Is the gaming industry innovating partly for anti-piracy reasons?

Observe some posts here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=m89zm8ot0ow7xgz34inb2h43&page=7

Is there an incentive for videogame companies to develop higher-tech products and innovative designs for the purpose of hindering software piracy?

Note the following:

• It's much more bothersome to download a 500 MB ISO than it is to download a 3 MB (or even 20 MB) cartridge ROM.
• Playing 3D analog-stick games well without a keyboard is quite difficult.
• PS 2, X Box, and Game Cube emulation rarely work perfectly at full speed, even today—even if the emulator itself can work perfectly, chances are you'd need a powerful machine to run the game at full speed, at which point you might as well just buy the system. (Which isn't that expensive anyway; the problem though might be finding rare games that you want, such as ICO for PS 2.)
• Wii, Move, and Kinect motion controls are very difficult to emulate without specific hardware.
• Relatively few people have calibrated stylus pads, and even fewer have stylus-sensitive screens, on which to play DS games.

However, also note the following:

• Nintendo actually stayed with cartridges for the N64 for anti-piracy reasons, and it was this that led to their split with Sony, whose C Ds were much more easily pirated.
• In the later 1990s, 3D gaming itself was on the rise anyway, so the proliferation of 3D games and associated analog-stick controls on consoles was just a logical direction for the industry anyway.
• People have developed USB controllers for every past gaming system, and companies also make (and stores sell) non-official gaming equipment for current consoles, including the Wii.

So, is the contention stated in the thread title valid, and by how much?

Discuss.

If you buy a high-end PC exclusively for emulation, you're an idiot.

The problem with your statement is that you assume a person needs a computer to play pirated software. People who pirate modern games hack their consoles to make them work, and this could be true for last generation as well. Owning the system itself and pirating the games for the system nullifies most of your points and actually explains how cartridges could be an anti-piracy measure, since it is harder to make a pirated N64 cartridge than it is to make a pirated CD-ROM.

What you speak of is emulating a title on PC and it takes a lot of computer horsepower to emulate a system on PC. This is why Xbox 360 and PS3 have a tough time emulating Xbox and PS2 titles, because they don't have the needed horsepower to emulate the Xbox and PS2 itself. Any console that emulates a console one generation back requires the hardware of the previous console in the system itself.

Concerning your first point, the size of a game has increased as technological power has increased. It is less about piracy and more due to the fact that having more sprites and polygons in your game require more space on the disk. This is also the reason why a Blu-Ray Movie takes up more space than a DVD Movie. The Blu-Ray format is technologically better than the DVD format.

Wizard Needs Food Badly

Hey now, that's quite unfair. People can make high end computers for any reason they like, and it it makes emulation easier, it can be worthy enough more many people to buy a new part, if they're emulation enthusiasts. It's something that serves a function and a purpose, who is one to call someone else an idiot for doing something that serves their subjective taste?

I definitely haven't built a computer only for emulation, but one of the things I look forward to when building a better computer, is better emulation performance. I don't like most computer games, so being able to easily click a button and play a classic video game that I enjoy, is quite enjoyable and advantageous. Gamecube emulation isn't perfect yet, but all I have to do, is click Dolphin on my Desktop, and then in Dolphin is an immediate list of all the games I have. PCSX 2 isn't that simple, but the ".Iso selector" does still make things quick and easy. And I can plug-in any controllers for the emulator that I want. And I never have to buy a Memory Card. If these are things you look for, it's an advantage that can be well worth the money.

You're really pushing your subjective tastes of what's a waste of money and what's not on others. If you call someone an idiot for what they built a high end PC for, you're a troll.

Anyway, I think that innovation is done with a bit of both in mind, nowadays. So I think you can at least give some of the blame, onto "piracy prevention", but it's also more than half just "technology moves forward".

edited 23rd Nov '10 12:36:12 PM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Mammalsauce, what if I buy a high-end personal computer in order to play high-end computer games, and then pick up emulation along with it?

