Shingeki no Kyojin/Attack on Titan (Manga Discussion)

I struggle to understand how "Eren is doing this because it's the only option" makes the story better. Even ignoring how even semi-justifying genocide is a terrible message to put into the real world, it strikes me as far more compelling that all of this is built from character traits and flaws he's always had, taken to their logic extreme, rather than just saying "well, it's tragic, but literally anything else means all of Paradis dies so what can he do?" It also speaks better of Isayama as a writer if that the case.

I feel like everyone acknowledges the situation for Paradis is extreme and unfair, that's not the point of contention here.

Edited by LSBK on Mar 2nd 2021 at 6:41:53 AM

I disagree. I think it's far more effective as a tragedy, particularly for the members of the alliance, if it's truly their only option for survival — and they still go against it because they can't condone genocide even if it costs them everything. Eren just being a xenophobic asshole, control freak or megalomaniac devalues the whole thing significantly. I also don't think this or any story owes it to anyone to deliver a "positive message", but I doubt we'll see eye to eye on that.

Eren doesn't know that and neither do we. Eren can't see 50 years into the future nor can he see alternative futures

He doesn't need to. By the time of Willy's declaration of war, the die was cast. The entire world was united against them from that point on — if Eren had slinked away instead of attacking Liberio and tried to go through with the plan, it would've just resulted in them waiting to be invaded, besieged and killed by the international coalition. The best case scenario for the 50-year plan was to kick the can down the road and it didn't even accomplish that.

But I don't think anyone, even Mad Skillz is saying that's what Eren is. Or the very least, that's not all he's supposed to be.

More to the point, it seems very have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too to deliberately set things up so this is the only way Paradis can survive but say the main characters can't abide by it but also have them only stop it after Eren has basically killed almost everyone anyway meaning they likely are safe now.

The characters are rewarded and lose (relatively) very little while still reaping the benefits of Eren's actions that we're ostensibly supposed to see as horrific. It's incredibly cheap.

I did not realize the idea that authors are responsible for the messages they, intentionally or otherwise, put out into the world was a controversial one. Especially with something this prolific.

Edited by LSBK on Mar 2nd 2021 at 7:00:12 AM

At the very least, Eren being being a xenophobic asshole was what he was initially before he went to Marley. Look at how he talks to Floch about the people on the other side of the sea. Eren seems to be the one that radicalized him. And Eren confirms it with Reiner that he saw the people there as just enemies. It's only with interaction with the Marleyans that he changes his views on these things.

I mean there's definitely more to Eren than that. But Eren's a character so it's way more interesting if his choices are the consequences of his faults not because the story said this was the only way so Eren did it. It just turns Eren into a plot device.

When you bring in socio-political elements into your story, the story should at the very least not be promoting negative messages.

Hange, Magath and Willy all say that Eren's debut and killing Willy in front of the world is what really brought the world together against Paradis. It doesn't matter that the ambassadors clapped for Willy's speech because they'd still have to go back to their respective countries and see if the leaders would actually go for it.

Besides, the 50 year plan involved a partial Rumbling that would likely potentially bankrupt countries. Show them a taste of that power and hopefully that buys enough time for the world's opinion of you to change.

So we really don't know if it could've succeeded. It may or may not have but Eren closed the doors for that route because he preferred his route.

Edited by MadSkillz on Mar 2nd 2021 at 5:12:53 AM

Also this idea that Eren is only doing this for survival is also bullshit.

Hizuru is allied with Paradis. Why isn’t Eren sparing them?

Someone answer why you think Eren is choosing to genocide an allied nation as well?

I'd doubt the effect of the 50 year plan in changing things for the better because of how its pointed out one of the reasons people adore the Tybur's is they've never used their Titan against another nation.

It would just be seen as a repeat of the Eldian Empire and ruling through fear. And forces the problem solving off onto someone else. Its only better in that it has a vastly lower body count.

Agreed. I can understand the sentiment that authors aren't obliged to try and be a "positive voice" but that's distinct from whether or not they're contributing to making the world worse.

It has already been stated through our dead Warrior Candidates that the other countries hate Eldians and treat them even worse than Marley. Them not being up for it, when the Tyburs have earned a reputation for being "The Only Good Ones" , an incredibly racist viewpoint in itself, ignores that Marley has been feeding the hatred and blaming the Eldians for their victories for over a hundred years.

What the plan was doing was gettin rid of the old Marleyan leadership and radicalize the other nations faster so they will join the crusade sooner than take a few years deliberating at best over it.

The moment Willy set up that narrative, just like how people complrtely the false narrative of a Marleyan who masterfully sent King Fritz running, means the manipulation, propaganda, and gaslighting of the Tyburs has been their art for ages.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Mar 2nd 2021 at 5:42:56 AM

It wouldn't be ruling through fear because presumably Paradis would stay on the island.

