Nov 2023 Mod notice:
There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.
If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations
and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.
Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.
If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.
In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.
Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
Surrounded by weirdoes
There are many ways to call those jackasses. I prefer "losers" and "hellfated"
Wake me up at your own risk.
You'd really think that the "rational" Christians would be making more of a fuss about fundamentalists and evangelicals claiming to stand for them. #Not All Christians
We do. No one listens.
Edited by PhysicalStamina on Feb 25th 2021 at 11:53:27 AM
It's one thing to make a spectacle. It's another to make a difference.
You'd really think that the "rational" Christians would be making more of a fuss about fundamentalists and evangelicals claiming to stand for them. #Not All Christians
...
I just realized why this argument bothers me.
It's the exact line used against Muslims, "why don't you speak out against Bad Muslims". When in reality Muslims do all the time. And I don't see any reason to assume that Christians are different in that regard.
It's not a good argument.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 25th 2021 at 8:55:32 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
I do all the time but they have Fox News.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Lost in Space
But we get upset at police when the "good cops" don't act in defense of their profession. We can't have it both ways.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Religion is not a profession, the sheer diversity is incomparable. Furthermore, Christians do. Biden is very much a Christian, as was Obama.
My Senator is a literal pastor.
I'm an atheist and an anti-theist. I don't like religion or religious institutions but I also don't like fallacious arguments. This isn't a good argument.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 25th 2021 at 9:06:09 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
There's also the simple fact that a decent chunk of what I call "television Christianity" is actually part of an organized scam. While it's easy to label the Church of Scientology as a corporation masquerading as a church, this applies to a lot of ministries that are explictly for profit. I don't think these should have tax exempt status and they exist very strongly to bilk their worshipers of vast amounts of money while working hand in pocket with the GOP.
They fight the culture war because the culture war doesn't require improving their communities or charity work—only hate.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Lost in Space
And yet we can't seem to get legislators to rein those in and punish them properly, any more than we can get police departments to punish their abusive cops. Heck, the Catholic church doesn't get to talk in that regard either.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Figure of Hourai
I mean, yes we can.
The police are being paid to do something. Being complicit in the abuse of that trust and its use for the exact opposite reason police exist is reason for complaint.
We're not demanding the police to speak up about their private life and beliefs, here.
Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 25th 2021 at 5:11:19 PM
Avatar Source
Like reflections in the glass!
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
I was kinda sorta wondering where the "tele" in "Televangelist" came from.
Edited by MorningStar1337 on Feb 25th 2021 at 9:11:17 AM
One issue with a muscular Christian progressivism is that separation of church and state is a big deal on the left (with a side order of people who want religion smashed period), which in turn means that a lot of progressives are :| about religious arguments except in the very broadest terms, and therefore it's a little rare to see Christian progressives make expressly Christian political statements.
Would that it were so simple.
The religious left doesn't have the massive funding network the religious right does. Part of that is a natural consequence of being less likely to be led by conmen who profit off the ignorance of their congregants shamelessly, but it's also a question of scale. American megachurches tend to blend po-faced Protestantism with hypercapitalism, so it's an easy fit for conservatives who can grow it into a huge bloc. That's not to mention the Catholic Church, where the congregants and local church leadership are liberal or conservative based on where they live, but the higher establishment that determines doctrine and applies political pressure is uniformly conservative.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:14:28 PM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Like reflections in the glass!
Makes sense, that tends to be the problem with religion getting abused by the right-wing as a tool of control and power.
Redmess
Considering the power and influence religion has, we should absolutely keep them to the same standards as the police. Bad things happen when we don't, like taking children away from unwed mothers and that sort of stuff.
Optimism is a duty.
Considering the power and influence religion has, we should absolutely keep them to the same standards as the police
I think it's very questionable to conflate a specific institution with a general concept, religion =/= religious institutions.
Fighteer was talking about Christians, not just churches.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 25th 2021 at 9:21:26 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Would that it were so simple.
Oh I know. If Massachusetts society in general had been more skeptical of the Catholic Church's infallibility, a lot of priests could have been cast out and thrown in jail and many more rapes could have been averted.
My attitude is that religion is...fine existing, I guess. They do good work when they're not harassing abortion doctors or raping children. But, you have to be careful. Keep it at arm's length and always be ready to bring down the hammer.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:24:29 PM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Maybe its my anarchist sympathies but I tend to view that its almost impossible to make functional systems of power because power attracts corruption. The oldest and most powerful are corrupt so must be torn down regularly to be rebuilt.
I'm so glad we have your permission to exist.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Feb 25th 2021 at 9:24:55 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Lost in Space
Religious institutions have spent a lot of effort to keep themselves above the law or at least exempt from it under the aegis of the First Amendment. Clearly they enjoy a very powerful lobby in Congress as well as heavy media influence. So it's a little disingenuous for folks to try to disavow the "bad ones" whilst hanging onto their Constitutional privilege, which is exactly what is used to shield those people from consequences.
It is a privilege. One guaranteed under our system of government, but subject to colossal abuse. So don't act all prim. The Founders themselves were quite clear that government should stiff-arm churches and that churches should stay out of politics, but that has eroded quite a bit over the years.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:28:24 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Figure of Hourai
Uh... no? Police and religions, and especially police officers and followers of any given religion, are in no way equivalent.
Avatar Source
Lost in Space
That is true. A police officer who commits a crime in the course of his duties is actually subject to prosecution (in some cases), and when they systematically commit crimes that their institutions systematically cover up, people call for them to be disbanded.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:31:48 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
You started off by talking about Christians as a group, now you're moving to the crimes of clergy.
That's moving the goalposts if I ever saw it.
"Religious institutions get away with far too much" is a very different argument from "where are Christians condemning other Bad Christians".
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Figure of Hourai
It is a privilege. One guaranteed under our system of government, but subject to colossal abuse. So don't act all prim. The Founders themselves were quite clear that government should stiff-arm churches and that churches should stay out of politics, but that has eroded quite a bit over the years.Seriously? "Religion is a privilege you should be glad you're allowed"? How the hell is this a justified attitude?
Avatar Source
Would that it were so simple.
We get further with police than we do with churches. At least we can get cops in front of a judge — on the occasions where grand juries don't simp for the police — and the trial is fair — when judges allow the jury to hear key evidence — and on some occasions, they even get convicted as charged — when trial juries don't simp for the police. Compare that to churches, where the depths of their iniquity, perversion, and criminality are only revealed years after the fact by victims or the disenchanted, when it's often too late to do anything because religion is an even more isolated subculture that handles everything internally.
Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:38:18 PM
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Lost in Space
The two issues are not as separate as they may appear. Churches enjoy unique privileges in this country that are staunchly defended by religious people of all political affiliations even as they enable toxic behavior.
One fully appreciated by the founders of the United States.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 25th 2021 at 12:38:53 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Such groups are smaller in the US, but they do try and take action. Several churches sued against gay marriage bans on the grounds that such bans violated their religious freedom to marry their gay congregants. The cases never went the full distance because the bans were struck down on different grounds, but the attempt was made.
They generally focus on providing material help to people hurt by evangelicals over fixing the reputation issues Christianity has because of evangelicals. Charles has talked a lot about how his local churches are the only thing keeping a lot of people alive.
Edited by Silasw on Feb 25th 2021 at 4:34:41 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran