Marvel Cinematic Universe

Unlike Thor she aimed for the head.

IMO, the MCU should introduce mutants, their situation and X-Men gradually. Instead of immediately dumping the team on us and going “here are all the mutants, everyone oppressed them, this is reality now,” just set up the situation but by bit.

This is especially easy with the mutants because a lot of their core characters either started as members of other characters’ mythoses or interact with non-X-Men characters on a regular basis. For example, Mystique started out as one of Carol Danvers’ villains, and her and Rogue could work as antagonists / supporting characters (Heel Face Turn in the latter case) in her movies and still get the fleshing out they need. Wolverine could show up in something Captain America related with flashbacks to WW 2, even if it’s Bucky-Cap or something.

And then years down the line it’s established that the ”gifted” situation is becoming so widespread that darker parts of the public have come to calling them “mutants” and racism for them is starting to grow. And the modern day is rife with allegories they could make about institutionalized or “legitimized” racism at that point without necessarily recycling the same stories.

I agree they need to cool it with Magneto, though. I usually don’t buy into the “an earlier, unrelated film series used a character a certain way, so we should avoid him” idea, but the X-Men have yet to have a single movie that wasn’t, in some way, about him. And there’s an entire mythos worth pulling from that they by and large haven’t (or have mishandled) as a result. I absolutely don’t think he should be cut out, but him being a lore character or referenced (or the subject of after credits hints) for a while would work out fine.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Sep 23rd 2018 at 6:51:31 AM

A 15-minute video comparing how Infinity War and The Last Jedi subvert expectations, and why the author personally felt Infinity War was better executed in that goal.

Will cross post with the Last Jedi thread.

Edited by VeryMelon on Sep 23rd 2018 at 12:07:21 PM

Personally I'd establish there there are people who just look different. Not nessicarily super powered, they just look weird, and they have this tiny subculture in some cities where they meet up and just have private spaces for themselves where they don't have to hide how they look.

And have it be that it's the Hellfire Club that runs these and that are purposefully motivating mutant segregation so that they can easily recruit members.

Hellfire club are the starter villains, they get dealt with, but then mutants in the public eye are suddenly associated with them.

Maybe even have Mastermind be on their pay roll to explain why SHIELD never got a drop on them. Or that the Hellfire Club had contacts with the hydra half of SHIELD to maintain anonymity.

I really want mutants with no powers or useless spot-on-the-wall powers to make a comeback. I miss those guys.

Yeah, unless they alter history it seems like a bad idea to rush into it. Especially, when recent X-films have already covered similar plot points. Which Marvel would likely avoid at all cost considering how they approached Hulk, Spider-Man, and Captain Marvel(changing Carol’s origin because it was too similar to Green Lantern).

Btw, I think the OG X-Men franchise should become the Exiles franchise. An Exiles TV show was pitched and Legion had an episode that explored the multiverse. It would be cool if members of the team consisted of characters of the X-films, Legion, and Gifted.

Honestly, there is no hurry. I would be totally okay with the X-men other than perhaps a select few being shelfed a while (and those which aren't can just be Inhumans - don't kill me, I don't completely replace the Inhumans, I just feel that some X-men, like Dazzler, would fit better in the MCU than into a world where they are getting hunted), with the MCU continuing with properties like The fantastic four, the Silver Surfer, Namor (if they managed to free him from legal limbo), Silverclaw (what? I want I Silverclaw movie), The Eternals, the Young Avengers, aso.

And I guess they can do a deadpool movie in which he comments on how changed his world suddenly is, something not really in the MCU continuity, but kind of in the margins as meta-property.

The points in the video about Infinity War vs. TLJ are well-done. Also I particularly latched onto the "why Thanos is a great villain" because yeah, he succeeds where Kylo fails imo in being an "understandable" baddie. Heck Killmonger from Black Panther and Vulture from Spider-Man Homecoming do as well.

Also the whole "villain doesn't win because the hero's are idiots" is also something that IW did far better imo.

If X Men joins MCU...

...does that mean Deadpool can be in MCU as well?

It is okay if characters are idiots if their mistakes are understandable. If they are just acting randomly stupid (like just leaving powerful things lying around for the bad guys to steal for no reason whatsoever), than it takes me out of the story.

I agree, I'm okay with characters making mistakes when those mistakes are understandable given their personalities, or are based on strong emotions. (It seriously annoys me when fan say it's a "plot hole" or Idiot Ball for characters' decisions to be influenced by their emotions.)

When characters who are supposed to be intelligent or skilled do stupid things simply because it's necessary for the plot, that's when I get annoyed. Usually, it's just lazy writing, because it's easier to think of a stupid plan than a smart plan. (It was one of the main flaws of the first season of Agents of Shield. It's okay for the characters in other Whedon shows like Buffy or Serenity to be incompetent sometimes, because they're a Ragtag Band of Misfits. A team of elite government agents should be displaying some level of competence and professionalism. Happily, the show improved on that in later seasons.)

