Line #60 Main/AmbiguousStartOfDarkness


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6	->''"Oh, you got to talking with Ra's, huh? Does it make it easier for you to think my little dip in his fountain of youth turned me rabid? Or is this just the ''real'' me?"''
7	-->-- '''Red Hood''', ''WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood''
8
9	A FaceHeelTurn can happen for many reasons. Perhaps the character is WeakWilled. Perhaps they were [[BreakTheCutie broken]] [[WoobieDestroyerOfWorlds beyond]] [[BeingTorturedMakesYouEvil repair]] and [[GoMadFromTheRevelation went mad from the revelation]]. Maybe they are BrainwashedAndCrazy. There is always a precise moment when they turn, [[StartOfDarkness or begin to turn]], to the other side.
10
11	But sometimes there isn't. Sometimes the character has slowly been turning off-screen and you are only shown that they have crossed over at some point. Sometimes [[MoreThanMindControl being brainwashed takes time.]] Perhaps they were EvilAllAlong, and they were actually playing you the whole time, or they ''were'' [[ManipulativeBastard still playing you]], but originally for good reasons. Maybe they were always an AntiHero, but at some point off screen they JumpedOffTheSlipperySlope. For whatever reason, the audience is not shown the exact moment when the character has [[FaceHeelTurn crossed the line]] and whether or not they were EvilAllAlong or just [[MoralEventHorizon went]] [[HeWhoFightsMonsters too]] [[BloodKnight far]]. Everything before the official FaceHeelTurn is left to AlternativeCharacterInterpretation.
12
13	Most of the time this is used when a character is BrainwashedAndCrazy, has a SplitPersonalityTakeover, or a [[DemonicPossession victim of possession]]. Sometimes the process takes a long time and there is no clear turning point shown when [[SplitPersonalityTakeover they are no longer who they used to be.]] To make matters more confusing, it usually happens to a ManipulativeBastard, since [[HiddenAgendaVillain much of their true motives are behind closed doors anyway.]]
14
15	This only applies to a character who is established to be good or at least not-as-threatening at one point previously, but TookALevelInJerkass. Some characters are introduced as a fully evil, and though it is possible they have a FreudianExcuse or were good once, it is either never explored or [[{{Backstory}} is outright stated]] [[StartOfDarkness or shown]]. CharacterDevelopment must be occurring in some form.
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17	This is AmbiguouslyEvil when applied to the StartOfDarkness. It only applies to a character that was shown to be good in the past or earlier in the story; if they were always a bad person but just covered it up it's EvilAllAlong. The NotSoWellIntentionedExtremist likely has this question raised in terms of whether they were ever genuinely well-intentioned. A villain with a MultipleChoicePast likely involves this. Sub-trope of AmbiguousSituation.
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19	----
20	!!Examples:
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22	[[foldercontrol]]
23
24	[[folder:Anime and Manga]]
25	* ''Manga/AttackOnTitan'': [[spoiler:Eren Yeager]]. The conventional thinking would be that TheReveal that [[spoiler:humanity was in fact not extinct outside the three walls, and that the Titans were sent because most of the rest of the world wants to exterminate the people within the walls]] caused him to JumpOffTheSlipperySlope, which ultimately resulted in him becoming an OmnicidalManiac. However, [[spoiler:Eren]] always had a violent and aggressive streak to him, having few friends as a child and engaging in TroublingUnchildlikeBehavior, such as when he [[spoiler:eagerly took on and killed two grown men and showed no signs of angst afterwards, as well as his hatred of and obsession over killing Titans, even before they killed his mother]]. Therefore, there's an argument to be made that nothing about [[spoiler:Eren]] changed; he was always someone who was determined to wipe out anyone or anything that stood in his way or that he saw as his enemies, and he didn't stray from this path even when his enemies switched from mindless monsters to [[spoiler:other humans]].
26	* In ''Manga/DeathNote'', it is ambiguous whether or not [[Characters/DeathNoteLightYagami Light Yagami]] was a sociopath even before he obtained the Death Note. It is both possible that he numbed himself as a defense mechanism to help cope with killing, even if for good reasons, or if he was always heartless but never had the means or reasons to kill anything. Especially called into question during the MemoryGambit due to AmnesiacDissonance. For his part, Near is convinced that Light was ''always'' messed up in the head, and argues that he wouldn't have used the Death Note like he did if that wasn't the case.
27	** In-depth examination of the character makes all of this even more confusing considering that we know very little about his interaction with his peers and his personal life before picking up the notebook. It is vaguely implied that he was adored by his peers and was a model student; however, when his memory is extinguished, we notice that he has an incredible lack of emotional intelligence and a HairTriggerTemper, even without the influence of the notebook.
28	* ''Anime/DragonBallSuper'': There's some ambiguity on whether Zamasu was already going to turn evil without Goku shaking up his views on gods and mortals. He already shows disdain for mortals, and Future Zamasu doesn't hesitate to join [[spoiler:Goku Black]] [[FinalSolution in his Zero Mortals Plan]] when learning he's [[AlternateSelf an alternate self]], however the interactions with Goku clearly show him becoming more extreme. [[Manga/DragonballSuper The manga adaptation]] avoids any ambiguity by Zamasu never meeting Goku in the present, [[AdaptationalJerkass portraying him]] as a BitchInSheepsClothing from the start.
