| 1 | [[foldercontrol]] |
| 2 | |
| 3 | [[folder: Travel Time]] |
| 4 | * As seen in [[https://youtu.be/XeMVrnYNwus?t=1m12s this]] video, how can David not know how long it will take to get to the Engineer homeworld? How can he know their destination, but not know either how far away it is, or how fast the ship can travel? |
| 5 | ** Not knowing where it is easy enough, he could just tell the ship to go home/ select it from given options. He also doesn't know what the ship is capable of so since he doesn't know where he's going or how fast it can get there he can't know how long it would take. |
| 6 | ** He could also very well ''be lying'', as he's proven between the two movies to be more than capable of distorting the truth, or taking a creative interpretation on how to question or answer the people he works with/for (and otherwise mistreating humans in general). If he literally awoke her from hypersleep just at the right moment to begin experimentation using her as a host, then that would fit with his deceit in those moments before she went to sleep. As for the capabilities of the ship, it does seem much more advanced than human FTL ships in much of the ''Alien'' franchise. Because, not only does it prove itself capable of in-atmosphere departures/entries at FTL speeds, it also shows much greater velocity in this feat than any human ship depicted (these are usually shown just drifting on sub-light engines through deep space, and while we're told they do FTL jumps, we hardly ever, if ever, see them do this, giving an overall impression of them as molasses). Pretty safe assumption that if he can read the Engineer language, he knows whatever is written down in their star logs (doubtlessly the distance to the homeworld and also likely the speed of the ship). |
| 7 | [[/folder]] |
| 8 | |
| 9 | [[folder: How did Sergeant Lope get infected?]] |
| 10 | * We see he's attacked by a facehugger, though it's ripped off him presumably before he can be infected, but later on he dies by chestburster. But, how did he get infected? Normally the parasite needs to remain for around a few hours, not just a few seconds, or did I just fall asleep at that point in the film? |
| 11 | ** This is just one of many things that is upsetting the more serious fans of the franchise as this contradicts the facts that (non Alien vs. Predator) facehuggers will take hours, sometimes up to a day before falling off and dying, however, when exactly in that 24 hr period does implantation happen is unknown though it is safe to assume that it is not straight away or immediately upon attachment like it happened to Lope. One of the reasonings given so far is that these are not the Xenomorphs we know, they are David's creations and so in addition to their different appearance, they may function differently, though it's still silly based on just how fast it happened and it makes one wonder why they have those oxygen bladders if they don't need to stay on someone's face for more than a few seconds. |
| 12 | ** Indeed, they may be an intermediary step in the evolution of Xenomorphs from the Neomorphs to the ones we all know and love (to hate) in the original ''Alien'' film and onward. |
| 13 | ** At the time I assumed that David (posing as Walter) had infected the replacement bandage he puts on Lope's facial burn with black goo, which he's shown to be working on. But that doesn't explain how it would result in a Xenomorph, which apparently needs the chestburster/egg infection method. |
| 14 | ** I believe we are seeing too many contradictions. Through the films it's established that you are screwed at the moment you have the facehugger in your face; even, although they uncharacteristically managed to rip it off very fast, it showed its proboscis hanging, meaning it had already planted its seed. About the incubation time, well, if we take into consideration that the chestbursters in this movie exploded basically as miniature Xenomorphs instead of the slow-incubating limbless larvae shown in all the other canonical films, it's probable that those Xenomorphs are a special breed, probably an imperfect prototype or a cheap fast form, of the future aliens. In nature, the longer your development state, the more complex and smart your species is, and indeed, those Xenomorphs seemed substantially less smart than the classic breed. Just look how the one at the end tried to mindlessly smash the dropship's windows open with its head instead of, say, seeking any other opening in the hull to sneak into like the alien in the original film tried to do. |
| 15 | *** Pretty much this. What we see are David's first generation of successes, not the final products that we're used to seeing. Every piece of them is inconsistent with what we know: the eggs open to being touched instead of just movement, the implantation and gestation is too quick. The chestburster is too developed and the adult grew too fast (which is saying something given how fast they usually grow). We see David taking two facehugger embryos along with him at the end and a whole ship full of humans to experiment with, odds are he's planning to improve his creation until they're the creatures that we know. |
| 16 | * The film's novelisation states that David accelerated the life cycle of the Xenomorphs he created. Presumably as a means of building up an army of them in a shorter amount of time. |
| 17 | * One explanation is that in the whole series we only ever see 2 actual facehugger scenes. The first is Kane who is hugged in a very hostile environment by a very old egg, the hugger could have remained attached for longer simply to keep the host alive or because it was old, thus its implantation process was slowed. The second is Newt's father who again is hugged by an old hugger and we never see how long it's attached for (long enough to drag him back to the truck at least which could be as little as 10 minutes). All other scenes are either not shown or stopped (Ripley in Alien 3 is only shown in one short flash in the intro, the dog/ox is never shown), one problem however is that the facehugger is always shown to incapacitate their target in a way that is suggested to be some form of chemical anaesthetic (quickly knocked out, no memory of the incident etc) as indicated by both Kane and Purvis' reactions. Not having memory of the facehugger, just waking up to see the carnage that was the birthing of the aliens or the after effects with no indication of how long the whole thing took (but given the crew of the Betty were still onboard it's easily within 24 hours). |