No political leader fixes all the issues in their lifetimes. Impatience and rushing things via force is one way we end up with fascists.

I don't see the idea of handing issues to the next generation as a bad thing as long as you made progress and didn't just neglect the issue.

Even if it was just that, it could've made all the difference in the world. Although I don't believe it was just that.

Most likely, some nations would have bowed out and not believed Willy while others would've still come in. Or at least that's how I see things going.

I do find it interesting that there's so much debate about this. In general, subtle isn't exactly Attack on Titan's go to, what Isayama wants the reader to think and how he gets his points across are fairly easy to pick up on.

But here I can genuinely understand the disagreements, even if I think it might it's not exactly a good thing that there is debate on the specific nature of this.

Its also how you get nothing done and short sighted decisions that just make the problem worse in the future because it won't be the problem of the people making decisions today or even in their lifetime, it'll be the future generations problems. Hell, we basically see just that with Grisha. He put off dealing with the Reiss Family until he had absolutely no other choice but to then tossed it all to Eren rather then do anything himself wasting like a decade of time Paradis could've spent to find a better solution.

Edited by doineedaname on Mar 2nd 2021 at 9:23:00 AM

One thing about Udo saying that the other nations treat Eldians worse... Should we take that at face value? It seems like a twisted view to me. In context, what he's saying is "Marley treats us like shit, but at least some of us get to be warriors and enjoy benefits. Other nations treat us like shit and they don't even have something like the warrior program".

Essentially, Udo's saying that Marley treats Eldians better than the other countries because at least Marley's looking to hire child soldiers. Though I understand Udo's perspective (warped by a lifetime of oppression), it's hardly a basis to agree with him when he declares Marley "better" than most.

That is a good point. Marley has the incentive of wanting and being able to use them as weapons and still treats the vast majority of them like shit. Other nations don't have those incentives but the same propaganda, made worse by the fact that they're still having to fight titans in the present day compared to Marley whom that's in the past.

That Warrior propaganda working as intended.

It is a very warped perspective yes, but the fact Marley makes use of them while despising them also lets them scapegoat the Eldians at the same time, which is why they send those traumatized POW by titans back.

Essentially it’s the best they got because Marley rigs it so that’s the only thing they got.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Mar 2nd 2021 at 7:12:11 AM

That's not entirely correct. Udo talks about it on two separate occasions. The first time he refers to the Warriors and then to Eldians in general where he wonders what will happen to them if Titans become useless in war to Marley and talks on how traumatized soldiers that survive combat with Pure Titans will be used as ant-Eldian propaganda and make the world's view of Eldian's even worse and semiseriously suggests the world would want to implement Final Solution on Eldians.

The second time it comes up during the Festival prep is when he mentions his family is from an internment zone in another country where their treatment was awful and they're even more hostile to Eldians then Marley is and makes no mention of the Warriors there.

Edited by doineedaname on Mar 2nd 2021 at 10:12:48 AM

I don't think Udo's wrong as he was a kid in a bad situation so he didn't really have a reason to lie persay.

And yeah other nations were actively getting attacked by Eldians turned into Titans which likely fed some of the Eldian hatred more coupled with Marley's bullshit. Hell I remember their being a brief flashback to show how scarily effective Zeke's scream paired with 100s of drugged Eldians would be in a enemy country's capitol were mostly its just civvies whom have no chance at fighting Titans. I am presuming that and the Titan airdrop was a semi-regular occurence with Marley.

Edited by Wispy on Mar 2nd 2021 at 7:17:19 AM

If nothing else, its more interesting than just a clean cut, black and white solution to the whole problem. It presents a genuine dilemma that both the audience and the characters face.

I think no matter what the ending ends up being, its gonna be controversial in some way and we'll probably still be debating about long after its over

So people are pointing this out on reddit:

Mappa made changes to this couple. They looked completely different in the manga.◊

And Mappa also added an original scene in episode 1 for a parallel here.

Well, I have seen a lot of fans memeing Jean/Pieck as a ship the last few chapters.

I swear if fans actually meme’d that pairing into existence....

So what do you all think of Gabi and how her character arc has been handled?

Pieck is bae and I do like how Jean has turned out so pair them all you want.

Well, the horse and the cart historically make for a good pairing.

As for Gabi - love her, wish we could have had a little more focus for her after the rumbling started, but no complaints. Also wish we got maybe just a chapter more of focus for Annie, for that matter.

It’s interesting that Falco has his arc in the Marley Arc and Gabi has her arc in the War for Paradis Arc but neither have actual character arcs in the Rumbling Arc. They’re more there for the action. I guess Gabi’s character arc actually concludes in the early Rumbling Arc with her and Kaya talking.

The characters with arcs during the Rumbling arc are Armin, Jean, Annie, Connie(brief as it was) and Mikasa.

Reiner got most of his development in the Marley Arc like Falco.

Edited by MadSkillz on Mar 3rd 2021 at 9:03:33 AM