Marvel Cinematic Universe

That seemed to be Bruce's working theory before the Ancient One explained that the Infinity Gems don't abide by the same clean, easy, consequence-free time travel rules that everything else does.

It's not a popular theory among the fandom, however, on account of how story-breaking it is. If time travel actually works the way Bruce explained, there's basically no reason not to always be using it to solve everything. You can just bring back every character that ever died, no problem.

EDIT: That was supposed to be an edit but okay, it can be a duplicate post. That's fine.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 18th 2019 at 12:02:37 PM

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Ah, but it's not consequence free if it changes time, is it? The only reason that we have a new Gamora is because she came when they pulled an Infinity Stone, which created a split timeline. If they didn't pull the Infinity Stone, then no split timeline...but would that mean that Gamora would disappear from this timeline or that she would disappear from the past? We don't know.

It could be like that Goofy comic would he pulls a hat from two panels in the future in order to have two hats, but then it turns out that his past self stole his hat, so he only has one hat again.

This is why time travel discussions lead to me reaching for bourbon.

Edited by M84 on Oct 19th 2019 at 2:21:04 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised

In the immortal words of Rick Sanchez, "the answer is don't think about it."

Why stop at bourbon, why not try something stronger?

What's that stuff Krogan drink that can make you vomit out your insides?

Edited by slimcoder on Oct 18th 2019 at 11:26:39 AM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Makes me wanna give Deadpool 2 another watch.

Self-serious autistic metalhead who goes by any pronouns. (avvie template source)

Or, in the immortal words of Basil Exposition:

"I suggest you don't worry about this sort of thing and just enjoy yourself. (turns to face audience) That goes for you all, too."

Here you go:

What you are missing in that conversation alliterator (and I guess Tobias too) is that both Bruce and the Ancient One acknowledge AO's timeline as alternate to begin with.

The past where a time travelling Avenger shows up was never theirs. Each is an alternate reality.

Because time travel is a factor, in one reality Loki escaped with the tesseract, in another reality Thanos and his armies disappeared, and in yet another Steve married Peggy.

Because they can't change their own past, they can only alter the future of a reality where they travelled back in time.

Well, we do know, because they clipped her branch at the end of the film. After Cap made the return journey that undid the branches, Gamora didn't fade out of existence or anything, and neither did some temporal ripple cause her to have never existed in the first two Guardians movies and Infinity War.

New Gamora is what Bruce had originally thought the Infinity Gems would be. She functions under the same logic as the baseball glove Hawkeye grabbed. She was plucked from the past so now she exists in the present, and this neither changes the history of this timeline nor creates a new one. She's like a temporal clone, copy/pasted from the past.

At least, that's how Endgame presents it. The Russos don't actually like that version of time travel and instead insist on everything you do in the past creating a new timeline, with or without the Infinity Gems being involved. Marvel seems to be gearing up to canonize their interpretation with the upcoming Loki show.

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But how can I not question I Can't Believe its Not Butter for tasting like butter but not being butter?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

I continue to hold the opinion that time travel in a story only really works if it's introduced asap. As in, the first installment.

That's why I still enjoy something like Beast Wars, which introduced the time travel plot element (transwarp) in the first minutes of the first episode.

Disgusted, but not surprised

Though you could always just assume that Loki used the Tesseract to, however briefly, open a portal to a different reality and hide out there, and the temporary absence of an Infinity Stone would thus cause a split timeline.

They clipped her branch, but she still exists because she's from an Infinity Stone-less Timeline. Just like Loki exists in a split timeline because he took an Infinity Stone. I'm saying what if someone changed time without an Infinity Stone. (We've already seen this happen in Agents of SHIELD and we assume this happened with Captain America or he created a split timeline.)

Again, she was plucked from an Infinity Stone-less Timeline. But the glove wasn't. So either the glove disappeared one day because Future Hawkeye picked it up or Hawkeye created an alternate timeline in which the glove disappeared one day...but alternate timelines are caused by Infinity Stones. Hawkeye didn't just create a duplicate glove, he took one from the past.

Nope, Loki has an Infinity Stone, remember?

That's not how the tesseract works. It opens space portals, not alternate dimensions.

The infinity stone taken from the Loki escapes timeline is the time stone.

Edited by MrSeyker on Oct 18th 2019 at 11:37:48 AM

What about Dragon Ball?

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Banner took the Time Stone from 2012, but Loki took the Space Stone from 2012, so technically both Stones went missing at the same time.

Also, alternate dimensions exist in space, don't they? So I don't see why the Space Stone can't access them.