Game Guru GG: Ahh, I didn't know about console hacking. That's something I've never known much about, partly because I didn't own a PS 1 until about 2007 (previous console was an SNES, or Super Game Boy if we're being generous).

Now, as for another comment...

"The Blu-Ray format is technologically better than the DVD format."

How so? I know it contains more capacity (and could also be seen as more pirate-unfriendly than the DVD), but apart from that, how is it better than DVD? It would seem to be less good to me since you'd have to buy expensive high-end players in order to view blu-ray discs, whereas DVD is a standard technology these days. (Perhaps this last point will change eventually, though I'd much rather see a move to flash storage than simply expanding disc storage.)

Back on topic...

Most of the emulation that I'm familiar with involves emulating 8-bit and 16-bit systems, which is basically trivial to obtain and accomplish on any modern computer. Hence my unfamiliarity with piracy and emulation issues for systems past that.

Well, one could say if the cost of the new parts necessary to upgrade one's computer (or to buy a new one) exceed the cost of the console and game, then...yeah.

I don't think you're using the word "classic" the way I use it.

^^That was more of a rejection of what the OP was saying. A high-end PC is good for much more than emulation, and buying one exclusively for that reason is a huge waste of money. Also, troll != 'anyone who disagrees with me'.

A high-end PC costs around a thousand dollars (if you build it from scratch, and if you're just upgrading a good video card and processor are a couple hundred dollars each). A modded console and a few blank DV Ds costs less than the card itself.

Sure if you look forward to better emulation as one of the aspects when upgrading that is perfectly valid. But if you buy a high end PC exclusively to pirate video games you are pretty much mathematically an idiot.

edit

GMH: That's perfectly valid, the quote in the first post implies that if someone is to buy an upgraded PC JUST to play kingdom hearts, they'd be getting ripped off. Which they absolutely would be if they didn't use it for something else. That doesn't by any means make a high-end PC a waste of money just because the owner wants to use it for that single obscure reason.

edited 23rd Nov '10 12:57:26 PM by Mammalsauce

You not merely "disagreeing" with someone, you're disagreeing with someone's taste and flaming them for it. There are people out there who want to emulate for more than just the money efficiency of being able to play.

If I was pretty wealthy, I can seem myself wanting to pay the premium for a computer that could emulate newer consoles as well as possible, even if owning several of those consoles and all of the games. Just because it's cheaper doesn't mean there are other advantages. Ideally, I'd like to play as many as possible as I like on one computer. Quickly and easily. And if I could do that as well on a computer someday, as a console, I think I'd never touch the original consoles. Just because it would be better on the computer. Other than out of an occasional nostalgia. And that would mostly be like plugging in an old Japanese Super Famicom and Mother 2 for no other reason that just to be silly and frivolous.

It's really more of a "how much money you have" to be spending on things. It's definitely an efficiency thing, and Play Station 2 emulation definitely isn't as efficient to buy for as one could buy a Play Station 2, yet. But it's definitely not a "stupid" thing. There's also an odd "high" some people get from "conquering" a system.

Speaking of this "money stupid", thing, though. Ironically, I used to make topic at other forums frequently about where to buy modded Play Station 2's and how to go about it most safely and efficiently. And I actually got several people saying "modded Ps2's are too rare now. Why are you looking for them now? You're too late and they're rare. You should have bought them years back when they were good to buy." ...*facepalm*

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Actually, I think that developing more high-tech products isn't about hindering piracy. It's more like innovating systems for the sole purpose of people continuing to buy them. I mean, if you want and/or need a more powerful PC, you have to change it every few years just to keep track with all the new technology and software. That way companies just continue to do business selling their products. Plus, the need for innovation is also just a way to be competitive on the market with all the other big companies and corporations. You just create something newer and more powerful, with better functions than older products or those sold by other companies. That way people would want to buy and you'll stay in business.

Please don't feed the trolls!