29	* In ''Manga/EdensZero'', where just about every antagonist is a [[HateSink deplorable piece of work]], the small handful of villainous backstories don't delve into any detail other than how nice they appeared to be.
30	** Drakken Joe is briefly shown to have been a [[UsedToBeASweetKid sweet child]] who simply wanted to live longer than his [[YourDaysAreNumbered fifteen-year lifespan]] and [[IJustWantToHaveFriends make friends]]. There's no indication of when or how he grew into a ruthless LoanShark who built his business around putting people through [[AFateWorseThanDeath fates worse than death]] so he could [[spoiler:[[LifeDrinker leech off of their life force]] to sustain his own life, which has since surpassed [[ReallySevenHundredYearsOld 200 years]].]]
31	** Madame Kurenai's story is as follows: she was a poor mother who left her only daughter to provide money, succumbed to a chronic gambling addiction, fell into debt to a corrupt baron, was freed by a GoodSamaritan who sought to reunite the mother and daughter, and [[TheFarmerAndTheViper took advantage of this kindness]] to [[BlackWidow marry/kill]] the baron and take his planet's vast riches for herself, abandoning her daughter with no remorse. While several characters conclude from her betrayal that she was EvilAllAlong, the fact that her daughter once thought fondly of her makes it unclear whether or not Kurenai loved her back before her {{Greed}} won out.
32	** Poseidon Shura has an enigma of a childhood where he went from an average kid to an [[TheCaligula utterly insane and despotic prince]] who mangles his subordinates and wages war on [[AndroidsArePeopleToo perfectly innocent robots]] ForTheEvulz. The one indicator behind this switch is that he was denied affection from anyone, least of all [[ParentalNeglect his own adoptive father]], but the specifics are unspoken; it's also all but confirmed that succumbing to TheDarkSide as a [[GravityMaster Gravity Ether Gearist]] had something to do with it.
33	* [[spoiler:Walter's]] FaceHeelTurn in ''Manga/{{Hellsing}}''. When he was turned is unclear. Some fans think it's when he was captured, others believe he had switched sides before the beginning of the series.
34	* It's unknown when Manami from ''Manga/Life2002'' became TheBully. She's introduced as a friendly, sweet girl who befriends Ayumu but she goes off the deep end when her boyfriend dumps her, and she starts thinking he's interested in Ayumu which causes her to become a terrible case of TeensAreMonsters. It's possible, and somewhat implied, she was [[FalseFriend pretending to be]] Ayumu's friend all along as a part of her bullying.
35	* This provides the main DrivingQuestion and is a major theme in ''Manga/{{Monster}}''-was the titular Johan Liebert driven evil, or was he always a monster?
36	[[/folder]]
37
38	[[folder:Comic Books]]
39	* ''ComicBook/AGodSomewhere'' tells the story of an ordinary, sane man of arguably above-average character who one day mysteriously gains superpowers. Though initially unchanged and uses his powers to help people, he gradually begins drifting away from a human perspective until he suddenly goes completely manic and goes on a horrific rampage across the country, killing people and destroying things for seemingly no reason than because he can. Why he does so is unexplained; we are never given a direct glimpse of what this man is thinking, so the motives behind his actions and the impetus for his shift in personality from AllLovingHero to evil madman remains as mysterious to us as to the characters in the story. He himself tries to explain it to his former best friend at the end, but [[BlueAndOrangeMorality disconnect from normal thought and speech]] means that he fails to really get anything across beyond that he's come to see himself as "separate" from other humans.
40	* Some of Creator/DCComics' villains are ambiguous on when they turned evil, or if they ever were good.
41	** ''Franchise/{{Batman}}'': ComicBook/TheJoker [[TropeNamer is the poster boy]] for the MultipleChoicePast. The only thing consistent is that he was a low-level crook who got dunked in chemicals to become the Joker. While some origins (most notably ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke'') have him being forced into crime, others have him as already a sinister criminal beforehand. ''Film/Batman1989'' and ''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries'' choose the EvilAllAlong interpretation. Batman even points it out to Harley Quinn in ''Batman: The Animated Series'':
42	--->'''Harley:''' Joker told me things, secret things he never told anyone...\
43	'''Batman:''' What did he tell you, Harley? Was it the line about the abusive father, or the one about the alcoholic mom? Of course, the runaway orphan story is particularly moving, too. He's gained a lot of sympathy with that one. What was it he told that one parole officer? Oh, yes... 'There was only one time I ever saw dad really happy. He took me to the ice show when I was seven...'\
44	'''Harley:''' ''(crying)'' Circus... He told me it was the circus.\
45	'''Batman:''' [[MultipleChoicePast He's got a million of them, Harley]].
