DC Comics General

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So now that Doomsday Clock has concluded what's the overall consensus? Personally I rather loved it. Johns treated the setting and characters with respect and he certainly understood things more than the legions of fools who tried to copy Watchmen in the 90s. Looking back you can see that the pieces WERE there all along, so it was planned out with care and intricacy. He also demonstrated that whatever his other flaws he GETS Superman and understands why he works. Maybe it wasn't necessary but I think that in terms of merit it actually did pretty well.

Note: I understand that some people were reluctant to read it because of Alan Moore's feelings on the matter or because they prejudged it (I've seen other people express genuine surprise when I told them that it actually wasn't that bad.) Dave Gibbons has been a bit more diplomatic about it (https://www.geek.com/comics/dave-gibbons-shares-his-thoughts-on-hbos-watchmen-and-dcs-doomsday-clock-1807018/); basically he can understand why they made it he just doesn't see the point. He also said that he doesn't have anything against Johns or Frank either.

While I DO agree that what DC did was unethical Moore kinda undermined his own case by a.) arguing that the only reason that they'd use his characters is because they're creatively bankrupt (which considering that he himself had to be talked into creating original character for Watchmen is kinda rich) and b.) being willing to do pretty much the same DC did when he tried to publish Lost Girls. In 2006 the Greater Ormond Street Hospital was the owner of the copyright (it lapsed in 2008). They made it clear they did NOT approve of what Moore was planning to do with the characters and so implied they'd object if he tried to publish in the UK.

Whether the Greater Ormond Street Hospital should have had the copyright they WERE the legitimate holders so Moore should have been willing to wait until it expired. Moore's first response was to try and argue that "oh they didn't REALLY own the story and characters. They just owned the right to the play." Basically because the ownership was inconvenient he tried to argue legal technicalities to justify wanting to ignore them; while he DID wait the mere fact he raised those arguments in the first place implies it was more a fear of getting sued rather then because he realized he was wrong. So essentially he was willing to use the same kinda legal technicalities DC used when it suited him.

That's completely hypocritical no matter what justifications you use and it feels like a lot of Alan Moore fans are trying to argue that his only issues are that he got swindled. More gallingly I HAVE seen Alan Moore fans try to argue that it wasn't REALLY hypocritical because the copyright was unnaturally extended by parliament in the 80s (which ignores that, fair or not they WERE the owners).

Basically it feels like they're arguing "Alan Moore was swindled, therefore it's ok for him to be an asshole" and "Who cares if Alan Moore was willing to use the same arguments DC did when it benefits him, it doesn't count because he's SUCH a good writer". And quite frankly I find that irritating

Edited by LordYAM on Dec 20th 2019 at 12:18:37 PM

Frankly, I found Johns' waxing poetic about how iconic and inspirational Superman is (without really showing it) to be obnoxious. The guy doesn't really get "Superman" so much as he panders to what people with a shallow idea of what Superman should be.

Huh sounds perfectly normal & I don’t just mean about him, just most writers in general.

He kinda did show it. Even after Manhattan bares his sins Superman saves him. He also continues fighting even though the world has turned against him at this point. In that regard he gets it; Superman doesn't give up even when everything seems utterly futile.

He's also shown Superman in other works as a fundementally nice guy who DOES feel emotions like fear and anger and sorrow and even has a bit of a mischievous side (one of his coworkers is being a jackass. Clark subtly melts one of the chair legs causing him to fall on his ass.)

Edited by LordYAM on Dec 20th 2019 at 1:43:29 AM

I think he did show it, superman spent most of the battle trying to save innocents caught in the crossfire because both armies wanted to do things right then and there, and saved doc and begged him if you can do something please help.

There's also the weird worship of Superman as a whole where he's treated like the "only one in the DCU that matters". Wonder Woman, Batman, Flash, Green lantern, Zatanna, who cares about them? They're nobodies is what I get from this final issue. Infinite Crisis had the same issue.

I mean, it's not like what he had Superman do in this final issue was something that couldn't have been done by another hero. And it arguably would have been more inspiring if they didn't have Superman's super power lottery.

Doomsday Clock was a good opportunity to show why DC was still relevant in modern times but it turned out to be just an excuse to worship its own i.p. One specific i.p. in this case.