^^I don't see the point in emulating just for the sake of emulating unless you're a developer. Sure, I've emulated some obscure consoles just because I could, but I didn't spend a dime or any effort to do so. Buying a PC to emulate a PS 2, just so you can say "hey look at me I can emulate PS 2!"... so what? If you're rich, well I guess you have enough money to waste it as you'd like, but still...

On the original topic, developers have certainly "innovated" (I think that's entirely the wrong word) things like the blu-ray to combat piracy. Games like Dragon Age and Star Wars TFU (and a lot of others) are like 20-30 GB per install and most of that is ballast just to keep people from torrenting them. And at east for the PS 3 the Blu ray barrier seems to work, they have cracked it but it's not something the average user can do.

The input devices like the DS screen and Wii remote are absolutely not barriers to emulation. The Wii remote and Wii motion plus are emulated pretty much perfectly already, and the DS's touchscreen is so simplistic there's really no obstacle overcome at all. Kinect might be a problem, but there isn't even an Xbox 360 emulator out yet so we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.

A Blu-Ray movie is meant to be outputted at an HD signal, whereas a DVD Movie is only an SD signal. There is more detail in the picture that goes into making something for an HDTV running at 720p or 1080i than an SD signal running at 480p. This is what I mean by technologically better. A Blu-Ray version of a movie have more details than the DVD version of the same movie. Blu-Ray disks also cost more due to this reason. DVDs were just as expensive compared to the then standard VHS Tapes back in the day.

Of course, it is rather obvious that media is moving towards digital distribution over expanding the quality of optical disks.

Well, there's your issue. 8-bit and 16-bit emulators for PC have had over ten years to be perfected! Heck, the so called good emulators for those systems didn't actually appear until well into the PlayStation 1's lifecycle. It was just as hard to emulate NES, SNES, and Genesis games on the PCs of their era.

edited 23rd Nov '10 1:33:08 PM by GameGuruGG

Wizard Needs Food Badly

Like I said, it's just easier and has more options. If I was rich, I'd want to just wake up in the morning and press a button on a controller from the bed. And quickly click on whatever game it was I wanted to play with little effort. And use one controller I like for nearly all systems. With a large 1080p LED TV, you can just play games for many systems without plugging in everything. No need to even get up from the bed, that's relaxing and fun. And there are other advantages of emulation. With the Play Station 1, games look better on a good computer than they do on the Play Station 3. Or that's one less thing to have to pay for in terms of hardware if you want to make Let's Play Videos. And there's plenty more than just being easier than popping in discs or wanting to use an XBOX 360 controller or the like on the Gamecube.

There are just many things you can do with an emulator you can't really do otherwise. What's wrong with paying a premium for advantages if you really want them?

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

There's also the fact that emulators can play game mods.

But convenience is a pretty big issue. For one thing, if I can even emulate on a small-screen laptop, I still get to use a bigger screen than what's available on a GB/GBC/GBA or GG or PSP. (DS is a bit different in that there's at least one emulator that can't expand display size.)

Additionally, sometimes I get to play with graphical quirks. For example, one of the video plugins for ePSXe causes all the 3D effects to be extremely sharp. While this was not present via the original hardware, I surprisingly kinda liked it when I played Castlevania Symphony Of The Night on it.

And there's also out-of-region games and out-of-print rare games.

Finally, I'll say this: What if I have a laptop with no CD drive, but one that I take everywhere I go, but I also have a PS 1 and, say, Mega Man X 4? Why shouldn't I just grab a PS 1 emulator and the X4 ISO (or rip that last one from my own disc), so I can play them whenever I want on my computer? I mean, if I already own the darn system and an official hard copy of the game...

Yes, if you buy an insane level, you can essentially emulate Play Station 2 games pretty well. And much easier Play Station 1 games, I did it pretty well with a $200 bargain laptop. Essentially turning your "Play Station 2", if you bought a computer to mainly do that, into a really large Nintendo DS, except for Play Station 2, now THAT'S cool. Having a Play Station 2 handheld is a lot more advantageous than having that bulky old version. The Play Station 2 slim models aren't that bad, but it's not the same as having a Play Station 2 as a portable handheld.