Loki isn't time-traveling. The Infinity Gem in his possession never left the timeline. It just left New York. So there's no reason under Endgame's rules that it would create a new branch.

Loki grabbed the Space Gem and portalled away from Earth to safety. This should have no more effect on the timeline than that time Thanos used the Space Gem to portal from Titan to Wakanda.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 18th 2019 at 12:43:17 PM

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Well, we don't know if "removing an Infinity Stone" means flat-out pulling it from reality, or moving it at all from its current fated position. If the latter is the case, then Loki timeline is still branched since the Tesseract's been taken from its position, but I question how one could feasibly return a stone to the exact position it was removed from, down to the planck length.

And no, "alternate dimensions" are completely removed from the concept of space. Think of it like a whole separate Z-axis to time and space's X- and Y-axes.

Edited by Anomalocaris20 on Oct 18th 2019 at 2:48:44 PM

You cannot firmly grasp the true form of Squidward's technique!

It means removing it from the timeline. It's generally assumed by the fandom that Cap, on his return trip, has to make sure that every Infinity Gem winds up in the exact spot that they took them from. So the Space Gem needs to be put back into a Tesseract form and put back in S.H.I.E.L.D.'s vault. Cap has to give the Soul Gem back to the Red Skull. He has to inject the Reality Gem back into Jane Foster. Etc. etc.

But the film never actually indicates that. It doesn't talk about space at all in conjunction to clipping the branches; it only emphasizes time.

Bruce: Because once we are done with the stones, we can return each one to its own timeline at the moment it was taken. So, chronologically, in that reality, it never left.

Bruce: Remember... You have to return the stones to the exact moment you got them. Or you're gonna open up a bunch of nasty alternative realities.

Putting the Gems back inside the vault and Vormir and Jane is never once brought up. By the logic provided to the audience, so long as there is never a single moment that passes where the Infinity Gem does not exist in time, a timeline branch can be prevented. Outside of that, it doesn't matter if Steve just chucks the Gem on the ground at each stop.

It just has to be in the timeline.

• Creates a New Timeline: At 6:42 PM on Tuesday, the Reality Gem ceased to exist. It resumed existing at 6:57 PM.
• Does Not Create a New Timeline: At 6:42 PM on Tuesday, the Reality Gem ceased to—oh, wait, never mind, it's still here. It's just in Cleveland now.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 19th 2019 at 1:00:52 PM

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The Disney+ show begs to differ.

Actually, we don't know what creates a split timeline. We know, per the Ancient One, removing an Infinity Stone creates a split timeline, but we don't know if that's the only thing that can create a split timeline. We also don't know what "removing" means — whether it means "removing from this timeline" or "removing from where it would normally be during this time period." Like, if Bruce took the Time Stone and just, you know, moved it over to Europe, that could the same thing as removing it from this timeline. Because then Strange still wouldn't have access to it to stop Dormammu, thus dooming the timeline to darkness.

Yeah, and if you move the bomb that blew up in Tony's face in Iraq a few inches to the left, it kills him, "dooming the timeline to darkness". Except that doesn't create an alternate timeline under the Endgame rules, because it doesn't have anything to do with "removing an Infinity Gem".

The new timeline isn't created by "Oh no Dormammu will kill us all". It's created by the artifact that creates time no longer existing in the universe. "There can be many different meanings of the word 'remove'!" is a purely semantic point that blatantly ignores the actual things being said in that conversation.

1. The Infinity Gems create time.
2. Taking an Infinity Gem out of the timeline disrupts the flow of time and makes a branch.
3. Putting the Infinity Gem back into the timeline at the exact moment it left the timeline prevents the branch from being made.

Those are the rules. They're neat, simple, and easy to follow.

And if it seems weird that making changes to the past has no actual effect on anything, I ask that you direct all clarifying questions to the almighty reality-warping god-stones that literally create time.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 19th 2019 at 1:27:35 PM

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So, I was reading Endgame's YMMV and found this.

That's just making stuff up in order to pigeonhole Steve under Unintentionally Unsympathetic.

Again, both Hulk AND the Ancient One aknowledge we are dealing with two separate realities.

They absolutely change the timeline that they travel to. But that does nothing to the one they come from.

Edited by MrSeyker on Oct 19th 2019 at 12:38:16 PM

Pigeonhole or not, I think the trope actually applies, no matter if you go with the director or the writers interpretation.

It was just such a lazy and selfish way out.

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No, they are the exact opposite of those things.

Removing a Infinity Stone is one way to split the timeline, but the Ancient One never says it's the only way.

Edited by alliterator on Oct 19th 2019 at 12:41:58 PM