Edited by windleopard on Dec 20th 2019 at 4:12:45 AM

they arent nobodies but they arent important in the way superman is someone larger than life who can inspire others to heroism across decades. yes batman can and wonder woman too but not to the extant that superman has across the decades. they are important but not vital to dc like superman is. batman is next and then wonder woman but honestly you just seem upset that something actually celebrates superman instead of shitting on him like all your posts do. like it seems all you do is complain about how superman is important and anything superman ever does in any of his books.

like yes superman might not be the best seller batman is, but I liked this ending as a reminder that superman still matters even if the movies get him wrong, he is still important and can still inspire people who seem lost.

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on Dec 20th 2019 at 4:58:17 AM

At least the comics remember Superman is cool, unlike the constant Batwank in every other medium.

No the comics have even more batwank, but geoff johns doesnt like batman that much so he doesnt do much in doomsday clock besides convince reggie to be a better rorscarch one who doesn't kill and tries to get actual justice done.

geoff johns doesnt like batman that much

I wish there was someone with this attitude when it came to making the movies, cartoons or games.

Did you know we almost got a Superman Family cartoon with Jon, Steel, and Kenan Kong? Someone turned that down.

hey we got that harley quinn cartoon and now jon is a 17 year old in the legion times so its still a win right?

I'm a genuinely bad person for saying this but I miss when Harley was just a funny moll and sympathetic villain. It's nice that at least one character has broken free of the shackles of the status quo but the constant shilling she's gotten was stale three seconds before it started.

She's just Girl Deadpool only everyone has to like her.

have you read harleen the black label book about her? its probably the best harley story we've had in years and the art is gorgeous. it's basically a retelling of mad love and how she gets drawn into the joker by thinking she can fix him is she can just see the real him.

Ozy manipulated things so that the others had their asses kicked. And also it wouldn't. Superman's consistently been the one to fight even when things seem hopeless and to try and save even the worst. In the context of the story (Manhattan basically told Superman he ruined his life, everything was falling apart, the world itself had turned against Superman) things were pretty much at their bleakest......and yet Superman was still fighting AND willing to potentially help even someone like Dr Manhattan.

It's not saying they don't matter. They do. It's just that Superman has always been the paragon of the DC world.

Johns doesn't hate Batman. He still gives Batman things to do and does like him. And it's refreshing that he doesn't blindly worship Batman.

Edited by LordYAM on Dec 20th 2019 at 7:14:49 AM

I feel ya, the constant shilling she gets is annoying.

I miss the days when she was just a villain. At least people weren’t sucking up to her so much.

also batman helped reggie and make him truly become the new rorscarch on his own terms and not a lie.

I've defended Superman numerous times on this and other boards. I've been a fan of his ever since I watched the Superman 90s animated series. Please do not pull the "no true scotsman" thing on me just because I don't like some portrayals of him and prefer others you don't.

I mean, I've criticized Batman plenty of times, probably more than I've criticized Superman, but you somehow seemed to have missed that and only notice when I complain about Superman.

Edited by windleopard on Dec 20th 2019 at 11:19:19 AM

It didn't feel that way. A lot of people felt that he was perfectly inspiring and given his circumstances they're kinda right

i'm not pulling one true scotsman on you but all i've ever seen in the past is you hating every single thing they've done with superman in the past few years. if you have done the same with batman i havent seen so much of that because everyone hates kings current run.

Before this Doomsday Clock issue, only thing they've done with Superman I have criticized is the past few years was the issue of rebirth regarding his confrontation with Luthor and the Injustice games, the latter of which many Superman fans dislike. How you got that all I do is trash Superman from that I have no idea. Other posters complain about his direction on this site far more than me without you accusing them of trashing Superman. This is not the first time I've had to correct you on this and I honestly think you're confusing me with someone else entirely.

Edited by windleopard on Dec 21st 2019 at 1:33:09 AM

Also, I don't hate King's Batman.

i've never seen anyone else be as down on superman in here and in his own thread as much as you I don't know maybe its the lack of an avatar that makes me confuse someone with you but I remember you being very very very anti hero in general.

you are literally the only person i've seen online across like 5 different forums that liked kings batman at the end. everyone else either gave up at the non wedding or the 35 issues after that

Edited by Deadpoolrocks on Dec 21st 2019 at 2:20:05 AM

honestly I 'd say king only had three REAL clunkers for arcs

City of Bane * Thomas mishandling

The Gift 'Booster mishandling

and The Wonder Woman part of Superfriends...

city of bane mishandled everyone alfred killing himself for no reason for suicide idealation, bane not actually doing anything, thomas's plan making no sense in any capacity and totally ruining any interaction bruce and any version of his father could have. thomas somehow beating all the batfamily in a group but losing to catwoman and bruce.