Manga/Dragon Ball

But most of that one track-ness is Toei isn't it?

I think Toriyama just has a comfort zone that Goku segues into and Gohan does not.

He'll stretch said zone a bit as long as it encompasses Goku, but discovered too late that he's not willing to leave it for others.

His idea about using Pan in some way is nice. Shame it will never happen. Like most characters, Pan has one role, and she'll never leave it. Toriyama made her as Gohan's daughter and Goku's cute grand-daughter, and Toei just used her as someone Goku needed to save when she messed up. No-one's willing to consider how she'd probably make a great sucessor to Goku, probably because she's a girl sadly enough.

One change could be...making Kakarrot a bad teacher, since that just up and left his character pretty much.

Have lack of proper teaching of Goten and Trunks be the reason why they fail and instead of just being an easy power boost, he also trains Gohand after Elder Kai finishes the ritual to unlock his potential. The training would just be helping him get better control of his power.

While...the reason Son doesn't beat Super Bootenks would ultimately be the same reason he didn't immediately beat Cell before. Follow up on that why don't ya, maybe even acknowledge Kakarrot's sudden mercy streak.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Jan 18th 2020 at 11:42:51 AM

The answer is the moon is made of cheese.

I don't think that using power levels to calculate destructive power is very efficient.

If we did, the farmer would be able to destroy a country.

In other words, Raditz supposedly only worth 240 farmers.

Base Roshi = 27 farmers.

King Piccolo = 52 farmers.

Frieza in his first form = 106,000 farmers.

Edited by JoLuRo075 on Jan 18th 2020 at 10:44:44 AM

Yep.

Because, and this is what the Versus community often forgets, Dragon Ball characters control their attacks so that they don't obliterate the Earth every time they throw a ki blast.

Roshi destroyed the moon by channeling all of his ki and firing an attack intended to destroy the moon. Piccolo Daimao, therefore, could likely also destroy the moon by channeling all of his ki and firing an attack intended to destroy the moon. But he doesn't want to destroy the moon at any point that we see him onscreen.

Piccolo Daimao's strongest destruction feat is destroying a city. He did this while explaining on the news that he was going to destroy cities, starting with this city. He intended to destroy one city, he announced that he would destroy one city, and then he proceeded to destroy one city. One city is all he wanted to destroy, one city is all he channeled the energy to destroy, and his energy proceeded to destroy that one city.

In the rush to quantify feats, the Versus community frequently ignores context. The reason for why we never see Android 17 blow up a planet is because at no point does Android 17 ever have a reason to blow up a planet. Nonetheless, Android 17 is substantially above Dragon Ball's baseline for blowing up planets, and it would be silly to suggest that Android 17 isn't a planet-buster.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Jan 18th 2020 at 12:04:55 PM

Yeah, it's not a matter of energy output, it's a matter of explosion size, and Dragon Ball characters have the ability to control the radius of the explosions their ki blasts create.

Ignoring context seems like a really obvious mistake they should pick up on immediately...

But...those people probably subscribe to the logic, that if they don't do it then they can't do it.

Which would be fine for a series with more loose power scaling than Dragon Ball.

Edited by randomness4 on Jan 18th 2020 at 11:29:49 AM

Spoilers for the latest chapter of the manga...

Moro's army invades and attacks Earth. The Z Fighters and the Galactic Patrol fight them off, including Yamcha, Chiaotzu and the Androids. Piccolo and Gohan have a pretty explosive battle with 73 and Shimorekka, using the Masenkosappo. Looks like Vegeta wants to go back to Earth, and Goku is still lost in space.

Edited by Rinsankajugin on Jan 19th 2020 at 4:47:35 AM

...Masenkosappo?

Yes, the Masenkosappo. Gohan and Piccolo's combo attack.

Doesn't sound like a workable combo from how the beams worked.

We didn't have a good old "everyone tries to hold out until Goku arrives" in a while, have we?

....

DAMMIT WHIS! YOU LEFT HIM THERE!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME?! YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE THE SMART ONE!!!

I swear to god, they need to stop this hold out until Goku arrives bullcrap! Stop treating him as a secret weapon! We know he's not gonna save the day anyway! The only big bad he's beaten in Super is Frieza...and that was only after letting him destroy the world once when he could have prevented it!

Edit: Nice to hear they actually dealt Yamcha in this time. And Chiaoutzu too. Wasn't expecting him.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jan 19th 2020 at 10:52:38 AM

I just want Goku to show up and win, no asterix. When was the last time Goku just soloed a main antagonist of an arc? Namek?

Namek.

Though he wasn't the one who beat Frieza.

why is it so important that Goku wins?

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jan 19th 2020 at 1:58:04 PM

Masenkosappo...

Is it this (at 1:38)?

He doesn't have to win every time. Just like, once in a while, just to shake things up. At this point Goku not winning became boring and predictable.

Well, he is the hero. It's true he doesn't have to win all the time, but considering how often the plot is built on him arriving to save the day and how everyone else is almost completely useless without him, constantly having him fail gets grating.

I imagine there are people who like Goku who want him to have the big win as well. It's the point of all the build up.

Now sometimes good things can come out of Goku not winning (him giving up to Beerus in Battle of Gods worked, because he still accomplished his goal in the long run), and I think his not pulling off a one on one victory during most ofthe Z era barring Frieza worked as well as a subtle build up to the switch to Gohan (though we all know how that turned out), and I would even say it kinda worked in the TOP even if having Dark Horse 17 pull off the victory was guessed.

But it's still kinda ridiculous for the plot to act like Goku is the only one who can do anything and then have him fail 9 times out of ten because Toriyama still thinks he's surprising people.

Edited by HandsomeRob on Jan 19th 2020 at 3:19:36 AM

Yeah, that's pretty much how it looked. Man, Arcsys really needs to bring back unique team-attacks.

Edited by Rinsankajugin on Jan 19th 2020 at 2:19:08 PM

Even if Goku had help, he was still absolutely instrumental in the victory against Jiren.

Goku has been the main reason behind any of the heroes victory efforts since Super began. Complaining because he doesn't win without unambiguous help is silly and shows a limited view on protagonist roles and storytelling.

He's played a major role in EVERY villain defeat barring Freeza, and even then he already established that he was superior to him by the time he was killed by Trunks.

I get that, but it would be nice to see Goku just put the other dude down.

I can't really explain it well, and it's a weird thing to complain about. Maybe it's because it's like a weird contradiction to me: Goku is the only one who can do anything, but at the same time can't do it alone either. So like, why make everyone else 100% worthless if Goku can only barely get the job done?

I still feel like I'm explaining it poorly.

Or maybe I'm still bitter over the Future Trunks arc, and how that turned out.