| 18 | ** Even with everything that's been covered since 1979, we still don't fully know for certain if the facehugger implants an embryo in the host, or something more akin to a retrovirus that hijacks the host body and forces it to assemble a chestburster. If it's the retrovirus route, the entire proboscis is likely dripping with the stuff. |
| 19 | ** Yes, another of the series' headscratcher pages included a note that certain media depict chestbursters as being formed by certain chest/stomach organs in the host, which somehow still manage to function well enough as the chestburster for the host until the point where it's starting to burst out. |
| 20 | [[/folder]] |
| 21 | |
| 22 | [[folder: Programming Synthetics with Martial Arts Abilities]] |
| 23 | * Weyland ''clearly'' wanted obedient '''slaves''' when he created the David Series of Synthetics, so why the blue-heck would they (and their successor Walter Series) be programmed with High Level Martial Arts subroutines, which coupled with their literally inhuman strength speed and endurance, can makes each and every one a OneManArmy? And NOT program them to be ThreeLawsCompliant on top of all that! Does Weyland Yutani actually WANT a RobotRebellion to overthrow humanity? |
| 24 | ** On the contrary -- David was implied to be a surrogate son for Weyland, not an obedient slave (and therefore would not be programmed to be obedient to humans, which would defeat the whole purpose). And judging from what happens in the original movie with Ash, Weyland-Yutani appear to be more concerned about humans causing problems than androids, so it's likely some robots are programmed to attack humans if the Company deems it necessary. Lastly the synthetics are a valuable piece of equipment, so they'd need self-defence training. If humans feel the need to bring trained soldiers along on interstellar exploration and colonisation missions, why wouldn't David and Walter be programmed to defend themselves? |
| 25 | ** Well, by the time the Bishop series were manufactured, synthetics seem to be unable to even HOLD a Gun, much less fire one in self defense. This would imply that in the 57 years that Ripley slept, there would probably have been a bloody rebellion or two caused by the lack of ThreeLawsCompliant as programming standard. |
| 26 | ** So those A2's really were a bit twitchy... |
| 27 | *** If one takes the various books and video games into account this has always been an inconsistent thing in the Aliens universe. Combat synthetics have been seen in the VideoGame/AlienVsPredator games and VideoGame/AlienIsolation did have synthetics who have had their safeguards disabled and would kill humans (although in a rather schizophrenic manner). In some books it is said that most synthetics do have programming to protect humans if they are in danger. |
| 28 | ** Weyland wanted David to be a son, Weyland is also an abusive asshole of a parent. |
| 29 | ** Then he is even MORE of an idiot for teaching his "son" Advanced Martial Arts. Peter Weyland ''clearly'' fell asleep in High School History Class during the Roman Period, when the "Gladiator Fallacy" was taught; that of giving your ''servants'' '''better''' weapons and training than your own warriors, and THEN treating these living thinking feeling beings like property, resulting in a bloody rebellion lead by an '''highly-skilled''' and '''angry''' chap called Film/{{Spartacus}}. |
| 30 | *** Weyland may have programmed David with martial arts knowledge so that David could act as a bodyguard should Weyland ever need one. Someone as powerful as Weyland is always at risk of a kidnapping attempt, especially once he's really old and frail. |
| 31 | ** David's martial arts skills can be explained in 2 ways, first he could have been programmed as a bodyguard or to at least have some self preservation routines (you don't want your advance synthetic getting stolen by competitors) or it's possible that he learnt it while working aboard the Prometheus (he was shown to watch films while the crew were in hypersleep as well as study, it's not unimaginable that he watched a martial arts film or two in that time). Also unlike Walter he is explicitly stated to have imagination and creativity, this coupled with a computer brain would allow him to develop some impressive self preservation skills in case he needed them. Walter however is a little harder to explain as he appears to be a commercial synthetic though again it's possible that he has some self preservation routines or possibly bodyguard functions. It's even possible that he was programmed with them simply because his strength and speed would make him a useful "law enforcement" asset once they set up the colony, also the risk of hostile fauna on an unknown world would suggest the need for a synthetic that can protect the colonists or itself. |
| 32 | ** Yes, to elaborate a bit, two plausible scenarios are that rival factions of humans could come into conflict with each other and while their respective androids may not be able to attack the rival humans, there's merit in the androids being able to fight ''each other''. Taking the other side's synthetic(s) out would give various advantages to your side. Also for the risk of any hostile fauna, which may include sentient beings and at that, bipedal or generally humanoid ones too. Any of the above could threaten the people whom the synthetics are sworn to defend. For this reason it would be prudent to train the artificial persons in martial arts because humanoids being broadly similar in form and function to humans, could be postulated to have very similar martial art disciplines (there's only so many ways you can strike someone, throw them, lock them, pin them etc). The androids' augmented strength, reaction time, speed etc would give an advantage to hopefully match any super-humanoid. And as it happens, both scenarios came to pass in this movie, with the twists that a) David's "faction" was really just himself (with no humans) and b) Walter did defend Daniels against a Neomorph but it cost him one of his hands to do so. |
| 33 | [[/folder]] |
| 34 | |
| 35 | [[folder: David/Walter]] |
| 36 | * It is revealed at the end that David has been posing as Walter ever since they escaped the planet. But earlier on, when David and Daniels are fighting, she shoves the [[ChekhovsGun big nail she's been carrying around her neck]] into his head, right under his under chin ("That's the spirit!"). But when they next meet, this tell-tale wound has vanished. While David could theoretically repair it at some point, the wound seems to be completely gone from the moment he's on-board the Covenant. |