46	** ''Franchise/GreenLantern'': Larfleeze was supposedly made greedy from his early life as a slave, [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes and clearly misses his family]]. However his memory is spotty and the possibility exists that he was a slaver instead of a slave. [[EvenEvilHasStandards He's genuinely disturbed by the idea]].
47	* In ''ComicBook/JudgeDredd'', it's never definitively shown just what caused Dredd's clone-brother, Rico, to [[LawmanGoneBad go bad]]. We see in flashback what ''might'' have been the start of Rico's decline and what Dredd himself thinks may have caused it — [[ChildhoodBrainDamage an improperly treated head injury]] during a mission in his youth — but Dredd admits after that no one can say for sure.
48	-->'''Dredd:''' So take it how you will. Either something happened to Rico to make him go wrong... or '''nothing''' happened, and the potential for evil is in us all. I like to think it's the former, but the thought that it might not be has always kept me vigilant. Let it do the same for you.
49	* ''ComicBook/TheTransformersMoreThanMeetsTheEye'': Thanks to the backstory of the GreatOffscreenWar being told in AnachronicOrder with flashbacks that often are spaced many years apart, it ends up being unclear where precisely [[KnightTemplar Zeta Prime]] transitions from the NiceGuy trying his best in a broken system he starts as to the raving madman and extremist no better than the Decepticons he becomes. There's a lot of hints to his later, darker personality in stories chronologically set before he becomes a bad guy — like being weirdly annoyed at people not calling him by proper titles, the police forces becoming more brutal under his command, and becoming prone to [[BreadAndCircuses pageantry to "calm the masses"]] — but none of them really paint him as anything worse than a flawed but well-meaning CorruptPolitician who does want to at least try and make a positive change, even as becomes demagogic, and we never see the exact moment where his transformation into an outright villain happens.
50	* ''ComicBook/TheWalkingDead'': It's not entirely clear just how much of [[AxCrazy Negan's]] eccentric madness and brutality is really the result of his TraumaCongaLine of a backstory warping him into a WellIntentionedExtremist and how much of it is just [[MaskOfSanity his real self shining through]]. When we see flashbacks of him from before [[ZombieApocalypse the outbreak]], he's ''already'' [[{{Cloudcuckoolander}} a rather strange guy]], prone to doing weird, inappropriate things like cussing out the students at the school he works at or having an affair despite genuinely loving his wife, all while chiding himself for doing those things as if he slipped up in a performance or gave in to an addiction. It takes a lot of trauma and complex events to have him start doing anything outright villainous, but it seems like he might have had some demons hiding in him long before then.
51	[[/folder]]
52
53	[[folder:Fan Works]]
54	* ''Fanfic/DarkestDestiny'' makes it unclear just when and how Cassandra ended up losing her way. Was it when she first denied who she was? When she learned the AwfulTruth about her mother? Or did she only ''truly'' turn evil the moment she seized the Moonstone for herself?
55	* ''Fanfic/FracturedFates'': The only thing known for certain about how Agent 44 [[SanitySlippage fell to despair]] and joined Dark Hand is that it happened sometime after the fall of Hope's Peak, but before the Killing School Life began. It doesn't help that they [[LaserGuidedAmnesia had their memories erased]], so even Agent 44 themself doesn't recall how, when or why they joined Dark Hand.
56	* ''Fanfic/JauneArcLordOfHunger'': Flashbacks reveal that Darth Nihilus had fallen to the Dark Side long before his transformation into a Force Wound, and was already a genocidal sadist before the mass shadow generator was activated. How he ended up falling in the first place remains unclear.
57	* ''Fanfic/OfGoldAndIron'': It's clear that [[spoiler:Jagen H'ghar]] lost ''something'' that was very important to them as a result of [[spoiler:Tywin's conspiracy on Braavos]]; something that was so vital that the typically stoic man completely loses his composure when reminded about it. But what exactly that ''was'' is left up to the reader's imagination.
58	* It's ambiguous in ''Fanfic/RWBYScars'' whether Neo became AxCrazy after she [[spoiler:was raped and beaten by an anti-Faunus racist]] or whether she always had a knack for violence. As a young child, she attacked her classmates and threw rocks at animals, but whether she was doing it out of malice or acting out due to other's FantasticRacism towards her is vague.
59
60	* ''[[https://archiveofourown.org/works/53913826/chapters/136464688 The Tale of a Cat Most Curious]]'': The [[WebAnimation/{{RWBY}} Curious Cat]] wonders internally: were Teams RWBY and JNR always the [[AccusationFic selfish, hypocritical assholes]] who fuelled General Ironwood's {{sanity slippage}} and sacrificed an entire kingdom for their own gains even as far back as their Beacon Academy days, and the post-Fall of Beacon events simply brought that out even more? Or did RWBY/JNR only transform for the worse due to the post-Beacon mounting trauma, pressure and a sore lack of discipline from all the authority figures around them?
