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Umineko Visual Novels : the Live But Delayed Blogination
Lequinni
Lequinni
sauleha
arbane
(edited by: arbane)
Jhiday
Lequinni
Maria also died early on in Episode 3, don't forget.
arbane
Jhiday
(edited by: Jhiday)
Jhiday
Heatth
Jhiday
Heatth
arbane
(edited by: arbane)
Heatth
Jhiday
(edited by: Jhiday)
Heatth
(edited by: Heatth)
Jhiday
Heatth
Jhiday
(edited by: Jhiday)
Cool I will be waiting. For both the WMG and EP7, I mean. I like the "lots of shorts updates" style better, anyway so this is a plus to me. It gives you more time to deliberate at each scene so, while each update is shorter, there is more updates, making it bigger in text (at last was that way for EP5 and EP6, I think.
Heatth
74.105.17.177
Darn. I really wanted Beato to still be alive at the end of EP 2, but I can't think of a good loophole around this. Sigh.
Jhiday
76.175.202.223
One thought on Episode 4: From Episode 2, we know that someone found the hidden gold, and Beatrice red-texts that Everyone acknowledged Kinzo at the family meeting!. My guess is that Shkanon announced their finding the gold to everyone gathered, announced that they were taking Kinzo's place as the new head, and then Stuff Happened.
arbane
(edited by: arbane)
Awesome. As I expected (by seeing your general remarks), your main theory is very similar to mine, yet it is quite different in the details. So, please allow me compare our theories a bit and present a bit of nit picks. I naturally do have some foreknowledge regarding EP7, of course, but I promise avoid the topics realized in this Episode as much as I can, to avoid letting some spoiler slip.
First, I am obviously in accord that
Shannon = Kanon = Beato (and yes, there are people who still denies this). I originally thought this was something I had to swallow, but that were unbelievable, since Krauss family does obviously not know. But, I guess, if Genji and Kumasawa helps, it could be explained. I would add that Kanon 'birth' must happen after Kinzo's death, otherwise he would also have to be in the secret, witch is unlikely, I think.
I will then propose a small backup theory (that mostly fits yours): EP1 and EP2 are what Beatrice, i.e.Shannon, was
planning to do, while the rest are scenarios where something goes
wrong. This is based on the Message Bottles and, more important, in the 'Forgeries' we learn of in EP6. The message bottles were written by 'Beatrice', and are scenaries she imagined for her plans. The rest is Hachijo playing 'what if'.
That being said, lets go Episode by Episode:
Episode 1:
I frankly never even considered Eva helping the murder here. Personally, of the 4 siblings, she, Krauss and their spouses are the ones I find less likely to commit cold blood murder. You theory is plausible, of course, but if we think through, Evan and Hideyoshi involvement are not needed. Outside the first twilight, Shannon can pull it alone. Even the first can be done without help, if she has guns or used poison.
Also, there must consider why would Eva agree. One must remember that, with 3 siblings dead, the last one will be the one more likely to be considered culprit. We know the police cleared Eva in Ange future, but could Eva (or anyone) predict that far?
Episode 2:
As Arbane said, Shannon was pretty much unmistakably dead. Her stake is the only one not firm, which is explained if it was suicide (something like
Rika in Meakashi I suppose).
Another thing to note, is that this time I agree Rosa have, at some level collaborate. That would explain the Capel lock (it was never locked) and why we saw her with Beatrice. Naturally, despite helping a bit, she is not found of helping a murder, which is why she is so aggressive against the servants (who she
knew were on it). What is not so easy to explain is why Rosa suddenly decided to run away with Maria in the end.
Episode 3:
The one I disagree the most. I don't think Kyrie and Rudolf were on it. In fact, I will stick with the old "Eva did it" theory.
What goes 'wrong' here, by my theory, is Eva (and Rosa) actually solved the Epitaph.
We agree as far the First Twilight goes. After that, Eva solves the Epitaph, becomes "Beatrice" and as a result, made the "real" Beatrice give up the murdering (yes, I am assuming she will actually follow her letter). Unfortunately, Eva accidentally killed Rosa (they struggle and Rosa slipped on the rain) and, in panic "silenced" Maria (note Eva starts to get really disturbed after that).
