The King Without a Kingdom
Deathstroke is much more poorly utilized in Knight. "Who should we have as a boss for the Batmobile to fight? Oh, I know, that guy with an eyepatch who fights with a katana that everybody seemed to like from Origins."
It's been 3000 years…
I mean, I agree that he has the occasional interesting story (like his role in the Prelude to / the Wedding storyline), but overall he's still taken a downturn.
His role in the Designer story is shaping up to be very interesting too, since it seems to be built around lampshading the direction that his character has gone through over time.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 8:59:34 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Like can you name a story that's not death of the family and endgame where The Joker is acting like your complaints?
Even Joker Killer Smile was more psychological in nature and had showed the Joker's manipulative and not Batman obsessed side. Good read.
Even Scott Snyder dialed down, and actually made the Joker an ally to Bats in the DC black Label Last Knight on earth, and in the Batman who laughs miniseries. He even saves the day in the last one.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:00:05 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
You mean the one where the random reporter notes that he "never had a friend" in a report, so the Joker unstoppably tortures him until he breaks?
That's a very good example of what I'm talking about, actually. Joker as this unbeatable force of murder and destruction, where no situation or opposition can ever break him out of that concept. It's predictable and lacks tension, and is the kind of thing the comics have been doing to make the Bat rogues darker for years, and so generally comes off as writers responding to the "Batgod" meme by turning Joker into a god of destruction that doesn't really work for the writing.
It's especially noticeable given how a story of a similar type
was handled only a couple decades ago.
For every Wedding arc, there's stuff like Justice League #13 where Joker's only engagement in the plot is to instantly gas the Legion of Doom, reveal he could have effortlessly murdered everyone, rant about how he's better at the villainy thing than Lex, and leave. He's riding more on reputation than character.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:06:40 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
An exaggeration, like the reporter actually laughed at him and called him out, sure he was still stalked and driven insane but not actually physically tortured. That was pretty interesting, like it showed how the Joker can break a person without being physical and how his methods mirror Bats.
Again, Joker killer smile actually has one of the most optimistic endings in a Joker story i have ever seen, so people making the Joker an unstoppable killing machine doesn't really happen much.
Especially in Curse of the White Knight.
And yeah, i know the episode reference. Gotta love the classics.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:06:40 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Unless you're arguing that Joker was justified, that specific moment doesn't change what I said about the plot itself. It's still predictable and a good example of the lack of nuance in Joker's character.
Literally everything involving the White Knight is Elseworlds, too, so it's not indicative of Joker's overall character. And even that has a very basic concept - "what if Joker became the good guy, and it turns out Batman was the crazy one." The ability to turn that into a decent story does show the skill of the writers, though.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:09:15 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
I'm saying it wasn't a curb stomp battle like you claim it was, it took years for the guy to go crazy.
Okay, yeah White Knight is elseworlds, but it's not a Joker is invincible story and it's one of his most popular stories in a while.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:09:16 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
His words were "unstoppably tortured him". I feel that you're not actually countering his point here.
Years, incidentally, but it's a comic with a fast pace where one event quickly segues into another. We're not supposed to think "this guy was so good that it took Joker years to break him." We're supposed to think "Joker tortured this guy, systematically breaking him down and the nobody couldn't even do a thing about it."
Which, tbh, is a concept better done with The Penguin in stuff like Pride and Prejudice and his story in the first Joker's Asylum run, because in Penguin's case it actually feeds into his character flaws, and we see the resources Penguin uses to do stuff like that (plus the slightly more realistic nature of Penguin makes it scarier, which I think is the intention when villains such things).
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:13:05 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
Still, Aside from Endgame and Death of the Family, Joker hasn't been like that in a while. Sure like you said, he did humiliate the Legion of Doom and Lex but he didn't kill anyone there.
And there are still modern stories where he isn't an unstoppable killing machine Villain sue who isn't funny.
Even his role in Doomsday clock wasn't anything like that.
And hell, this game delivers the most satisfying defeat of the Joker in ANY medium. He's nothing without Bruce.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:14:09 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Like I said, Joker's been gravitating away from that recently, but "recently" is like "in the past year or two" - outlined best but how the actual Batman comic is intentionally using him very sparingly and only brings him out for worthwhile stories. They're starting to change, but that's because trying to veer Joker out of a downward spiral. They've been trying very hard to get away from the "Joker cuts off his own face how edgy!" / "there's more than one Joker so Batman can never defeat him!" kind of content.
Granted, the Nu 52 was bad for everybody except, like, Harley.
Although, the primary Rebirth Joker story I haven't is War of Jokes and Riddles, and that was because I've seen... less than good reviews about how it handles Joker and Riddler.
If you want a good Joker story in which he conspicuously doesn't kill anyone, my favorite suggestion is Joker's Asylum #1 (from the first run, which is like a decade old at this point). Him going "I'm going to torture to death and have unstoppable death plans for everyone here... but I'm such a good villain I'll just nearly kill you all and walk away" in the Justice League issue isn't a great example of him breaking type.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:32:40 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
Yes, i just cited Joker's asylum 1. i see you too are a troper of culture.