61	[[/folder]]
62
63	[[folder:Films -- Animation]]
64	* {{Discussed\|Trope}} in ''WesternAnimation/BatmanUnderTheRedHood''. After his death at the Joker's hands, Jason Todd is brought BackFromTheDead by Ra's al Ghul's Lazarus Pits, later becoming the murderous Red Hood and an enemy of Batman. While both Ra's and Batman believe that Jason CameBackWrong, Jason himself throws it back in Batman's face, suggesting that Bruce just prefers to think that his recent actions are the result of the pit "turning him rabid" because it's easier to digest rather than entertain the thought that the ''real'' Jason is [[EvilAllAlong finally showing himself]]. The film ends without confirming either possibility.
65	[[/folder]]
66
67	[[folder:Films -- Live Action]]
68	* ''Film/TheDarkKnight'': The moment that pushes Harvey Dent into supervillainy is [[spoiler:his fiancée getting murdered]] and half his face burned off, driving him mad with despair and unleashing his vengeful alter ego Two-Face… but there's quite a few hints that Two-Face, or the seeds that would become Two-Face, might have been lurking within Harvey for a ''long'' time prior to that, such as his [[JackBauerInterrogationTechnique frightening interrogation]] of one of Joker's henchmen or his venomous, seething hatred of cops. Deleted scenes, included in the novelization, make this more pronounced with Batman investigating Harvey's past and learning that despite his charismatic and cheery personality, he actually had a ''horrifying'' [[DarkAndTroubledPast background]]; his abusive, alcoholic, and mentally disturbed father was a policeman who would regularly beat him and his mother and then bully other cops into not doing anything about it (and mostly succeeded because said cops disliked his mother for once being "[[PoliticallyIncorrectVillain one of them]]"), culminating in both his parents dying in what might have been a murder-suicide. That itself was shortly followed by Harvey going to law school to try and escape his family's reputation, only to find out that people there saw him as having no prospects beyond his handsome face, objectifying him as a PrettyBoy sleeping his way to success. While Harvey doesn't ''outwardly'' show any signs of emotional or psychological scars from all of this, it's hard not to imagine he wasn't already a little emotionally unwell beneath his "Gotham's white knight" public image, and the death of his parents particularly was never solved, raising questions of where precisely the Two-Face persona came from and how long Harvey has had that darker side.
69	* The infamous [[Characters/HalloweenMichaelMyers Michael Myers]] of the ''Franchise/{{Halloween}}'' films is regarded as so terrifying because as a child, he snapped and became a monstrous killer for no discernible reason. Given how little we see of his childhood(as well as the multiple timelines the series went down), several theories have cropped up. He may have been suffering from unchecked mental illness at six years old, which was only worsened by growing up in a sanitarium. Or he may be the result of possession by an ancient Celtic curse. Still others propose he was just an evil psychopath [[EnfantTerrible all the way from birth.]] The newer reboot trilogy strongly hints there is something supernatural driving Myers, but never really elaborates.
70	* In ''Film/{{Looper}}'', this applies to (and later creates some possible FridgeHorror out of) [[spoiler:The Rainmaker]]. The film implies that it was [[spoiler:the death of his mother at the hands of Old Joe]] that drove him over the edge and set him on the path to evil, but there are hints that it was already there [[spoiler:like when he throws tantrums and when he killed his aunt.]]
71	* ''Film/RepoTheGeneticOpera'': A montage during Rotti Largo's VillainSong "Gold" shows that the horrible things he did, like legalize organ repossession, only happened after Marni left him for Nathan. Before that, he was hailed as a savior for solving the organ failure epidemic. The film as a whole leaves it ambiguous if Rotti was a VillainWithGoodPublicity who stopped caring about the "good publicity" part after Marni, or if he's a straight example of LoveMakesYouEvil.
72	[[/folder]]
73
74	[[folder:Literature]]
75	* ''Literature/TolkiensLegendarium'' makes it clear that nothing was evil in the beginning, not even the [[BigBad Dark Lords]], so like the rest of creation [[Literature/TheSilmarillion Morgoth]] and [[Literature/TheLordOfTheRings Sauron]] were once good [[OurAngelsAreDifferent Ainur]] as faithful to [[GodIsGood Eru Ilúvatar]] as any other. But we never actually see Morgoth before he fell. Even during the Music of the Ainur, when the world was created and he was still called Melkor, he intentionally messed everything up and introduced evil to the creation. Before this, he wandered the Void alone searching for ThePowerOfCreation, and the narrative implies that too was an evil act. From the other direction, it is rather murky whether he went bad all at once or [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil retained some good in him until later]]. Was it when he [[EntitledBastard declared himself King against the opposition of the other Valar]]? When he [[ScrewThisImOuttaHere threw a hissy fit and fled Arda]] when the others called him on that? When he started seducing Ainur into his service? When he undid the other Valar's creations? When he destroyed the Two Lamps? When he corrupted living beings into [[WasOnceAMan Orcs]], which the narrative calls his vilest act, is the latest possible point, as before then there was no life other than Ainur who entered the world from outside and could not be permanently harmed by him, but the Incarnates were completely at his mercy and ruined forever. As for Sauron, he was supposedly still good for quite a while, but due to how Tolkien wrote the story, he never appears until the tale "Of Beren and Lúthien", by which point he had been totally evil for thousands of years and [[MotiveDecay his original motivation for turning evil forgotten]], so we have even less of an idea.