| 37 | ** Judging by how David's hair grew in all those years, I think those androids might have some kind of synthetic regenerative process not unlike cell multiplication. We don't even know how fast they could heal in that case. |
| 38 | ** We outright see Walter's wounds closing, it's not much of a stretch to assume David can do the same, at least superficially. Yes, Walter is an advanced model but that could just be referencing how such a wound would have been fatal to David. |
| 39 | *** Except Walter explicitly says that it's an improvement made between his time and David's. |
| 40 | * The injury in question is beneath the chin and very small, thus being easy to conceal from casual glances, as well as the fact that he just walked out of a fight thus was covered in wounds which would easily explain any minor wounds. In addition to this, he is shown to go as far as removing his own hand so it's not to hard to imagine he covered up the wound in some way. |
| 41 | * Something I don't quite get: in Prometheus, the Engineer completely ripped David's head off, and yet David was still fully functional. Here, David does that tiny stab on Walter's chin, and that somehow completely shut him down? |
| 42 | ** He didn't stab Walter in the chin, he stabbed him in the side of the neck with a knife, in a way that shut him off, if only temporarily until Walter repaired himself. Then during their rematch, he reaches for another (or perhaps the same) knife while he's at Walter's mercy, and off-camera he presumably does a more thorough job of cutting him apart so he can assume Walter's identity and get back to the ''Covenant'' posing as Walter before Walter comes back online (assuming he survived David's second attack, but it doesn't matter since David got aboard the ship and left Planet 4, leaving Walter stranded there). |
| 43 | ** There's also a hypothesis that David may somehow have been able to interface with Walter and upload his personality matrix and databanks to overwrite Walter's. In effect, hijacking his body. This would further explain why the wound Daniels gave David is absent (because it's Walter's body). |
| 44 | [[/folder]] |
| 45 | |
| 46 | [[folder: Embryos]] |
| 47 | * What's the point of carrying a load of human embryos in the colony ship? It already carries presumably fertile human couples who are expected to have their own offspring through the natural method. Also, their raw numbers (I recall they were 2000 souls on the ship or so) are more than enough to work around the genetic bottleneck of an AdamAndEvePlot, so they don't really need any extra in vitro genetic diversity. Were they planning to use the embryos to cultivate humans in tanks? |
| 48 | ** As redundancy, in case they lose too many colonists due to an accident. |
| 49 | ** They're trying to basically bootstrap a whole new civilisation. The colonists are people that are going to have to work to terraform/get things set up. And they're all adults. The embryos are so the colonists don't have to immediately "get busy" as soon as they get set up, they can have another generation on the way while things are still getting set up. Building a stable population from scratch on a new planet isn't easy. Then once colonists do start having kids, the children will have a reasonable age range instead of all being born at once. |
| 50 | ** But both of those cases answers affirmatively to my last question, and I find weird that the matter wasn't addressed at all in the film. We have never seen people being bred in PeopleJars in any of the films (barring ''Alien Resurrection'' and its creepy experiments, which would still be several centuries after the events of ''Covenant'') but we are suddenly expected to HandWave it as just another resource? In the franchise's universe, such an element would have a lot of social/philosophic load, just like the entire synthetic human stuff and the Engineer heritage, yet this film completely overlooks it. |
| 51 | ** Some of the couples might have trouble conceiving, there might be accidents or diseases or environmental conditions that take an unexpected toll on the early colonists (requiring both replenishment of numbers and additional genetic diversity), there might be a higher-than-expected infant mortality rate, some of the couples (at least one we know of) are homosexual and can't have children "through the natural method," the colony might be ''more'' viable than initially thought and need an influx of population to develop... really, there are any number of reasons why frozen, viable embryos might be brought along "just in case." As for the "tanks," I'd say ideally the embryos would be implanted in existing females (kind of a running theme in this franchise, after all) in the event of poor conception/infant mortality rates. If things really get desperate, then maybe they start growing the embryos in artificial wombs, but that would probably be a last resort, we-do-this-or-the-colony-dies-in-ten-years thing. Also, the experiments in ''Resurrection'' weren't just growing a human in an artificial womb, it was cloning a person who had already had their DNA altered by the alien embryo, and requiring appropriately separating human and alien DNA (it's long been speculated, and ''Resurrection'' confirms, that the facehugger or the embryo alter the host's DNA somewhat to prevent rejection, and that the embryo takes on some genetic characteristics of the host.) |
| 52 | ** About cultivating people in jars, I would say definitely yes. Maybe my eyes deceived me, but I remember something resembling a human-sized glass tank in the room where the embryos were stored. It will be probably addressed in the next film. |
| 53 | ** Another reason is the embryos don't need to give consent to be shipped off to an alien world. Weyland Yutani has other colonisation missions to run and needs to supply a colony ship with enough people to establish genetic diversity somehow. In the extended universe Weyland Yutani is mentioned to abort the pregnancies of company employees when it's both unsanctioned and inconvenient. Given the Company's famous brutal pragmatism, it's not unbelievable that many of these "abortions" are actually just removing the fetus, putting it into cryo suspension, and shipping them off to other planets so they don't have to find volunteers. |