Rudolf and Kyrie called Hideyoshi out for the reason Battler and Virgilia exposed originally, to interrogate him about the fake alibi. They end up killing themselves in the hotblood of the discussion. The stakes are placed by either Nanjo (who was not be aware the plans changed) or Shannon (to... make things interesting?).
Krauss and Natsuhi are killed by Eva, who see no solution other then finish them after the 3 new deaths. Nanjo is killed by either Hideyoshi or Kyrie on their last breath (he staked them or, at last, lied on his autopsy). Eva kills Battler after he accuses her. I agree about George, though.
I have no much reason for that other then I believe Beatrice has no much reason to lie in the letter. However, this is also to support my theory about the letters and the forgeries.
Episode 4:
I am very sad you have no clue here, because I don't either. ^^; What I can suppose is that the "what gone wrong" is the cause for the early murders. All Episodes have the murdering happening after the first day, so it is safe to assume this is the culprit original goal. My guess is Shannon was discovered early here, so she had to take hostages.
Episode 5:
I am really impressed here, because I wouldn't be able to reason that far. Your conclusions about the midnight conference and Shannon are very interesting.
However, there is a gap in your theory. I believe it was said in
red the 6 of the first twilight have, in fact, died (the
time of the dead, is, of course, hidden). This goes against my own theory as well, but I can't think anyone other then Shannon to be able, or have reason, to do the killings.
Anyway, I loved your theories. While I prefer mine, thanks to you I will have to rethink my own conclusions about EP1 and EP3. Your theory about EP5 is quite telling as well.
Sorry for the massiveness of my comment. And also sorry if such thing was uncalled for. If you find it annoying I may edit it out (I think I overdid a bit by stating my own theories as well).
There is something I have to say: you do realize the TIPS menu after each Episode (the one you access in the main menu) may contain some
Easter Eggs? I am not talking about the extra tips, but the 'extras' you can find in the character profiles. You know, you can change the normal sprites for the alternatives ones (like Shannon and George in EP2) and even find hidden profiles like Sista556 in EP4 onward (you can revive her as well). More important, you can 'execute'
Erika in EP6(but not EP5), both profiles actually. There is a hint there one can not ignore.
Heatth
arbane
(edited by: arbane)
Really? That would make things simpler. However, we still have Krauss death. He was killed just after the phone call. That I am pretty sure of.
Heatth
Jhiday
Heatth
@Jhiday : Just gonna clear up some details regarding EP 3 and what the hells happened in EP 4.
Prepare yourselves for a
Wall Of Text.
The details of EP 3’s closed room chain are a bit confusing, but here I go:
The order in which the adults found the corpses is: Shannon, Kumasawa, Gohda, Genji, Kinzo and Kanon. We know that they are all 'dead' and that there is no one hiding in the room, but the order in which they searched the rooms is key: they first check on Shannon, and Nanjo confirms that she is dead, but he could have easily been conspiring with her. They take her master key, close the room, check on all the corpses up until Kinzo, find the key to the chapel… and during this time, Shannon/Beato goes to the chapel (which was presumably open), dresses as Kanon, closed the door of the chapel from the inside (it probably has a manual lock) and plays dead. She took Kanon’s master key and the key to the parlor (which she had used to open and close the room after the adults closed it), and left it there for the adults to find. Nanjo of course covers for her again.
That should be enough to clear the details on that one. It’s worth noting that if they had decided to force open another room first, like say the second floor’s guestroom, the whole thing would have been blown apart.
As for EP 4… well, it’s a hell of a complicated theory, and
potentially contains SPOILERS for the Howdunnit and Whydunnit.
However, I would like to say that everything below could have been reasoned out from the first 4 Episodes.
We already know that Shannon is Kanon. We already know that she (or he) is also Beatrice. Episode 5 confirmed to us via red text that Beatrice was in possession of the gold, but you could have guessed from the first 4 Episodes that she already had it. Maria and a whole bunch of people say it, and Maria turned out to be right about a lot of things, including the fact that Beatrice ‘exists’.
We also know via Ange in EP 4 that some if not all of the remaining family members received money from ‘Beatrice’, and that the cards with PIN numbers came in letters meant to arrive after the whole Rokkenjima Incident (because they were sent one day before the incident). If anything, this can only mean that Beatrice was planning on using her gold to coerce the servants into helping her kill everybody and that the money she promised to each of them (100 million yen IIRC) would arrive after the whole incident was over.