As I've stated many times before, games also look better, up to at least the Play Station 1, on the computer.

The ultimate home setup definitely wouldn't be having one big TV to play and pop in Play Station 2 games into. At the current moment it'd be a Play Station 3, XBOX 360, and Nintendo Wii(the Wii soon to be conquered), plugged in to one of the Televisions, and a setup of several 55" 1080 LED LCD Televisions, 70+ inch Large Format Displays, and well above 1080p 30" Computer monitors together plugged into a computer. For a rich person, the original wouldn't even compare. And certainly wouldn't be stupid. In the traditional means, you wouldn't so easily get well over 100 inches total of Playstation 2 playing screen by the typical means.

Of course, that's just one thing you could use it for. But aside from a rich person's projector room, this would be the best way to make a setup because you can use the same media to several screens very easily. It's also good for all sorts of other media like those high end 1920×1080+ quality movies.

There's also the fact that owning a system, even used, is just one system. A computer can emulate several. All of those systems, cards, controllers, and other things, add up. Bringing it all into one place can still be economically beneficial in some ways. Possibly. At the very least, you might not lose a lot of money to build a good computer. Especially if you're considering building it for something remotely other than that. I doubt anyone just wants games out of a computer.

I can imagine, if I were rich, aside from just wanting a theatre room, it would be nice to play Play Station 2 games on 6 or so 70 inch Large Format Displays or LED LCD T Vs if they also exist.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

I've been meaning to play through Symphony Of The Night in a gigantic lecture hall or movie theater someday.

Though I have to make sure I plan my route and pace things correctly such that I don't do things like step into the Clock Tower area early and cause the audience to have "already heard it" by the time I actually go through that area...

edited 23rd Nov '10 3:12:16 PM by GlennMagusHarvey

70" large format display for gaming...pass. If a guy's trying to piss away several thousands of dollars just to show he's rich, that'll more than work. And it'll make him look like an idiot.

We sure do throw around the word "idiot" around here.

People who have nice things are idiots. Yes, that makes total sense.

edited 24th Nov '10 3:46:52 AM by Ukonkivi

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

No, everyone wants nice things. People who waste their money for frivolous reasons are idiots.

A 70'' screen does sound nice though, and would not at all make someone an idiot if they actually used it.

I'd hate to play or watch anything on a screen that big. It'd highlight every flaw and pixellation on anything. I recently got a 40" TV and I considered that pretty much the biggest I'd consider getting.

On the one hand, the emulation software is certainly more convenient (particularly save states and fast-forward). On the other, I'd have to play games on my computer, which I don't like doing, because I like sitting back on the couch and using a controller.

This is definitely one of my concerns.

Then again, I grew up on totally pixelated stuff anyway, so it might not matter...

I'm so freakin' spoiled by fast-forward on NES, SNES, and GBA emulation. So. Freakin'. Spoiled. ESPECIALLY on RP Gs.

Not sure who this "we" is, but since the comment is indirectly responding to mine, I'll state, no, I rarely call anyone an idiot.

Oh no, you're not getting away with that one.

It makes great sense in the context and definition in which I used "idiot"; specifically not directing it as an insult or a pejorative comment directed at any member here.

I'm a man, anything that arguably needs a forklift to bring that beast into the house has to be great; bigger is better.

Realistically, I wish I had the money + room to justify a projector.

I suppose by context, you must mean "joke".

To be honest, I don't like desktops, I've only used them for years because it was all SDTV vs. VGA and wasn't worth using a computer on a TV for years. Those years are starting to fade away, aside from the 1080p limitations of HDT Vs, which isn't that bad.

I'm wanting to finally buy 40-50 inch screen someday to do my computing on, and just hook everything into, honestly. I'm not rich, but a LED TV of that size wouldn't cost more than a good computer, and I'm going for a good computer. It makes sense to me, part of what you're buying a good graphics card for, is good graphics.