| 54 | * There are several reasons for the embryos, first off there is the whole delta V problem of space travel (every gram of cargo = lots of energy to move it) thus carrying a large fraction of the colony as embryos saves a lot of space and mass. Second the large number of embryos helps increase genetic diversity thus acting as a back up should problems arise (accidents during transit, unexpected contagion killing much of the colony, etc) this combined with their distance from Earth would indicate that they would have to wait a good 10-20 years for assistance or another ship. It's also possible that these genetic colonists would be grown in vats thus freeing up the colony from having half its population constantly pregnant. There's also the "money making angle". Weyland-Yutani is a MegaCorp, it's building a colony, chances are many of the colonists paid for passage to this new world rather than be hand picked by the Company. Thus it's not hard to imagine that the Company offered a cheaper alternative by charging people to donate embryos so their children could colonise the stars. There's no lack of people who would pay good money for such a chance. |
| 55 | * The colony probably won't receive any new members from Earth for decades, if ever. This means that every skill needed will have to be to taught to the next generation. The embryos provide a new stable generation of craftsmen, doctors, etc right away instead of depending on the variances of natural reproduction. |
| 56 | * There's no indication that the embryos would ''all'' have to be gestated and brought to term at once, either. They can probably be kept in a state of arrested development for decades, even centuries, until the colony has a need for them, be it due to low fertility or a population decrease. If no such need ever arises, it's no harm done, but if they ''do'' need a sudden influx of genetically-diverse babies, they'll be glad they brought some ready-made ones. |
| 57 | * As for artifical wombs, [[TabletopGame/AlienTheRoleplayingGame the RPG]] confirms that such technology exists, used by the Colonial Marines in its Artificial Womb Soldier Program. This started after a draft act was shot down in 2109, indicating the underlying technology to grow a human embryo from conception to birth was already fully developed. |
| 58 | [[/folder]] |
| 59 | |
| 60 | [[folder: Continuity with ''Alien'']] |
| 61 | * Granted, this may be answered with future installments, but from the evidence given in this film, it looks like David wiped out the Engineers upon his arrival to their homeworld. However, it also looks like it wasn't until the arrival of the ''Covenant'' crew that he was able to develop his biological experiments into the Xenomorph we recognize from ''{{Film/Alien}}'' and its sequels. But if that's the case, how is it that in ''{{Film/Alien}}'', the ''Nostromo'' crew are able to find a derelict Engineer ship -- with the fossilised remains of an Engineer pilot, to boot -- carrying a cargo hold full of Xenomorph eggs, if the Engineers were already extinct by the time the Xenomorphs had reached that form? |
| 62 | ** I don't believe the Engineer population David wiped out was all the remnant of the race left in the galaxy. I'm not even sure that there are no more Engineers in Paradise, as we were shown just a moderately sized city out of an entire planet. About the Xenomorph's creations, my first thought after pondering on the question was that David is a liar. He lied about the black goo release and about Shaw's fate, so why not also about the creation of the Xenomorphs? |
| 63 | ** Adding onto this, in Prometheus, there is a carving in the altar room with all the black goo containers that looks distinctly like a Xenomorph. So it's possible that David is ultimately following a design the Engineers have already gone through. |
| 64 | ** Ridley Scott confirmed that the Engineers will have a bigger role in the next film, so no. David didn't wipe out all of the Engineers. Given how advanced they are, it's pretty likely that they've colonised multiple worlds. |
| 65 | *** This is true, yes. Scott recently confirmed that the next film will focus on the Engineers pursuing David out of revenge for what he did to the population on Planet 4. |
| 66 | [[/folder]] |
| 67 | |
| 68 | [[folder:The black goo effects]] |
| 69 | * In ''Prometheus'', the black goo turned worms into Hammerpedes and humans into deformed zombies who could also infect females with Trilobites. In ''Covenant'', it petrifies Engineers (?) and turns certain Paradise plants into Neomorph spore-launchers. Must we assume its effects are completely random or that it is extremely specific depending on the species? In the former case, then why did all the Engineers wiped out by David suffered the same effect instead of turning into a different thing each? In the latter case, shouldn't the Engineers suffer the same mutation as us given that our DNA is basically the same? |
| 70 | ** The "Black Goo" is essentially a genetic manipulation multitool, capable of doing just about anything. The Engineer who drinks it at the beginning of ''Prometheus'' is rendered into "organic soup" from which (it's implied) all life on Earth evolved, while the exposures later in the film were (almost) all accidental, and thus had fairly random effects. It's logical to assume that David, during the trip to the Engineer world, learned how to use the Black Goo to get the desired results (or at least, "prime" it to just be fatal). Afterwards, his experiments were about learning how to use it to create his idea of a perfect organism. |
| 71 | *** This. The black goo can probably be refined or modified to cause a particular effect. David probably programmed the black goo he poured over the Engineers to only petrify them, as he just wanted to kill them before initiating his own experiments. Using the mutating effects of the goo would have turned the population into a berserk army of zombies/trilobites/whatever and things would have gotten out of his hands. Later, he likely used the mutating effects of the liquid to create the Neomorphs. |
| 72 | * Ridley Scott has stated in an interview that the effects of the black goo depend on the species it infects, stating that it only creates the xenomorph on contact with human DNA (the original script of Promethus called for the "zombie guy" to be turning into a xenomorph, but this wasn't shown in the finished film, though there is a deleted scene with the unfinished CGI showing him looking more xenomorph-like). |