What proof is there that she actually did this? Aside from having little difficulty to convince the servants into helping her, Rudolf said in EP 1 that he expected to be killed. I think that Rudolf may have had second thoughts about Beatrice’s whole plan, and upon informing to Beatrice that he refused to do things for , he expected her to kill him as well. He simply didn’t have the nerve to tell Battler and Kyrie as well (Speaking of those two, Beatrice paying Rudolf money to force him to reveal that Asumu is not Battler’s mother could work its way into this theory, and it would explain how she knew about it, and was able to say it in red.).
Where am I going with all this? If you have ten fricking tons of gold, it wouldn’t be hard to convince a lot of people to do things that would normally be against their nature. How do I know that she convinced a lot of people? Gohda and Kumasawa informed the cousins in the guesthouse that Kinzo had gone mad and had started killing everyone, but we already know that Kinzo is dead and that Gohda isn’t even supposed to know he’s dead.
The whole thing was Beatrice convincing people to do and say stuff that has already been scripted in advance (and that she herself eventually fulfilled to make it look true).
I don’t know how she killed Gohda and Kumasawa. That seems like the hardest part of the Howdunnit. It might be possible if you could shoot Gohda and Kumasawa from the shutter to the storeroom, but I don’t remember the details on its structure.
However, I know what happened near the end. Beatrice talks to Battler and tells him to atone for his sin from 6 years ago. We are told that Battler’s sin is forgetting something. We know that this sin isn’t against Beatrice. And we also know that Shannon and Kanon are Beatrice. We also know that Battler notes that Beato’s eyes seem to be saying that it’s a sin against her, even though that was just denied by the red. Therefore, the sin is against Shannon.
What could he have possibly done against her?
EP 3. Before any of the murders, Jessica asks Shannon if she remembers anything embarrassing that Battler might have said.
“Let's see. ......I'm sure that he said something like this when he left. 'I'll be back, <see you again>. I'll come to greet you riding on a white horse.'"
“Without love, it cannot be seen”… the truth, and the motive. Shannon loved Battler, and Battler himself admitted in an internal monologue that he did used to have a crush on Shannon.
And we already know that he didn’t come back because he had a fight with Rudolf. In the six years before he returned, things happened and she hatched a plan to kill everyone on Rokkenjima.
(A bit of a side-note here, related to the Whydunnit. George loves Shannon. Jessica has a crush on Kanon. Maria is treated by Beatrice as a very dear (maybe her only) friend. Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice developed feelings for each other, and in fact started flirting with one another from the moment they met. In other words, s/he was the source of affection of all 4 cousins. This plays very heavily into the Whydunnit.)
So when Battler says that he doesn't remember his promise, she is heartbroken, and most likely, asks Maria to die with her, in peace. I guess you could call it a double-suicide pact. Shannon’s corpse was found near the well which leads to the Kuwadorian, and her death is explained via suicide: she shot herself in the forehead while leaving a stake lying around, and after shooting, the gun falls thorugh the bars of the well.
Maria was killed by poison. Maybe Beatrice convinced her that drinking it was a way to go to the Golden Land, or maybe she chose to kill herself as part of the test.
Battler waits for a whole day, but nothing more happens. At midnight on the second day, he is killed. And that’s where it ends.
Wall Of Text ends here.
Crinias
PataHikari
arbane
76.175.202.223
Lion's gender is Lion.
PataHikari
Well, fuck you. I hadn't noticed it, but the narrative is indeed taking great pains to keep Lion's gender ambiguous. Fuck.
Jhiday
(edited by: Jhiday)
76.175.202.223
Oh, I don't mind too much. But... well, you'll see in the next instalment.
Jhiday
76.175.202.223
Implied?
PataHikari
Jhiday
76.175.202.223
PataHikari
Jhiday
PataHikari
76.175.202.223
PataHikari
PataHikari
Crinias
76.175.202.223
Jhiday
76.175.202.223
George totally hid the letter.
PataHikari
71.208.210.74
Battler totally just forgot.
Anarchy
How exactly does it fail in explaining it? In how Kanon arrives at the island or why he is there?
Crinias
72.215.72.22
I think the "Quadrillion" inscription on the chapel was mentioned back in Episode 2.
arbane
Jhiday
Crinias
PataHikari
Anarchy
I've been re-reading the episodes with this information in mind, I've done up to 3, so let's copy-past that info so far, here's my final statements on how they were done, I'll add in
EP 4's once I finish that one.