76	* ''Literature/FateOfTheJedi'': Luke spends a lot of the early parts of the series trying to figure out what drove his nephew Jacen Solo into [[FaceHeelTurn becoming Darth Caedus]], retracing the steps of his training and life to try and find ''some'' explanation of where precisely [[FreudianExcuse things went wrong]]. And he does find a number of potential explanations and contributing factors — such Jacen misinterpreting the Potentium teachings or Lumiya's manipulations — but none of them are fully satisfying. [[spoiler:In the finale, he gets a chance to ask the man himself for the answer when he meets Jacen's ghost. Jacen gives a potential inciting incident (learning of a prophecy about a rising Sith Lord that might relate to his daughter) but then bluntly notes that there ''wasn't'' any "one bad day" that made him evil overnight; it was a long line of mistakes, changes, and choices that led him down that path, not one thing in particular, simply because people aren't that simple.]]
77	[[/folder]]
78
79	[[folder:Live-Action TV]]
80	* In ''Series/BreakingBad'', at one point Mike gives Walter a speech about how he doesn't believe in second chances or half measures, because when he was a cop Mike tried to do a ScareEmStraight with a serial {{Domestic Abuse}}r, only for the guy to kill his wife two weeks later. Combined with Hank's statement that Mike's time as a cop "ended dramatically" most fans think the abuser case was why Mike broke bad, but it's never actually confirmed. ''Series/BetterCallSaul'' shows that Mike (along with the rest of his department) was already a DirtyCop before he moved to New Mexico after the revenge-killing of two crooked cops who killed his son Matty for [[ScrewTheMoneyIHaveRules not being entirely willing to play ball]]. However, it's unclear if that was his first murder, or if he already covertly worked as a hitman while on the force.
81	* In ''Series/DeadlyClass'', Chester Fuckface's first kill was his own father, in revenge for his father killing his beloved dog, because his dad objected to the way Chester loved the dog. It's left unclear whether Chester's dad was jealous of Chester's affection for the dog, or whether Chester, who has a thing for dogs, was having sex with the dog. The former would imply that his start of darkness occurred with the death of his dog. The latter would imply that his start of darkness might have begun earlier.
82	* ''Series/DoctorWho'': Upon his return in the Revival Series the Master's insanity and evil was retconned [[FreudianExcuse to be because of drums in his head]]. It was revealed these drums were put in his head by the Time Lords at the end of the Time War in a plan to try and escape. Since he obviously didn't show signs of the drums in the Classic Series, it's ambiguous whether this is a {{Retcon}} or an in-universe change to history and the Master didn't have a known reason for being evil originally. [[spoiler:When the same Master returns in Season 10 his drums are removed, but he's still just as evil. Though it's possible at this point the damage has already been done, drums or no drums]].
83	* ''Series/{{Gotham}}'': Jeremiah Valeska is introduced as an unassuming, moral person before his [[EvilTwin psychotic twin brother]] Jerome tracks him down to prove that Jeremiah has the propensity to be just as evil as himself, also alleging that Jeremiah framed him and his normal persona is just a mask. He later sends Jeremiah a gas which transforms him into the Joker. However, Jeremiah himself claims that the gas did not alter his personality, and whether or not Jerome was right about Jeremiah's past is deliberately ambiguous.
84	* ''Series/{{Lost}}'': What little we see of [[BigBad the Man in Black's]] backstory shows he was kind of a misanthropic asshole even ''before'' he became [[HumanoidAbomination an unholy smoke monster]], raising the question of whether it was [[spoiler:accidentally killing his mother and being horrifically punished for it by his brother]] that pushed him over the edge or he was always bad deep down.
85	* ''Series/{{Supernatural}}'': [[{{Satan}} Lucifer's]] propensity for trying to invoke SympathyForTheDevil makes when he turned evil unclear. He was corrupted by anger and jealousy by the Mark of Cain, however {{God}} has stated he was already prideful and arrogant before God gave him the Mark, and never liked humans to begin with. While it made him worse, it's up for debate if he was ever truly good. [[spoiler:The reveal of [[GodIsEvil God's true nature]] as a ManipulativeBastard who orchestrated all of the events in the series, including Lucifer's fall, for his own amusement, means that God's statement on the matter can't be taken at face value either.]]
86	[[/folder]]
87
88	[[folder:Religion and Mythology]]
89	* Literature/TheBible: King David's oldest son, Amnon, [[BrotherSisterIncest rapes his half-sister]] Tamar; David was furious about this, but loved Amnon too much to punish him. The result is that Tamar's full brother, Absalom, [[RapeAndRevenge kills Amnon]] and is a fugitive for a while. Though he and David eventually reconcile, Absalom would later [[AntagonisticOffspring declare himself king and try to overthrow his father]]. It's easy to read David's handling of the Amnon incident as causing Absalom's actions, though the narrative doesn't make this explicit.