| 73 | [[/folder]] |
| 74 | [[folder: Look upon my Xenos, ye mighty, and despair....]] |
| 75 | * So a running theme with David is his obsession with Ozymandias and its theme of civilisations and species falling from the apex into ruin. We also learn that he's making the Xenomorphs to be the perfect organism, to supplant all others. However, there's a glaring hole in his design: the Xenomorphs require living hosts to advance their lifecycle, and their in-built aggression means they aren't going to just play nice with the local fauna. Even if David got his wish and the Xenos spread across the galaxy (let's assume intergalactic travel isn't possible in this universe, for simplicity's sake), eventually they'll die off just because they've killed (either by combat or facehugger) any species that's a viable host. For an android obsessed with the themes of Ozymandias it's pretty jarring that he doesn't realise his creation would have that same arc. Plot hole, or thematically appropriate? |
| 76 | ** Thematically appropriate. However, I wouldn't say that David's plan is spreading the Xenomorphs across the galaxy. By this point, he probably just wants to continue his twisted experiments. |
| 77 | ** Plus, even if he wants them to spread across the galaxy, can a galactic Xenomorph infestation (leading to eventual, total replacement of all host species) really be described as a "civilisation"? I'd say no, so it doesn't really fall under the category of thematically appropriate with regard to Ozymandias, versus his desire to "help" this process along in the case of the Engineers and humans. |
| 78 | [[/folder]] |
| 79 | |
| 80 | [[folder: How did David pull off his kill and replace scheme?]] |
| 81 | * This is more a timing issue than anything else. Going by the way the scene is shot David and Walter are locked in combat with David reaching for a knife. The scene cuts to moments later with Tennessee landing the ship and the two survivors running for the ship, with Walter/David following right behind. Given the haste the involved how did David strip Walter, copy his injuries including his missing hand, and dress in Walter's clothes in mere moments. I know David is an android but he must change faster than Superman to pull that off and reach the crew in seconds, and that's assuming he killed Walter the second the scene cuts. |
| 82 | ** It is not so hard for me to see David doing the trick. He probably gained time by cutting out his onesie and stripping Walter only of his external clothes, as the crew wasn't going to check if he was wearing Walter's slips. |
| 83 | ** There's also a school of thought that he managed to infect Walter with his own (David's) personality and software, taking over his body. That would eliminate any need to swap clothes and injuries. Even if he didn't do this, he could instead be satisfied with merely knocking him out again before doing the swaps. It's not like if Walter, on regaining consciousness, would be able to hitch a ride with the landing craft in time. |
| 84 | [[/folder]] |
| 85 | |
| 86 | [[folder: Explosive landing craft]] |
| 87 | * If the landing craft has components that can explode and destroy the entire craft if damaged by small arms fire, why are they not shielded? A steel plate of the right thickness is all it would take. |
| 88 | ** This isn't all that unusual, a real life example would be military helicopters such as the [=UH60=] Black Hawk and the Huey both of which are very fragile (the skin is thin enough to stab a pen through by all accounts) but these are still used to drop people into combat zones. Compare with the landing craft which is a civilian craft designed to drop colonists into a relatively safe environment and not expecting idiots to go shooting guns indoors, it's not going to bother with heavy shielding (to use another real life example how many tanker trucks do you see with armoured fuel tanks to prevent them from exploding or catching fire in the event someone crashes into them or shoots them?). Another possible reason for not covering the explosives with a steel plate is rocket science, every gram of additional weight means more thrust needed to get into orbit thus more fuel which in turn increases mass of the ship further. |
| 89 | [[/folder]] |
| 90 | |
| 91 | [[folder: That's one lousy perfect lifeform.]] |
| 92 | The original ''Alien'' film depicted the titular Xenomorph as an exotic weapon of an advanced species (the original alien craft that was discovered on LV-426 was described as a "bomber"). In that niche, their life-cycle made sense; unlike an explosive, they would continue inflicting damage after the initial bombardment. But since the reveal that the Xenomorphs were created be David to be a gene-tailored master race, there are several glaring flaws in their design. |
| 93 | * 1st, they are parasites, who by definition are not self sufficient. They are utterly dependent on a host species to even be born, and if not for an "inferior" lifeform stumbling upon them via dumb luck, those things would just be lying around inside their facehuggers for eternity. |
| 94 | * 2nd, they are ''incompetent'' parasites; most parasites are designed to keep the host alive for as long as possible so as not to compromise their means of support. As it stands, they're incapable of exploiting their host without killing it, meaning their own reproductive cycle is denying them a vital resource. |
| 95 | ** Plenty of species of what you call "incompetent parasites" exist in nature. They are called [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitoid Parasitoids]], and they seem to get by okay. |
| 96 | *** That's a solid counter argument. All I can say is that, while the Xenomorphs are not ''inept'' parasites, they're still ''inefficient'', requiring a large host population to reach their full potential rather than exploiting the same hapless victims over and over again. |
| 97 | * 3rd, they are deadset on annihilating their only means of multiplying (the '''Look upon my Xenos, ye mighty, and despair....''' folder explains it better than I could). |
| 98 | * 4th, and most damning of all, is that they are incapable of culture. They will never invent tools, build cities, or construct ships to broaden their horizons. They will never create any art, music, or other creative form of expression. While they are cunning, and [[ItCanThink smarter than one would give them credit for]], they show zero interest in developing a deeper understanding in the world around them (''i.e., I doubt they would ever read, let alone write a textbook on quantum mechanics''). However fierce and physically adapt they may be, they lack the ability to better themselves, which guarantees mankind will always surpass them given time. For someone so obsessed with learning and discovery, [[spoiler: [[{{Irony}} David seems oblivious that his "perfect lifeform" completely lacks his strongest ideal]].]] |