First game, first twilight. Six corpses in the gardening shed.
Illusions to illusions. The corpse that cannot return to earth returns to illusions.
There are only five corpses. The fifth, "Shannon's" corpse, is a fake, either Hideyoshi is lying or he is mistaken.
First game, second twilight. Two corpses are close together in a closed room protected by a chain.
Illusions to illusions. A chain of illusions can only hold back illusions.
The room was never locked in the first place. Kanon cut the chain and claimed it was a closed room. Genji and Kumasawa collaborated.
First game, foruth twilight. The old Head from the closed room study, confined in a schorching furnace.
Illusions to illusions. Let the man of illusions go to where he belongs.
Kinzo has been dead for over a year. To create the illusion that he was murdered, his corpse had a stake driven through it, and his body burned.
First game, fifth twilight. The last moments of the sacrificed boy with a stake in his chest.
Illusions to illusions. The witch and stake of illusions can pierce naught but illusions.
Kanon was never murdered, the corpse was either fake or pretending to be dead. The blood was fake, it was all fake.
First game, sixth, seventh, and eighth twilights. Three corpses lying in the closed room of the singing girl.
Illusions to illusions. Illusions are the blind girl's song. Illusion of a closed room.
Yasu had the keys. She unlocked the door, and told Maria to sing as she sacrificed the three. There's a chance the corpses are fake, after all, the three are her accomplices.
Second game, first twilight. Six with their stomachs split in a closed room chapel.
Illusions to illusions. The gold truth locks the lock of illusions
The door was never locked in the first place.
Second game, second twilight. The corpses of the two who are close are not close.
Illusions to illusions. Illusions who have fulfilled their role do not leave a corpse.
Kanon died yet he leaves no corpse, because Yasu has no need for him anymore. She left Jessica behind and locked the door.
Second game, fourth, fifth, and sixth twilights. In Natsuhi's closed room, none are left alive.
Earth to Earth. No one would dispute that a coffin is a closed room.
The final stage, the game has ended, Shannon died, Yasu killed George and Gohda, and pretended to be dead. She left once the others had.
Second game, seventh and eighth twilights. The two sliced to death by the red-eyed phantom.
Earth to Earth. Illusions to illusions. No Illusion can create a corpse.
They were not killed in the servants room, they were killed later, but before George and Gohda died. They were made to look like the final sacrifices.
Third game, first twilight. Six corpses connected by the linked closed rooms.
Illusions to illusions. In a closed room ring, the end and the beginning overlap.
Yasu faked her death as Shannon, when the adults checked up on her and moved on, she ran over to the chapel as Kanon, and faked her death there.
Third game, second twilight. The corpses of mother and child lay togetheri in the rose garden.
Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments told.
Rosa and Eva have an argument about the gold, it gets heated, and Eva kills Rosa by accident. In her panic, she kills Maria as well.
Thrid game, fourth fifth and sixth twilights. Three corpses lying in the mansion.
Earth to Earth. No falsehoods in their final moments told.
Eva panicked and shot Kyrie and Rudolf, and Hideyoshi died accidentally.
Third game, seventh and eighth twilights. The corpses of husband and wife lay exposed under the arbor.
Earth to Earth. The obvious culprit wields a mutable blade.
Eva strangled them.
PataHikari
(edited by: Filip)
PataHikari
Jhiday
arbane
76.175.202.223
Crinias
PataHikari
Jhiday
76.175.202.223
It's because she loves to hurt people and Ange is just her current toy.
PataHikari
I believe the fall caused mental problems and being born from incest cause sterility
166.216.226.192
Now comes the wait and the theorizing for Episode 8.
PataHikari
Sunflowers
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- Sometime over the holiday period, I'm gonna finally finish my commentary of EP 6 AND post a comprehensive WMG entry taking into account the huge reveal in there and how it impacts all the previous episodes. I want to make my ideas clears about that before delving into EP 7.
- Then, from the beginning of January onwards, I'll try and do a proper liveblog for EP 7. I've managed to stay nearly entirely unspoiled (apart from the existence of new members of the Ushiromiya family that I've got no information whatsoever about), so this should be fun.