90	[[/folder]]
91
92	[[folder:Video Games]]
93	* John Doe in ''VideoGame/BatmanTheTelltaleSeries'' is set up to become its incarnation of ComicBook/TheJoker from the beginning, but acts more like TheMentallyDisturbed than genuinely evil until Bruce pushes him over the edge at the end of Season 2 Episode 4. However, there's hints that he may have always been manipulative and Joker-like from the start and that some of his earlier personality may have been an act. It's fitting for the trope namer for MultipleChoicePast.
94	* ''VideoGame/BlueSkies2'': According to Cesar, Rhetz was already ambitious and selfish even before the destruction of their clan, making it questionable how much of an effect that event had on Rhetz. On the other hand, Rhetz does cite the destruction of his clan as a major factor for his belief that only absolute power can bring peace.
95	* In ''VideoGame/BorderlandsThePresequel'', it's left ambiguous as to when Jack became [[BigBad the villain]] everyone loved to hate in ''VideoGame/Borderlands2''. Which [[CynicismCatalyst betrayal]] pushed him over the edge and which dogs he [[KickTheDog kicked]] rather than [[ShootTheDog shot]] are up to the player (if, indeed, they don't conclude his adorkable wannabe hero persona at the start of the game wasn't a ruse in the first place). It's even ambiguous to characters InUniverse; Athena [[ScrewThisImOutOfHere finally leaves his employ]] at the end, Moxxi [[spoiler:was convinced enough that he was already on the path to villainy that she tried to kill him when he'd saved the moon]] and Lilith and Roland [[spoiler:turn against him after he murders his own scientists]].
96	* ''VideoGame/DyztopiaPostHumanRPG'':
97	** Fredek states that Clyde has an inhibitor in his brain for much of his early life, which shocked him every time he had aggressive thoughts or sexual thoughts while feeding him dopamine to keep him docile. Eventually, it stopped working, leading to Clyde becoming one of the nastiest Hunters in the business. It's unknown if he was always malevolent or if the inhibitor [[BeingTorturedMakesYouEvil made him go mad]]. However, his cutscene where [[spoiler:he brainwashes Rosie shows that the inhibitor actually still works to some extent, but he figured out that brainwashing himself and removing certain memories can prevent it from shocking him]].
98	** Gemini is the TokenEvilTeammate of the Zodiac archdemons, having no genuine affability or standards compared to the rest. However, Aquarius states that all archdemons are influenced by their sync partners, so it's unknown if Gemini was always evil or if she slowly became evil due to syncing with unsavory people.
99	* ''VideoGame/Fallout4'': After [[spoiler:the synth that [[KillAndReplace killed and impersonated]] Mayor [=McDonough=] is exposed]] and killed, Hancock finds himself deeply unsettled and wondering [[spoiler:when the switch happened, and what it says about [=McDonough=] as a person; whether he was always an asshole himself deep down and the synth just continued playing the part, or if he was actually an okay guy and the synth was the one who did all the morally objectionable things that [=McDonough=] supposedly did.]]
100	* ''Franchise/TheLegendOfZelda'':
101	** It's revealed later in ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTheMinishCap'' that the villain Vaati used to be Ezlo's harmless apprentice before stealing the Mage's Cap. Although Ezlo explains that Vaati became interested in humanity's potential for evil and tried to follow their example, he cannot say for sure whether he became that way over time or was always a DeceptiveDisciple. The manga adaptation depicts Vaati breaking down from serving as Ezlo's BeleagueredAssistant.
102	** ''VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaTearsOfTheKingdom'' has this with the game's incarnation of Ganondorf. He was a celebrated hero of the Gerudo tribe before becoming a Demon King with his stolen Secret Stone, but it's never made clear if he was always using them as a means to an end, or if he became obsessed with power over time.
103	* ''Franchise/MassEffect'':
104	** It's clear that by [[VideoGame/MassEffect3 the third game]] that [[spoiler:The Illusive Man has been [[BrainwashedAndCrazy indoctrinated]]]]. However, since he is a HiddenAgendaVillain, you aren't shown enough of his behavior to know what actions he takes were and were not influenced by the reaper indoctrination. It is very possible that he had been indoctrinated through much of the second game, and possibly even since before the first game, but it's equally possible and implied that it was between the second and third game. Not only that, but he and his organisation were deeply sinister long before they had any chance to make contact with the Reapers, meaning there's a lot of uncertainty over whether his indoctrination was responsible for heightening his evil or just redirecting it.
105	** [[BigBad Saren]] in the [[VideoGame/MassEffect first game]]. He was always a brutal KnightTemplar, but it was ambiguous whether he was always a monster or a WellIntentionedExtremist, [[spoiler:when he was indoctrinated]], and how many of his actions before the first game were influenced by [[spoiler:the indoctrination.]] The fact that he's so far down the rabbit-hole of [[spoiler:cybernetic slavery by an OmnicidalManiac MechanicalAbomination]] by the time the player first meets him makes the exact circumstances of his fall and pre-corruption personality even more mysterious.
