Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

I never said it did. I said he was still able to help somebody and was still able to pass on knowledge, even if he was unaware that she stole those books. Once again, like Yoda said: "Heeded my words not, did you? "Pass on what you have learned." Strength, mastery, hmm...but weakness, folly, failure, also. Yes, failure, most of all. The greatest teacher, failure is. Luke, we are what they grow beyond. That is the true burden of all masters."

While Luke may have failed to create a new Jedi order, he himself wasn't a failure.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 2nd 2018 at 10:55:08 AM

That's complete nonsense. By failing to rebuild the Jedi Order he was a failure, completely and totally — it was his life's work. Rey just scavenged his tomes — ideologically, she learned nothing from him. There's no master-student lineage from him.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

No, it wasn't. Where did you ever get that impression from?

Except for the fact that he literally taught her what the Force was. Hell, he spent more time with her than Obi-Wan spent with him. He taught her things in spite of himself.

Rey didn't do anything in TLJ she didn't already know how to do. If she left literally after Luke tossed his lightsaber away, it wouldn't have made a difference. His "the Force isn't a power you have" gibberish was worthless — she already knew how to kick ass, and that's all she ended up doing anyway.

Obi-Wan may have spent little time training Luke, but Yoda's training of him had way more substance than Luke's training of Rey.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 2nd 2018 at 2:06:51 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

Amusingly he spent most of their time together shitting on the Jedi.

Plus a couple philosophical platitudes about The Force.

And yes rebuilding the Order was kinda his life's work. Its what he devoted himself to doing after the Empire for most of his adult life.

I think that qualifies as a "life's work".

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:09:10 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

I'd actually say that Luke did teach Rey a lot about the force, just ironically while trying to do the exact opposite.

"Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"

Except for the thing that actually saved them all, lifting up all the rocks at the end. But then again, it wasn't about her knowing how to use the Force, it was about being connected to people. Kylo tries to get her to join him by telling her how unconnected she is, that she has no legacy; but Luke has already told that the Force connects to the universe. The whole reason she doesn't join him is because of what Luke told her.

No, it's not, it's one of the most important points in the movie, the fact that the Force isn't just a tool for Jedi or Sith to use.

Luke: What do you know about the Force?
Rey: It's a power the Jedi have that lets them control people and...Make things float.
Luke: Impressive. Every word in that sentence was wrong.

Once she learns how the Force connects them, she realizes how connected she is — first to Kylo, whom she tries to save, but then to the others, rejecting Kylo's offer.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:16:12 AM

That's totally idiotic — why would she join him after he pointlessly murdered his dad and cut up her only friend in the Galaxy? Even if she never met Luke, she wouldn't have joined Kylo. She already had connections before her stupid sojourn with Luke.

And the Force absolutely is just a tool. The most mileage anyone had gotten out of it in all of TLJ is in lifting this or summoning things — pure utility. I mean, you can inject as much metaphysical nonsense into the script as possible, but it's really Rey's ability to mete out carnage that gets her from point A to point B.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 2nd 2018 at 2:16:21 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

Did...did you miss the entire movie? I mean, like, half of the film was Rey becoming convinced that she could redeem Kylo. Luke even warns her that it's a trap, but she goes anyway. Why did you think she went to Kylo's ship? She wanted to redeem him. And after he killed Snoke, she thought he might have been, until he told her that he would take Snoke's place and to "kill the past." That's when she decided not to join him.

In TFA, she connected greatly with others, including Han, but always said that she wanted to go back to Jakku and wait for her parents. She was still trying to find connections to them, to her parents. Kylo took those connections away.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:20:38 AM

I mean she doesn't need to learn what the Force is to reject Kylo.

The guys a fucking maniac, no sane person would willingly try to save him after seeing him murder his own father.

Really its cause of Snoke is why she got drained of her very justified hatred towards Kylo.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:17:58 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Rey does. It's kind of the point to an entire chunk of the film.

But yeah, what kind of maniac would try to redeem someone who killed, say, a bunch of younglings?

Edited by alliterator on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:17:22 AM

That just proves she's a moron for thinking he was redeemable, not that she was lacking in connections to people.

Redeeming Vader was a narrative mistake — an "Even Hitler can go to Heaven if he just repents!" moment.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 2nd 2018 at 2:18:56 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

The difference being Luke never saw his father commit his most horrible atrocities.

Rey saw Kylo commit patricide first hand.