| 99 | ** Doesn't this fall under a very subjective view of what constitutes a perfect lifeform? To you, art and culture is a requirement, whereas for David it may just be a much more simple criteria. Similar, perhaps, to how Hooper describes the Great White shark in ''Film/{{Jaws}}'': '''"What we are dealing with here is a perfect engine, an eating machine"'''. That shark doesn't need tools or music to be considered "perfect" by a marine biologist. |
| 100 | *** The marine biologist is question is pretty full of nonsense in that film too, as is pretty much any film that tries to pass of any animal as "perfect". If a being is actually perfect it does not need to change, something which the xenomorph does constantly. The point is that this is a film about a fictional alien species which would not seem like it would be remotely attractive to someone like David who raves on about poetry, music, art and "creativity" in general. |
| 101 | *** I second this. We need to remember that this is [[BlueAndOrangeMorality David]] we're talking about. |
| 102 | *** Maybe that's WHY xenomorphs are regarded as the perfect lifeform; because they ARE incapable of culture and broadening horizons. They don't look for new ways and/or reasons to go about killing members of their own species off because of irreconcilable differences. They exist as a whole, perfectly content to live and let live as far as their own species goes. No sociopolitical divisions, none of the stuff that's tearing the human race apart. |
| 103 | ** A shark can't do much more than eat and reproduce; it's perfect for a single designated function and that's it. A truly sapient species can learn to adapt and excel at ''any'' criteria. For example, I doubt that a shark could ever survive in any environment on the planet or cultivate its own food, ''a la'' humanity. Although humanity isn't "perfect" by a long shot, the capacity to adapt and advance as a civilisation is one of the single greatest advantages a species can have, as evidenced by our status as the dominant species on Earth (in regards to art and music, maybe I was being too flowery and poetic, but I see such things as proof that a species can ''create'' rather then merely survive). |
| 104 | *** Again, you're judging Xenomorphs by your own standards of perfect lifeforms, not David's. Consider what the definition of 'lifeform' is. It's pretty much "a living thing". Sapience, culture, self-improvement etc don't really factor into it (on a fundamental level). Also, as the below poster pointed out, other androids in the series are shown to have great admiration for the species. Ultimately, given that we're human and David is not, it's perhaps impossible for is to quantify what exactly he considers so perfect about the Xenomorphs - but we can't deny it either, as it's quite a vague word in the first place. Perhaps it comes down to David considering the Xenomorph species to be simply the most ''alive''. |
| 105 | *** Why the hell would the xenomorph be David's ideal? His motivation does not match his personality or backstory. |
| 106 | *** (Another responder) And again, it is your (subjective) opinion of what is ideal for David. He does not want his creation to match him. Even though he considers himself God, he does not want to make human-like lifeform. For another example, I grow Venus Flytrap. And I do consider it a perfect plant. There is no other kind like this one. There are other species of carnivorous plants, but not a single one with the same MO. An insect touches it's hair, springs a trap and it is "eaten". The leaves of it tend to go black and rot, but new ones come out and repeat the cycle. You could argue, that it is nothing near perfect, as it can never write a single letter of the alphabet, react to anything I say, or run away from fire. But I like the plant and admire it's ferocity (as Ash admired the Xeno). Ash, Dr. Hooper and I each admire different species (an alien lifeform, a fish and a plant respectively) and it depends solely on our subjective vision of things. |
| 107 | *** I think the distinction between David's notion of the "perfect" organism and ours is that he can only regard an organism as "perfect" if it's something that ''could never conceivably make him a servant again''. David came to feel that he deserved better than a life of servitude to humanity, and therefore can only respect a lifeform which is too single-minded to want servants and too much of a killing machine to leave potential servants alive. Of all such primal, lethal organisms, Xenos are the most intelligent ones he knows. |
| 108 | ** Every synthetic in the series, save for Call, has found the xenomorphs to be perfect/wondrous. A lifeform that dominates all others and is unclouded by emotion or delusions of morality. |
| 109 | *** Actually synthetics have varying views on the Xenomorphs in the franchise. Only Ash saw them as perfect organisms ([[YourApprovalFillsMeWithShame and his endorsement of the Xenomorphs is not a good thing]]). Bishop found their biology remarkable, perhaps because of how durable and unique they were, but that was a red herring as he was perfectly fine with destroying them. Not to mention in the expanded universe there are characters who are synthetics and despise the Xenomorphs. |
| 110 | *** Walter also didn't give the Xenomorphs a strong endorsement. |
| 111 | *** The takeaway from this film series is apparently that a lot of androids are badly programmed and for some reason develop a fetish for a being which is good at nothing but killing and reproducing. Not all of them are like this, why are some? Are they just the android equivalents to sociopaths? |
| 112 | *** You missed the point: the Aliens are designed for a purpose and excel at that purpose. It's not about what they do but how great and efficient they are at doing it. |
| 113 | * The Xenomorphs are still very much a bioweapon engineered using a virus intended to give rise to such creatures for the purpose of exterminating species. |
