The Place for Purging Porn and Pedo-Pandering (AKA P5 flag evaluations)

My biggest problem with it was the fact that there are, as mentioned above, explicit sex in 3/7 chapters played for titillation as well as implied sex in two of the remaining chapters. There was explicit nudity in all the chapters except one. Honestly, it's in the lower end of cutting, and I suggested cutting due to the comparisons with Aki Sora. I wouldn't oppose a clean-and-lock.

@Kuro: He, for future reference

Not in the slightest. I recall exactly one recurring young girl, and she's never sexualized.

edited 13th Jun '12 11:33:09 AM by tdgoodrich1

Is it pedo-pandering?

Okay, among the pages, how many are explicit? And why are they having sex? Is it plot-related, or just off-plot that could be skipped?

Skippable, I'd say. As for length, around 3 pages out of 30 page chapter with generally another 3-5 of nudity without sex. As for why, they are mutually-attracted teenagers. Why else? Again, the largest reason I suggested cutting was due to the comparisons with Aki Sora.

edited 13th Jun '12 11:44:03 AM by tdgoodrich1

^^^ No.

Doesn't sound like porn or pedophila-pandering to me.

I'd say clean up is fine, imo.

, Okay. Would it be alright to keep-n'-clean?

Slightly offtopic (?), but in light of the odd trolling attempt earlier today, I think the Rance series page should be looked into again, since we only really covered the first game. To those who've played them, how bad does the series really get with its content.

edited 13th Jun '12 11:50:20 AM by Komodin

Keep and clean is fine, with condition of monitoring, I would say.

Edit: Actually, given that, Aki Sora might warrant a re-review.

edited 13th Jun '12 11:57:49 AM by tdgoodrich1

If we're going for consistancy then it should be cut due to the precedence set with Aki Sora. If not then Keep and Watch is fine, since the page currently needs no cleaning.

I'm not even certain which one IS the first. (I've played Sengoku Rance, which I'm fairly certain isn't the first one) isn't there like, eight games or something?

Wasn't the conversion on Rance pretty much about the series as a whole?

In any case, the page that was flagged for review before was Sengoku Rance, the 7th game. We also have pages on the 1st, 2nd, and 8th games.

edited 13th Jun '12 11:59:01 AM by KuroBaraHime

Then we might want to review them as the come up individually.

edited 13th Jun '12 12:00:06 PM by Shadis

@Spirit: I'd rather not use "consistency" as a rule or guideline. It invites rule lawyering and strawmans as is.

It's better to figure out stuff on their own merits. It does not mean we can't use a similar work as a suggestion, though. Just not an actual rule/guideline.

Please tell me why The Story of O is okay but Fifty Shades of Grey isn't?

What Largo said, basically.

Consistency is significantly better then inconsistency. We should try to be consistent, but we also should try to handle each case on an individual basis. If we find sufficiently damning evidence in case B, the case may really be nothing like case A.

If there isn't anything thats absolutely damning on its own, consistency is a great guideline.

edited 13th Jun '12 12:45:34 PM by Roraborialis

@Komodin: So you're (they´re?) actually using the same argument as the people who censored comics because it "wasn't real art" and so didn't have the "right" to the free speech protections in U.S. law?

That would mean that the censorship is based not only on actual text, but on the censors' personal appreciation of the artistic/historical value of the work? Just trying to figure out what you're telling me.

I think Sengoku Rance is actually the eighth at least. There was a game in between that sixth game and it that was a kind of What If story.

As for how the other games compare, I expect Rance Quest would get the same sort of pass Sengoku Rance did, though I haven't played it. I play about half of Rance 2 and I can say that the storytelling was probably weaker, but it's still not an excuse plot and the gameplay stuff is still all there, though it's a different kind of game.

Yeah, I'm really wondering about Fifty Shades of Grey myself. If it's really pure porn, wouldn't its appearance at the top of the NYT bestseller list be nearly unprecedented? Contrariwise, if it's merely extremely filthy, isn't it likely that people would be (inaccurately) describing it as porn simply out of shock at seeing something so filthy at the top of the NYT bestseller list?

I admit that I actually know little about the work except its reputation, but the flat statement, "it's porn", seems implausible at best. I know people who have described Twilight itself as porn. And as for FSoG, the other wiki's article certainly suggests there more there than just wank material.

->"The Telegraph criticized the book as 'treacly cliché' but also wrote that the sexual politics in Fifty Shades of Grey will have female readers 'discussing it for years to come.'[12]"

->"Metro News Canada wrote that 'suffering through 500 pages of this heroine’s inner dialogue was torturous, and not in the intended, sexy kind of way'."

The "500 pages of this heroine's inner dialog" in particular makes it sound like there's more than porn going on there.

->"Other sites such as Jezebel have responded to the article, with Jezebel listing reasons for Fifty Shades of Grey's popularity, stating that 'the vast majority of fans fawn over the emotional relationship Anastasia and Christian have, not about the sex.'[24]"

(Emphasis mine.) And finally:

->"Several studios, including Warner Bros., Sony, Paramount and Universal Pictures entered bids for the film rights to the trilogy."

Which seems implausible if it's actually, as has been claimed, pure porn. We don't throw stuff out for having lots-and-lots-of-sex—we throw stuff out for being pure wank material with no tropeable elements, or with nothing but a thin excuse plot to cover the wank material. I'm really not sure that FSoG meets that definition, though I admit it may be borderline. In any case, I would definitely recommend a deeper look.

(Not that I'm volunteering, or will cry long and loud if it doesn't happen.)

Well, if you want to put it that way, yes. Does that present a problem for you?

edited 13th Jun '12 12:57:14 PM by Komodin

I am kinda awe shocked that such a series has gone on that long... Hey, at least the trope page for 8 taught me a new trope! (That isn't a sex trope!) Looking at the tropes, there's at least a slight amount of a plot involved. Umm, would It be possible for someone who is familiar with the series to chime in, and do a review?

edited 13th Jun '12 12:57:51 PM by Roraborialis

@Komodin: Well, it's not the first moral panic I've seen or read about in my forty years of life. But yes, they rarely end well, once people let go of actual arguments based on fact and start up with personal opinions of what is "good art" or "bad art" (entartete Kunst, anyone?).

Personally, I believe that censorship should be undertaken very carefully.

edited 13th Jun '12 1:06:33 PM by celemon

Let's not have this derail again, shall we?

Yes, let's not.

Anyway, what should I know about Koihime†Musou?