I tried out using a computer on someone else's house that had this kind of setup one time, it was large and beautiful. And I didn't have any hard of a time reading it, just because it was a few more feet away from me.

It's a fun idea to add up a bunch of screens. And I'm definitely either going to save up at this point for a 30 inch monitor with higher than 1080p, or a 50 inch LED TV. Either way, it's going to be more fun than to have this 1080p 22" monitor alone.

Honestly, by the way, it's really either fuzziness or pixelation. Fuzziness isn't much better. And there are ways to simulate it, I'm sure, even if I haven't tried them. And I don't think it's a big deal to me, as it don't matter how big of a screen someone uses ZNES with the filters on, it only looks greater and greater.

I can only imagine how awesome it might be, to play Mega Man X on an Imax screen. If I had several million dollars, I would find a way to do that.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about combating piracy? I'm pretty sure it's not the industry that's innovating as a direct response, it's merely a side-effect of the progression of technology.

We only need to look at PC gaming in the late 90's to see this progression of technology.

EDIT: I think I just argued for the title of the thread. Oh well. Admittedly, there are direct attempts by companies to combat it, however, they tend to be hit-and/or-miss, with the case mostly being "miss."

edited 26th Nov '10 6:27:48 PM by RocketDude

"Hipsters: the most dangerous gang in the US." - Pacific Mackerel

Haven't read through this entire thread yet, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents:

Cent One

I don't know much about computing power myself, but I know this train of actions from personal experience:

• Got involved with retro ROMs. Encounter Harvest Moon, which I'd never even seen advertised back when it was being marketed (probably because we likely didn't have a TV at the time). Fell in love with the game.
• Went out and bought secondhand copies of two other games in the series (again, they'd come and gone commercially before I was even aware they existed): PS 1 version and PS 2 version.
• Didn't actually have a PS 1 or PS 2 at the time. (I still don't have a PS 2, but somewhere along the way I did get a PS 1 somehow.) Tried to figure out how to play my games.
• Ended up choosing emulation over buying a system (which would've laid me out over $100 easily). Managed to get the PS 1 version working okay. I think at some point I had the PS 2 version working too.
  • Benefits of emulation over console: screenshots, save states, and the ability to cheat my way past the nearly impossible swimming contest through slowing down the frame rate. Also more than just 3 or 6 save slots, and better backups of saves.
• Got Katamari Damacy as well, still not having a PS 2. Couldn't make it run on the emulator at all.

Anyway, part of what got to me about the console vs. emulation thing was this: It was technically illegal to get the emulator; yet (from what I heard at the time) each and every console of that generation was sold at a loss of profit. I didn't understand why the company would prefer I pay them money for a product worth more than whatever I paid them, so I opted for emulation.

Cent Two

I think the console games will just increase in technology that we can't easily mimic on the PC regardless of piracy concerns. So that's probably not a big factor.

However, on the flip side, the way in which game companies are dealing with piracy — in ways that harm their actual customers while doing little to stop actual piracy activities — is probably doing them a lot more harm than good. It's kind of like the whole airlines fiasco is going down: The pat-downs probably won't lead to any net gain in security, but they are certainly making it difficult for the average flier, and pretty soon a lot of people are going to get so fed up that they'll take any alternative to actually going through those airports.

So, likewise, if anti-piracy measures continue to disrupt the gaming experience of the average consumer, pretty soon they'll be far less willing to pay good money for games they can't even be sure they'll be able to run... or able to use two years after they've bought them.

edited 27th Nov '10 3:14:18 AM by Kilyle

Only the curious have, if they live, a tale worth telling at all.

I've been told that partially why Japanese companies prefer consoles, isn't just the support of the status quo, but due to aversion to piracy.

Which is sad, because it doesn't stop piracy. It just does nothing more than shun PC gamers from much of the best games.

Genkidama for Japan, even if you don't have money, you can help![1]

I thought consoles were easier to design games for due to much less hardware variation.