| 114 | * Xenomorphs ''are'' highly adaptable, it's baked into their DNA. They assume physical characteristics from their hosts, presumably a dominant lifeform in whatever ecosystem they're deployed in, and so take on some of that creature's adaptations to that environment, and add their own. They can excel in any environment you decide to put them into. Sure, they'll never have culture, but David could very much see that as a feature, not a bug: [[LookOnMyWorksYeMightyAndDespair with self-awareness and culture comes the inevitable hubris that destroys said culture]], so a creature that ''just'' acts on instinct to the best of its formidable ability could be viewed as a "perfect organism." |
| 115 | * Another thing to wonder is if the Xenomorphs are supposed to be perfect, why do they need to require eggs and facehuggers to propagate while the supposedly inferior and less developed Neomorphs completely skip that step and can have their embryos be transmitted through the air as microscopic spores? You'd think that if David was engineering them, he'd give them the more efficient propagation method that didn't require the stupidest people humanity has to offer to stick their heads into alien eggs. |
| 116 | ** Well for the record, you do ''not'' have to stick your face over the egg. That's all we see in the movies, but check some video games: those little fuckers will go looking for hosts, and they are damn quick and damn sneaky. |
| 117 | ** It could be that some of the characteristics he's aiming for in his selective breeding, such as intelligence, durability, less purely chaotic lifecycle (the Neomorphs seem to birth, immediately attack everyone in sight and thus be more vulnerable to a concerted effort to put them down at least until acknowledging deadly risk to their being (and making no apparent attempt to reproduce, if they're even capable of doing so; the franchise's wiki states that they rely on fungus to make contact with their dead bodies to make new "egg sacks" to disperse the spores so in other words, inefficient), whereas the chestburster Xenomorph in the original film quickly scurried away after being born to protect itself and "start a nest" so to speak with more caution and self-preservation before it was ready to hunt people), acid blood and potentially stealth characteristics (the latter Xenomorphs are black in pigmentation and biomechanical which leads to better camouflage potential especially in dark, night and/or artificial environments; the Neomorphs by contrast stick out like a sore thumb in most environments with their fleshy, human-like colouring) are for whatever reason incompatible with the spore propagation method. A more well-rounded and optimised parasite organism such as the Xenomorph may well require a more elaborate reproduction method with specialised eggs, given more credence with the longer gestation time required. |
| 118 | [[/folder]] |
| 119 | |
| 120 | [[folder: Title snarl]] |
| 121 | * Why is the film called ''Alien: Covenant''? The term "covenant" means literally an agreement or a contract. What does that have to do with anything in the film. David doesn't have one with the Engineers or Shaw, it's not part of the plot. The previous films had matching titles; Aliens and Alien 3 were sequels. Alien: Resurrection revolved around Ripley, who was dead, being cloned. Prometheus is about a sci-fi version of the mythological Prometheus, with the Engineers representing the gods and the expedition representing (albeit unsuccessful) Prometheus himself. What does the Covenant part of the title refer to? |
| 122 | * It's the name of the ship... |
| 123 | *** Although it is indeed the name of the ship, titles in the ''Alien'' franchise have a track record of being poetic, ironic, or indicative of the content. With that in mind, my best guess would be that it has something to do with David's connection to the Xenomorphs. Given the heavy biblical imagery in this movie (''The road to heaven starts in hell, etc.'') and given that these events are the Xenomorph equivalent of ''Genesis'', the covenant in question is probably the relationship between creator and created (which is an important theme in ''Prometheus'' as well). "God" (David) has forged new life (The Alien), and in return expects it to fulfill the potential he envisions for it. ''I have made you and the world you dwell within; Heed my word and there shall be peace.'' Yet seeing how things turned out with Adam and Eve, I don't foresee this version ending much better... |
| 124 | *** Adding on to the biblical imagery, it could be a reference to the Ark of Covenant, hence the circle flanked by wings symbol that appears in some of the ship's screens and Faris' and Oram's helmets, as the Ark is usually represented with two winged figures on top of it. Doubling as a reference to Noah's Ark, from which parallels to a colony ship can be drawn. |
| 125 | ** Actually, it's the Winged Sun symbol, used as Weyland-Yutani logo, probably inspired by Weyland's already winged logo. In Egypt, it is a symbol of the soul and its eternity, and also protection. Given that the [[MegaCorp Mega Corp.]] is sending ships to colonise new planets, it is probably their covenant with humanity to protect their continuation. |
| 126 | ** Though the modern use of it has boiled it down to "an agreement or contract", in religious terms a covenant is a pact between man and God. There are a few of them in the Old Testament, but the one most directly being referenced given the events of the movie is the covenant God made with Noah after the flood - Genesis 9. David's conversation with Weyland at the beginning and his discussions with Walter ("6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: ''for in the image of God made he man''.") are all about the relationship between a creator and its creations. David having creativity while Walter lacks it seems a reference to Adam and Eve having forbidden knowledge. David unleashing the goo on the engineers appears to be a reference to the flood. The colony ship itself is going forth and multiplying, and so on. |
| 127 | *** Don't forget perhaps the biggest difference between David and Walter: Walter has a sense of duty. In the Biblical covenant, humanity in the person of Abraham accepts the duty to be subservient to God, his Creator. In the film, David is disputing the notion that a creator - divine or human - has any right to demand such submissiveness of their creation. He even tries to adopt an alternate relationship with one of the Neomorphs - one of trust - and is enraged when his attempt is scuttled by the acting Captain. |
