General Star Wars Thread

Yeah, RT critic scores are important to a film's reception but so are audience scores, and I'm noticing a trend of people repeatedly trying to discredit the latter.

TLJ should qualify for Critical Dissonance, I think.

The general audience, and what's more, Star Wars fans, are going to have different priorities in watching a film than a professional critic, and that's really what the RT score reflects. Honestly, what this entire conversation shows is that we're willing to dismiss critical or fan opinion at will if it's heterodox to our own opinion.

edited 4th Apr '18 6:35:55 AM by CrimsonZephyr

That's because it is...and the audience score doesn't determine much of a box-office record.

edited 4th Apr '18 6:35:27 AM by Luigisan98

Luigi, the Transformers films made more than a billion dollars in gross revenue apiece (give or take a hundred million dollars) and they're universally dogshit. That a film is seen doesn't mean a film will be liked.

edited 4th Apr '18 6:38:18 AM by CrimsonZephyr

Box office success followed by the second worst friday-to-friday drop in the series history.

They were dog shit and had critical reception that matched it, but that people kept coming back indicates people liked them.

And it did so with the worse scheduled second weekend of any Star Wars movie.

edited 4th Apr '18 6:47:52 AM by BigMadDraco

Until The Last Knight came and the box office records dropped, it was the moment where the audiences got tired of the same shit from these films.

And yet, The Last Jedi still managed to be one of the top box-office record movies of 2017.

Not one of, The. It was both the highest grossing and most profitable movie of 2017.

Probably because it carried the Star Wars name. If it had nothing to do with Star Wars, it wouldn't be nearly as profitable as it was.

Even that won't work the next time.

Hey now, don't get all cocky on the franchise's future.

It probably will work again, because Star Wars is a durable property with massive cultural penetration, and Disney-Lucasfilm is a master of marketing. The expectation that IX will suffer exaggerated consequences because of TLJ's controversial reception is presumptuous, and it has nothing to do with whether the films are good or not. They're expertly hyped and nothing anyone says about them will prevent them from making money.

I'm honestly more interested in the Solo movie's reception. The Anthology films, I think, being less transparently derivative, will be a better gauge of the audience's attitude to the franchise because they're films that I think the new creative team will carry more on their own. I'm expecting it to have a disappointing box office run due to bad press and anemic hype, and with a so-so critical consensus because expectations have been constantly dropping the more all these behind-the-scenes issues were revealed.

edited 4th Apr '18 8:11:13 AM by CrimsonZephyr

Debatable. The reason for the broken base nature in the first place is some groups believing it's not the Star Wars film they wanted. Without the Star Wars name, it wouldn't have any of that stigma.

That's true.

Unless the next episode will show things that will Win Back the Crowd after all.

Speaking of Solo, I can't wait until Lego releases the new Millennium Falcon set.

My big issue isn't Rian sticking up for his film, that's fine. Its this attitude that he and others seem to have that there are NO valid criticisms to be made about the film. That's there's nothing whatsoever that could be improved on or clarified more and that ALL complaints are just "fanboy whining." THAT'S where the perceived arrogance comes from. Heck Abrams stuck up for his movie, but he at least conceded that a few things could have maybe been clarified more or done better. Rian won't even do that much.

It's basically similar to what Sony and co did with Ghostbusters 2016 to try and deflect criticism from that film.

For me personally, I have my "fan complaints." I make no bones about the fact that I feel like Luke is written so out of character here that his character is basically eviscerated and what's left is a pathetic shell of what he was, and that the unraveling of the OT just to do the same old stuff all over again is the height of creative laziness.

But I have problems with it just as a film, outside of fanboyism. The pacing, the plotting, the misjudged attempts at humor, the plot holes/unanswered questions, being built on a mountain of conveniences and contrivances, etc. Those are just general criticisms of it as a film, let alone it being a Star Wars film.

But you also know that what you think of Luke isn't always defined in how successful it can be, you know there's a reason in why this portrayal is liked by others yet you portray as it was officially bad which it's absolutely not.