I'd also recommend Killer Smile, no spoilers, but it has quite an optimistic ending for a story about the Joker. I won't say if the Joker kills anyone because that's the surprise.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:40:10 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
I'll say this as far as Origins vs. Knight; the boss battles in the former feel at least a bit ambitious and succeed some of the time as opposed to the latter which goes for nothing remotely interesting and basically nails that consistently.
I can't even remember any of Knight's boss battles. Lots of them were just "shoot a lot of tanks" and "beat up a lot of guys, with one bigger guy."
I might just have an unpopular opinion though - imo the combat was the weakest part of the Arkhamverse games, and I could see how it was difficult to make engaging bosses out of it.
Origins' boss battles were pretty rad, though. My favorite is Firefly, where the fight gets so huge it turns into a dungeon where you have to get away from the fire before clawing your way back up to face Firefly again.
Crispin Freeman helps ("GOTHAM'S GONNA BUUUUUUURN!") but Knight just had you chase after him dodging bombs for a couple times.
On the other hand, Origins dropped the ball with a couple of its villains battles too. Anarky and Mad Hatter, iirc, weren't all that well conceived.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 9:48:06 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
I'm still annoyed Two Face is treated like a random mook, and Penguin is defeated with a QTE.
I think the only boss fight that's good is the Riddler's. That's a pretty sad bar.
But it makes me think how much more fun a Batman Family style game would be.
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Most games are, when you come right down to it, just "go here" and "beat up these guy" or "do this one action you've already done a million times before again," but it's a sign of a good game that they can hide that very well and the sign of a game that needs more creative work that they can't.
Both Origins and Knight were in the latter camp (with Knight being better overall, but at the same time more obviously repetitive), but Origins was at least able to break out of it for its bosses.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
O.K. How would Two-Face be a boss battle?
Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
I actually don't mind how they did Two-Face, since he's one of the least distinct rogues powers and resources wise (he's more of an emotional threat than a physical one).
At best, I would've given Two Face a special predator room where you have to fight to get to him, but he's constantly blasting away at you ((kinda like a mix between the Arkham Knight fight and City's Poison Ivy's fight) and the enemy placement is trickier and more - I guess - MGS like.
Or, even cooler, I would've made it a full sequence. You drop in on his bank robbery, but he gets away, leading to a Batmobile segment where you have to chase his getaway car, then leading into essentially the above idea as you sneak into his hideout.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 10:01:33 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
To make Two Face a boss, i'd make it like a sequence where you chase him in the batmobile and then he actually manages to disable it with his rocket launcher thing, forcing Batman to pursue him in his hideout on foot. Add in some deathtraps like giant coins to give Two Face and his mooks some advantages and Two Face has like special gear that the Arkham Knight gave him so he can fight Bats on an even field.
Come to think of it, deathtraps and crazy gadgets are how most of Batman's villains are on the same field.
I mean realistically, Batman would pull his punches on Harvey, like one well placed fist on his scarred side would do a lot of damage to his head.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 10:05:14 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
Yeah, that's another thing. I love the Riddler deathtraps in City - not the hostage rescue ones (I'm not a huge fan of them straight up depicting Riddler as Jigsaw), but the rooms where Riddler traps you with a hazard. And there's so few of them.
There's only two, and it was disappointing that there weren't more in that or any of the later games, or some thrown your way by different villains. It's one of those things that makes you really feel like Batman: suddenly you're stuck in a dangerous situation, the way out isn't immediately obvious, you have a limited amount of time to think your way out, GO!
On an unrelated note, it's kind of weird that the series never used the "predator boss has a weapon that lets them know where you are immediately, forcing you to keep moving and changing your tactics" idea after the Freeze fight.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 10:08:18 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Before working on Arkham Knight, Rocksteady tried to pitch a Superman game to WB, but WB (almost predictably) passed on it.
Apparently, some elements from the proposed Superman game still managed to pop up in Arkham Knight, like being able to wreck the environment (albeit Knight did it with the Batmobile) and the message from Lex Luthor to Bruce Wayne.
I've always thought the big thing getting in the way of a Superman game is that he can fly without limits or restriction, and that's hard as hell to balance in an action game.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 17th 2020 at 10:09:53 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Team Rocket Boss.
I'd make a wall of text saying how Rocksteady botched the Arkham Knight fight by not making it Mr. Freeze 2.0 but i'm sure it's been done before.
The Superman returns game had an interesting mechanic where Supes's health was metropolis itself.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 10:10:53 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.
I dunno, i personally think the Joker's reputation for losing all his fun side and becoming Zsasz is exaggerated, there are a couple of Joker stories in recent memory that i can name that do show off his more cunning and less murderous side without being over the top.
Like Joker's asylum 1, Batman Dark prince charming, or hell, even the Batman Annual 3 set during Endgame where he stalks a random reporter who mouthed off to him.
Even now he's pretty low key these days, last i recall he was advising Lex to not get too ambitious and not deal with Perpetua. Or that time he humiliated Lex and the Legion of Doom without killing any of them for dealing with the Batman who laughs.
Speaking off, i did enjoy Joker's role in the Batman who laughs miniseries.
I think Death of the Family and Endgame just made the fanbase never live it down. The Joker is pretty theatrical still.
Edited by RedHunter543 on Apr 17th 2020 at 8:55:47 AM
I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.