Edited by Galadriel on Sep 24th 2018 at 8:58:52 AM

" he succeeds where Kylo fails imo in being an "understandable" baddie"

Well that was the point, Thanos is frame as resonable,calm and level headed while Kylo is a whinning psycho.

If anything, Kylo comparation will be Loki and that is muddle as hell.

They're fundamentally different types of character. Thanos is supposed to make you think, "Does he maybe have a point?" at least until you have two minutes to mull it over and go, "No, not really. But he still believes in it pretty strongly."

Kylo Ren is supposed to make you ask, "Can he be saved? Is this person capable of redemption? Is it possible for him to one day see the light?" until about halfway through the film when he slams the door in his own face. Not everyone wants to be saved. A lot of terrible people see nothing wrong with who they are.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 24th 2018 at 7:14:42 AM

True regarding Ao S. That was my major issue, too. I mean, they kind of had the excuse that Fitzsimmons weren't field trained and Sky wasn't and Agent at all, but they didn't gave a good explanation why this is the team Coulson picked until the end of the season, and even then you have to wonder why he wasn't concerned up their lack of experience.

This is the one thing they rebooted in season 2, ensuring that all characters would act like competent agents, and it improved the show considerably.

Kylo counter in MCU is Ward, both are monster who monstrosity come from the fact they belive they are right.

Well, Thanos believes that he is right as well. That's hardly a distinguishing trait of villains.

Thanos believes it's absolutely necessary and serves a grander purpose, but not that his hands are clean or that the cost isn't horrendous. Which makes him far more sympathetic than Ward or Kylo, even though his actions are infinitely more monstrous in scope. He believes it's a great wrong that will ultimately make a greater right, as opposed to a right which makes any previous wrongs disappear. (Heh.)

Edited by Unsung on Sep 24th 2018 at 8:12:51 AM

That part is absolutely true. He is completely aware that what he's doing is "evil", but views it as necessary to creating a greater good. Kylo Ren, for his part, is determined to tear down everything that forms any sort of emotional attachment. It's a temper tantrum writ cosmic due to his power and influence.

Again is framing, Kylo and Ward convition make look unhinged, even more in Ward case as he REALLY try to think he can get back to the team just like that.

Thanos come as calm and even likable to a sense, is tone down ways make easy to aproach.

Thanos is what Snoke would look if he Snoke didnt look like space hugh hefner.

It depends, Thanos is also a forme of emocional detachment, to said "I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG!" is just he waaaaaay more calm about it.

Edited by unknowing on Sep 24th 2018 at 9:55:14 AM

Right, but what I'm saying is that Thanos's actions are the source of his monstrousness, not his belief that he's right. But that belief is the core of what Kylo and Ward so unpleasant: Kylo Ren lacks the emotional depth to see himself as anything other than the victim, while Grant Ward has a fairly sophisticated framework he uses to convince himself that none of the bad things he does are ever his fault.

Edited by Unsung on Sep 24th 2018 at 8:07:25 AM

It's more complicated than that. Thanos is actually thinking that he is doing the right thing. Ward knows that what he is doing is evil, but he refuses to take any responsibility for it and is instead blaming everyone else for his actions. That's what makes him so compelling as a villain, because he isn't just lying to everyone else, he is also lying to himself.

Ward sees himself as the tragic antihero that nobody understands. He's not looking for redemption, but for vindication of his journey. He wants someone to look at him and go, "Everything you've ever done, every brave and noble sacrifice you've made, every hurdle you've had to cross, it was all for a greater purpose. Your choices were good ones all along. You, Grant Ward, are truly the hero of this story."

But the problem is that he's not a hero, he's a murdering shit-weasel spiraling into greater and greater depths of desperation.

Thanos is killing people as what he considers a necessary evil towards a better future.

Ward is killing people because "GODDAMMIT WHY WON'T YOU UNDERSTAND HOW NICE A GUY I AM I'LL F*CKING KILL YOU!!!'

Edited by TobiasDrake on Sep 24th 2018 at 8:24:57 AM

Ward reminds me a bit of Lindsey, an in-universe case of Protagonist-Centered Morality with a heightened sense of his own importance. Someone who wants it both ways, to get whatever it is he thinks he deserves and to then address his sins on his own timetable.

While Ward is certainly less sympathetic, I for one wouldn't say that I don't find him sympathetic at all. He was still shaped into the man he is by outside forces and had some tragic elements to him.

When I think "Completely unysympathetic villains from the MCU" the likes of Harold Meachum or Ego come to mind way before Ward.

Yeah, I agree. I mean, the thing with Ward is, I hate the man he became, but part of me always wanted an opportunity to turn back time and gave this little boy the chance to be the hero he always wanted to be.

And I vote for Kilgrave, Ego and Mama Mabel as being the worst of the worst.