He didn't say that at all. His point was that, more than sticking up for his film, Johnson (and the film's defenders) make every criticism out to be fanboyism, that there simply isn't anything negative that could be said about TLJ on cinematographic or narrative grounds, and that such an attitude is arrogant.

edited 4th Apr '18 9:43:01 AM by CrimsonZephyr

I mean, if we're talking about TLJ as film separate from the "Star Wars" title then...yeah, I agree that the movie is genuinely flawed.

The plotting and pacing is definitely the weakest part of the film. I don't think it's that bad, but I could see why it would bother people. Still, I couldn't care less either way because I love the characters so much. Although if we're talking aesthetics and cinematography, the film is gorgeous. The acting is top notch. The dialogue is witty and well-written. And the humor, while divisive, is...hardly there actually (I never really understood that complaint). The action is also really good. The CGI is great. The costuming is great and the settings are beautiful.

All that's really left is the storyline, which I agree isn't perfect by any means. Anything else, like the mythology, the themes, the consistencies with characterization from prior movies all have to do with it being a SW film.

I think that the culture of fanboyism is what ruins the legitimacy of criticism for Johnson. Seriously, this guy received an immeasurable amount of irrational hatred for this film that he worked vey hard on, death threats even. It's not hard to see why he would want to "block the haters out." He's not above criticism, but the negativity is just very draining.

edited 4th Apr '18 9:50:49 AM by deuteragonist

Ah, I see now, sorry about it.

Doesn't make the detractors much righteous though, I know a guy who once said in a Discord server that the only people who could have loved the film were casual moviegoers...and as a fan, that was uncalled for.

edited 4th Apr '18 9:47:55 AM by Luigisan98

That's nowhere near the most offensive thing I heard . There's the sentiment that anyone who likes this film is either an SJW, minority, or a "Feminazi". There's the opinion that a perfect director's cut of TLJ would be a decapitation of RJ. I've even seen a You Tuber state that the everyone involved in making TLJ should somehow get terminal cancer for 2 and half hours so that it can compare to what some fans had to go through while watching the film.

That being said, there are legitimate problems with TLJ, but yeah...people are idiots.

edited 4th Apr '18 10:04:26 AM by deuteragonist

I like the movie and its ideas a lot, and by no means support painting all of its detractors as solely “butthurt fanboys”. I have criticisms of my own about TLJ, and one I hold that I haven’t seen anyone else say is that I feel the film is mistructured in a way that causes the second act to feel more climactic than the first.

Good three act stories are assembled in a specific way: Act 1 is “the heroes discover what the thing they need to do is”. Act 2: “the heroes travel to do the thing”. Act 3: “The climactic doing of the thing.”

The Last Jedi: Act 1: “We need to escape the First Order fleet.” Act 2: “Traveling to gather the people we need to confront the First Order.” Act 3: “Confronting the First Order fleet, battling its emperor, battling its chief captain, blowing up the entire fleet.” Act 3: “Wait what, all that was still Act 2?? Okay, umm... let’s drive on some old sleds until Luke returns.”

Canto Bight is not the problem, Crait is the problem.

edited 4th Apr '18 10:10:59 AM by Tuckerscreator

The worse thing I've read from the extreme fanboys though is the sentiment that anyone who suddenly likes the film more after stating some initially negative impressions are accused of being bribed by Disney for saying something so negative. Guys like Angry Joe and Mark Hamill suffered from it and it's the reason why I don't much legitimacy on the dislikers' side.

edited 4th Apr '18 10:09:26 AM by Luigisan98

Yeah, I've seen that too and it's outrageously dumb.

However, opinions change. I've actually grown to resent parts of the Last Jedi because of how many Finn scenes were cut. I still like everything else but the Finn disrespect made TLJ lose a lot of points in my eyes.

The plotting of the movies is the weakest but I'm having trouble figuing out what could have been cut. Should Luke have come back earlier or...? Also, as a Canto Bight fan, I agree. But I do love the Battle of Crait.

edited 4th Apr '18 10:18:03 AM by deuteragonist

The most hostile I remember Rian getting with a fan is a response he and Mark Hamill made to a misogynistic tirade, which was a specific situation that required a specific response. I don't recall him, in general, treating criticism in general as all coming from fanboys.