106	* ''VideoGame/MegaManX'': Sigma, once the leader of Maverick Hunters, became a Maverick himself in the first game, and the fourth game shows that, in the past, he might've contracted Maverick Virus from Zero that messed with his mind until he eventually "became one" with the virus. The remake/rebooted timeline, ''VideoGame/MegaManMaverickHunterX'', on the other hand, makes it ambiguous when exactly he had the idea of rebelling against mankind; the scene of his rebellion, as depicted in this game, looks like he simply chooses the right opportunity to strike, implying that he previously bode his time while he was still the leader of Maverick Hunters, and "Zero being the source of the Maverick Virus" may not be true in this version.
107	* ''VideoGame/RaveHeart'': Percivus, Lady Tajuma, and the party discuss Reverend Sergio [[spoiler:after Klein kills him. They note that Sergio wasn't such a fanatic for the Lord of Divinity in the past, but they also wonder if he was simply hiding his darker side all along or if Count Vorakia Estuuban manipulated him into becoming a MadScientist]].
108	* ''VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption2'' is the story of Dutch van der Linde's ambiguous start of darkness. While there's a clear point where his behavior changes (the failed robbery where he shot a girl), no one even in universe can agree on whether that was the moment he allowed TheMole to be a ToxicFriendInfluence who manipulated him into directing his paranoia and stress over the gang's losses at the wrong targets, or the moment where he realized he couldn't keep up a MaskOfSanity full time any more. The protagonist, Arthur Morgan, has conflicting feelings on the matter (High Honor Arthur says he doesn't know what to believe, while Low Honor Arthur thinks Dutch was manipulating him), and John's opinion seemingly changes during the TimeSkip to ''VideoGame/RedDeadRedemption'' (it's unclear whether this is the NostalgiaFilter taking hold after 12 years, or a minor continuity error because Dutch's story wasn't fleshed out when the original game was made)- in the second game, he thinks Dutch was EvilAllAlong, while in the first game he thinks Dutch originally had good intentions. And to make things even ''more'' confusing, Dutch suffered a head injury during a different mission, so there's no telling what's Dutch slipping of his own accord and what's the concussion talking, as cranial trauma is known to cause behavior changes.
109	* ''VideoGame/RuinaFairyTaleOfTheForgottenRuins'':
110	** The Witch of Varamere was stated in one legend to have been betrayed by Titus I, making it seem like she was forced to become a demon lord. However, the River Girl legend states that she used a love potion to seduce Titus, making it seem like she was the one who corrupted him in the first place. It's not clear which legends in the game are true, making her morality before becoming a demon lord ambiguous.
111	** For that matter, did Titus I turn evil because of the princess's love potion or did he succumb to his ambition and power of his own volition? Due to the conflicting lore, it's not clear what changed him.
112	* While Otto Octavius clearly suffers a SanitySlippage over the course of ''VideoGame/SpiderManPS4'' and ends up as its FinalBoss, notes you can find in his study imply that he had been working on his revenge against Norman Osborn for a ''long'' time before the game began.
113	[[/folder]]
114
115	[[folder:Webcomics]]
116	* ''Webcomic/CollegeRoomiesFromHell'': it's not exactly clear when [[spoiler:April]] went full-on crazy, but she had been acting weird for months before she finally [[spoiler:killed Mike]].
117	* ''Webcomic/GirlGenius'': Lucrezia. In the backstory, she was the MadScientistsBeautifulDaughter who was redeemed by love and married TheHero Bill Heterodyne. In the present, she’s The Other, the main villain of the story. Whether her reformation was faked all along, or she turned evil again, or even if she was influenced or taken over in some way is still unknown.
118	* ''Webcomic/TheOrderOfTheStick'': The High Priest of Hel tries to [[https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1006.html claim]] that becoming undead didn't [[TranshumanTreachery turn him evil]], only gave him a chance to take revenge for being [[TheExile unfairly cast out by his own people]] and [[BeleagueredAssistant serving under]] a self-important, ungrateful leader. He fails; the sheer malicious spite of it makes Roy realize that [[spoiler:the High Priest isn't his friend Durkon, only a vampire [[PossessingADeadBody animating his corpse]]. Though he's telling something ''close'' to the truth; while his evil alignment is because he's a vampire, he was created to be what Durkon would be if he ''had'' allowed his anger about his exile to define him and turn him evil (the High Priest calls himself "[Durkon's] worst day, personified", which is why he is on Hel's side. If he'd been made from anyone else, he wouldn't want revenge on the dwarves.]]
119	[[/folder]]
120
121	[[folder:Web Original]]
122	* In ''WebVideo/MarbleHornets'', one of the main plot points in the back half of the series is that [[spoiler:Alex]] is evil and serving The Operator. However, the story is astonishingly vague on whether he was EvilAllAlong, BrainwashedAndCrazy, or has some kind of SplitPersonality, as well as how long he has been working for the Operator and even what his motive for doing that is. There's hints he might have possibly been feeding people to his master as far back as [[spoiler:the filming of the student movie]], or maybe even that he was groomed for his role since ''childhood'', but it's all so ambiguous and uncertain that the evidence for any conclusion could mean a lot of different things.