That's something that shakes a person to their core.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Yes, what could have possibly convinced her that someone as evil as Kylo Ren was redeemable? It wasn't, say, hearing the story of Luke Skywalker and how he redeemed Darth Vader, now was it?

I'm sorry, but am I taking crazy pills? Does no one remember the ending to ROTJ?

He saw Darth Vader kill Obi-Wan Kenobi. I think that pretty much qualifies as a horrible atrocity, considering the fact that Obi-Wan was mentoring Luke and was about as close to a father figure as Luke had at the time.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:20:51 AM

How would she even know about Vader being redeemed? Who told her? Did Luke tell her? Did Luke ever publicly talk about it, to anyone who wasn't Han and Leia? There were three people who saw Vader's turn happen. How would a bumpkin from a place so remote she doesn't even know Luke is a real guy know exactly the circumstances of Vader's death?

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 2nd 2018 at 2:22:24 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

Eh then Vader's redemption was a mistake.

Seeing it now with Kylo opens yours eyes I guess.

And two of them died at that moment.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:22:49 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

At this point in time, the "story of Luke Skywalker" has pretty much become a legend. Even Rey has heard of him — remember in TFA when Finn mentions him? Rey says that she heard stories about him, even if she didn't think he was real. "Luke Skywalker? I thought he was a myth."

Even if it was a mistake, it still happened.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:30:20 AM

Are you guys sure you actually liked the OT? It doesn't really sound like it. In which case I don't really think it's this movie that ruined Star Wars for you so much as your tastes having changed.

But that doesn't answer the question.

If all she heard was stories and legends then she would just hear bunch of crazy crap because that's how legends go, they exaggerate and sometimes fabricate whole events.

Plus she's more liable to believe Vader was slain than redeemed especially since the personal stuff with Vader was kept more private.

I don't really care that much honestly. I'm just debating about TLJ specifically.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:29:39 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Han told her that all of it was real, so why would she think it wasn't?

Why would the "personal stuff" have been kept private? In Bloodlines, the fact that Luke and Leia are the children of Vader was revealed to the public, so why wouldn't the fact that Vader killed Palpatine also be revealed? Hell, Leia could have revealed it in an attempt to make people see her better.

So...you don't like TLJ, so will contradict things that happened in the OT in order to put it down? Yeah, that makes sense.

Pretty sure he still ultimately failed especially compared to his actions in the original trilogy and in Legends.

Just because Rey will Continue with a new order possibly does not change where Luke failed.

Yeah Vader got redemption and died and he is pretty much the only villian to get it. Kylo has already refused his redemption opportunity twice, I don't see him getting another one.

"When I offered to make Norea my third back-up girlfriend she just glared at me and started throwing things at me.." Renee Costa

Sigh. Yes, sure, he totally failed by appearing before the giant forces of the First Order, taking on their leader and utterly humiliating him before disappearing. Hell, nobody even knows he's dead — so stories of Luke Skywalker are going to become huge and spread throughout the galaxy, inspiring people like that kid with the broom. Yes, I'm sure he would have loved to have established a new Jedi order, but just because he failed in doing that doesn't make him a failure.

Jesus, you guys are super cynical. "If you have a goal and you fail at that goal, YOU ARE A FAILURE. It's not like, I don't know, you can find some other way to do something good."

Edited by alliterator on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:55:18 AM

But he did fail as a Jedi mentor tremendously.

The fact he finally got off his ass & did something that bore fruit for once doesn't undo the fact that his later life was a fucking mess.

Sure he didn't die a complete failure but his later life was not something one can take much pride in for the most part.

He spent the last years of his life alone in a personal exile completely depressed. That is some pitiable ass shit.

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 2nd 2018 at 11:58:11 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

You mean the bits that the audience never saw? Sure. But his early life was nothing to write home about either. I think the important bits are the bits that we saw. You know, the bits in the movies.

And I agree, he wasn't a complete failure. He failed at some things and succeeded at others. You know, kind of like a real person. The problem is that most of the people complaining about Luke's character in TLJ don't see him as a real person, they see him as who he wanted to appear in ROTJ: a black-clad badass who could take down anyone with the Force and a lightsaber. Unfortunately, it didn't work against Jabba and it didn't work against the Emperor (both were killed by other people) and fans tend to forget that. Luke was always someone who bit off more than he could chew and had a hard time learning lessons, leading to him naturally failing at creating a new Jedi order. Luke was never going to be the badass everyone wanted him to be in TLJ, because he was never that in the OT.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 3rd 2018 at 12:05:26 PM