I'd love to get this back on track faster, but the next fortnight looks very busy for me, and moreover I'll be away from my regular computer for most of it. So I'm trying to be realistic here.potentiallycontains SPOILERS for the Howdunnit and Whydunnit. However, I would like to say that everything below could have been reasoned out from the first 4 Episodes. We already know that Shannon is Kanon. We already know that she (or he) is also Beatrice. Episode 5 confirmed to us via red text that Beatrice was in possession of the gold, but you could have guessed from the first 4 Episodes that she already had it. Maria and a whole bunch of people say it, and Maria turned out to be right about a lot of things, including the fact that Beatrice ‘exists’. We also know via Ange in EP 4 that some if not all of the remaining family members received money from ‘Beatrice’, and that the cards with PIN numbers came in letters meant to arrive after the whole Rokkenjima Incident (because they were sent one day before the incident). If anything, this can only mean that Beatrice was planning on using her gold to coerce the servants into helping her kill everybody and that the money she promised to each of them (100 million yen IIRC) would arrive after the whole incident was over. What proof is there that she actually did this? Aside from having little difficulty to convince the servants into helping her, Rudolf said in EP 1 that he expected to be killed. I think that Rudolf may have had second thoughts about Beatrice’s whole plan, and upon informing to Beatrice that he refused to do things for , he expected her to kill him as well. He simply didn’t have the nerve to tell Battler and Kyrie as well (Speaking of those two, Beatrice paying Rudolf money to force him to reveal that Asumu is not Battler’s mother could work its way into this theory, and it would explain how she knew about it, and was able to say it in red.). Where am I going with all this? If you have ten fricking tons of gold, it wouldn’t be hard to convince a lot of people to do things that would normally be against their nature. How do I know that she convinced a lot of people? Gohda and Kumasawa informed the cousins in the guesthouse that Kinzo had gone mad and had started killing everyone, but we already know that Kinzo is dead and that Gohda isn’t even supposed to know he’s dead. The whole thing was Beatrice convincing people to do and say stuff that has already been scripted in advance (and that she herself eventually fulfilled to make it look true). I don’t know how she killed Gohda and Kumasawa. That seems like the hardest part of the Howdunnit. It might be possible if you could shoot Gohda and Kumasawa from the shutter to the storeroom, but I don’t remember the details on its structure. However, I know what happened near the end. Beatrice talks to Battler and tells him to atone for his sin from 6 years ago. We are told that Battler’s sin is forgetting something. We know that this sin isn’t against Beatrice. And we also know that Shannon and Kanon are Beatrice. We also know that Battler notes that Beato’s eyes seem to be saying that it’s a sin against her, even though that was just denied by the red. Therefore, the sin is against Shannon. What could he have possibly done against her? EP 3. Before any of the murders, Jessica asks Shannon if she remembers anything embarrassing that Battler might have said. “Let's see. ......I'm sure that he said something like this when he left. 'I'll be back, <see you again>. I'll come to greet you riding on a white horse.'" “Without love, it cannot be seen”… the truth, and the motive. Shannon loved Battler, and Battler himself admitted in an internal monologue that he did used to have a crush on Shannon. And we already know that he didn’t come back because he had a fight with Rudolf. In the six years before he returned, things happened and she hatched a plan to kill everyone on Rokkenjima. (A bit of a side-note here, related to the Whydunnit. George loves Shannon. Jessica has a crush on Kanon. Maria is treated by Beatrice as a very dear (maybe her only) friend. Meta-Battler and Meta-Beatrice developed feelings for each other, and in fact started flirting with one another from the moment they met. In other words, s/he was the source of affection of all 4 cousins. This plays very heavily into the Whydunnit.) So when Battler says that he doesn't remember his promise, she is heartbroken, and most likely, asks Maria to die with her, in peace. I guess you could call it a double-suicide pact. Shannon’s corpse was found near the well which leads to the Kuwadorian, and her death is explained via suicide: she shot herself in the forehead while leaving a stake lying around, and after shooting, the gun falls thorugh the bars of the well. Maria was killed by poison. Maybe Beatrice convinced her that drinking it was a way to go to the Golden Land, or maybe she chose to kill herself as part of the test. Battler waits for a whole day, but nothing more happens. At midnight on the second day, he is killed. And that’s where it ends. Wall Of Text ends here.Important Links