123	[[/folder]]
124
125	[[folder:Western Animation]]
126	* [[Characters/AvatarTheLastAirbenderFireLordOzai Ozai]] from ''WesternAnimation/AvatarTheLastAirbender'', in part because we know so little about his personal history. Zuko says that they used to be a happy family, but when did this stop? When he contested Iroh's position for the throne? When he (possibly) agreed to kill his son? When he banished his wife? When he blasted Zuko's face with a fire blast for speaking out of hand? Sometime before all of this?
127	** Ozai's grandfather, [[PredecessorVillain Sozin]]. We know he had become thoroughly evil by the point that he left his former best friend, [[BigGood Avatar]] Roku, to die (after pretending to save his life, at that) to stop him from interfering with Sozin's plan to TakeOverTheWorld. But it is not clear whether he had ever truly believed what he had originally said about sharing prosperity with the rest of the world, or whether that was ''always'' an excuse for imperialism. The whole backstory is told by Roku's spirit, and he was absent for decades at a time, and by the time he learned what was happening Sozin had already fallen so far as to consider any and all criticism treasonous.
128	* In ''WesternAnimation/FairlyOddParents'', the continuity is a bit wonky on when and why Vicky became evil. In "Snow Bound", she claims to have had a bad childhood, hinting at a FreudianExcuse, but in "Tiny Timmy" it's said that the part of her brain that generates niceness never "showed up to work" and she owns a portrait of her [[EarlyPersonalitySigns scowling as a baby]], both of which suggest that she was born evil. To add to the confusion, "It's a Wishful Life" implies that she wouldn't be evil if Timmy had never been born, even though it had been established that she was already evil when they first met, and "Vicky Loses Her Icky" implies that Vicky is evil because she has a parasite.
129	* ''WesternAnimation/MoralOrel'': It's not clear exactly when Clay turned into the screwed-up person that he is today. Even before his mother died, he was shown to be very ill-behaved. And while his personality in adulthood is very dysfuntional, he did appear to be somewhat well-adjusted before marrying Bloberta.
130	* ''WesternAnimation/TheOwlHouse'': How Philip Wittebane became the evil [[Characters/TheOwlHouseEmperorBelos Emperor Belos]] is only told as a folklore ghost story of Gravesfield, but many details are left vague with only Belos' memory portraits in his mindscape giving any clues to what actually happened. The general story goes that Philip and his brother Caleb were orphans who grew up to be witch hunters until they encountered a real witch named Evelyn. Evelyn and Caleb fell in love and went to the Demon Realm together, while Philip chased after them with a dagger, believing his brother to be kidnapped by the witch. It ended with Philip killing Caleb and then swearing to destroy all witches, but the exact details are left to different interpretations. Did Philip intentionally kill Caleb, believing him to be a human traitor, or did he [[AccidentalMurder accidentally kill him trying to kill Evelyn]]? Was Philip truly in the thrall of anti-witch hysteria from the beginning or could he have changed his mindset if he wasn't so afraid to join Caleb to the Demon Realm? The show never gives any direct answers to these questions as by the present day, it hardly matters anymore since [[SunkCostFallacy Belos has invested too much of himself into his evil plans to suddenly change his ways]].
131	* ''WesternAnimation/RobotChicken'': A sketch parodying ''ComicStrip/CalvinAndHobbes'' has Calvin gets given Hobbes for his birthday and while he does call Hobbes a "real tiger", he doesn't do anything too unusual for a six-year-old and mainly acts like his canon self. His parents, however, think something's "wrong" with him and they take him to a doctor who gives him pills and shock therapy, after which Hobbes tells Calvin to kill his parents, which he does, and claims Hobbes did it, so he gets taken to an asylum, all the while pretending to go to Mars. The skit ends with him sitting on the floor in the asylum repeating, "Mars is amazing" in a stereotypical "insane" voice. Some people think that Calvin was always insane and evil, which is why he said that Hobbes was real, but others think that he was just a normal kid until he got the shock therapy, because he only seemed actually insane or evil until after that (young kids often claim their imaginary adventures are real, so that alone doesn't prove he's insane).
132	* ''WesternAnimation/TangledTheSeries'': [[spoiler: [[Characters/TangledCassandra Cassandra]]]]'s FaceHeelTurn is not shown to the audience directly. We had roughly two episodes between the catalyst for their turn to evil and TheReveal. So whether it was something [[spoiler:she]] decided to do from the moment [[spoiler:the Enchanted Girl told her about her origins]] or if it was a spur-of-the-moment decision when they reached the Moonstone isn't known to us. The TraitorShot in Episode 20 implies the former, but the way [[spoiler:she]] [[SlowlySlippingIntoEvil Slowly Slips into Evil]] over the course of Season 3 implies the latter.
133	[[/folder]]

Context Main / AmbiguousStartOfDarkness