflix shows: they have these strong, capable women like Claire Temple, Karen Page, Colleen Wing, Misty Knight, Dinah Madani, Trish Walker, Jeri Hogarth, etc. but ultimately they get sidelined at the end when the male characters take charge.
edited 17th Jan '18 2:42:06 PM by dmcreif
The cold never bothered me anyway