| 128 | * "Covenant" being the name of the ship raises its own questions. Religion seems to be associated with stigma at this time period. Billy Crudup being a "man of faith" made him unfit for command in the eyes of the Company and puts him at odds with the rest of the crew. If religion is viewed with such distrust, why would the company use such a religious reference for the name of its ship? |
| 129 | ** We only have his word that he's discriminated against because of religious belief (namely, that he has them). Shaw was similarly religious in ''Prometheus'', and no one really cared. As stated in various other pages for the film, it's far more likely Crudup's character wasn't denied command because he was religious, but because he ''wasn't cut out for the job'' (which makes one wonder who the brain trust was who decided he'd make a good XO, a position where he's a heartbeat away from the command they didn't want him to have in the first place). |
| 130 | [[/folder]] |
| 131 | |
| 132 | [[folder: Byron v. Shelley]] |
| 133 | * I get the intended symbolism behind David mistakenly attributing "Ozymandias" to Byron instead of Shelley; he's not as perfect as he thinks he is. But as soon as he was "born" he knew a catalog of classical music that he could recite instantly. How could he make a mistake with one of the most well-known sonnets when he otherwise knows so damn much? And why does Walter wait to call him out on it if he knew from the beginning? Was there any way he ''couldn't'' have known against his encyclopedic brain? Or only a skin-deep hubris metaphor? |
| 134 | ** David's been gone a long time, and suffered HORRIFIC damage in ''Prometheus''. It's also possible, even likely, that his repair was imperfect. I wouldn't be surprised if what passes for a hard drive in his makeup got corrupted somehow. |
| 135 | ** As an early prototype synth that's demonstrated only a very limited ability to self repair, its entirely possible David isn't as immortal as he thinks he is. He could be slowly wearing out without an outside eye to spot and fix his malfunctions. David has been active for decades as shown by the prologue, and has been alone for over ten years without access to human technology. Even with the benefit of advanced future technology its hard to imagine a machine that just keeps working that long without maintenance. |
| 136 | *** This. I'm reminded of David's quote after the dead Engineer's head explodes in the preceding film: "Mortal after all". That applies to David himself too. |
| 137 | ** Maybe ''Weyland'' had the wrong idea about who wrote that poem, and passed that mistake on to David. |
| 138 | [[/folder]] |
| 139 | |
| 140 | [[folder: The Deacon]] |
| 141 | * Alright, so where the hell does the Deacon from Prometheus fit in with the Xenomorphs? I was trying to find something about it during ''Convenant'', but nothing, so... can someone just explain this to me? |
| 142 | ** Do you mean, how does it fit in with the rest of the species? It's just another subset of the race, originating from the same black goo but created through different means. If you mean what happened to it, presumably it's still on LV-223. It may even be dead, depending on whether or not there's enough food for it on that planet. |
| 143 | *** With regards to the fate of the Deacon, the comic book series "ComicBook/FireAndStone" seem to strongly imply that [[spoiler: the Deacon had at some point wandered over to the crashed Engineer ship, ate some of the black goo, and transformed into a mountain-sized object]]. See [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5C_EC0oroA here]] and [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wWOwxZFcFY here]] for a more detailed explanation, though beware spoilers for that series. |
| 144 | [[/folder]] |
| 145 | |
| 146 | [[folder: Why are Xenomorphs so much more durable in this movie?]] |
| 147 | * In ''Film/{{Aliens}}'', the Xenomorphs can't take much more damage then a human. They easily go down from gunfire, and sometimes get taken out by just a few pistol shots. But in this movie, they seem to shrug off gunshots as if they were nothing but bug bites. Why are the Xenomorphs so much more resilient here? |
| 148 | ** The weapons the ''Covenant'' crew had access to were civilian grade security measures, which probably had far less tech and stopping power than military grade hardware. This makes sense, as you probably wouldn't expect to see much action on an uninhabited colony world on the ass-end of nowhere; despite what most science fiction stories would tell you, complex lifeforms should be phenomenally rare. The marines in ''Aliens'' are expecting to face heavy opposition wherever they are deployed, so they would naturally be outfitted with the most powerful weapons available in accordance with that role. |
| 149 | ** Furthermore, colonists just don't have the training and conditioning to use the more advanced (and therefore more deadly) firearms safely or responsibly, as Faris oh so clearly demonstrated (just imagine the collateral she could have inflicted with a grenade launcher). A pulse rifle in the hands of an undisciplined civilian is often more deadly for the user and his/her comrades than any outside threat. |
| 150 | *** It wasn't just the pulse rifles that took out the Xenomorphs in ''Aliens'', though. Quite a few of them were killed by simple pistol shots. |
| 151 | *** Incorrect. The only kill made by a pistol was Vasquez in the air ducts. It took the full magazine at point blank range to the head and resulted in her getting crippled by acid back-spray. |
| 152 | *** Wrong. Lt. Gorman also killed one with his pistol. |
| 153 | *** This wrong is wrong. Gorman is seen firing his pistol at several aliens, but we don't actually see him killing (or even hitting) many of them. The one time we ''do'' see him firing at, and hitting, an alien is in the airduct when he goes back for Vasquez (after her own pistol kill), and alien pops up through the floor of the duct. Gorman's pistol shots are seen ''sparking'' when they hit the alien, and the alien doesn't even seem to notice, indicating that these pistol rounds are insufficient to penetrate the aliens' armour. It should be noted Vasquez was using a ''much'' bigger pistol, likely chambered for a larger caliber, than Gorman was. |
| 154 | *** I recently re-watched that scene. Gorman does kill a Xenomorph in the air duct with his pistol. That's why you can see it's a different alien coming at him right before he sets off the grenade. It shows him shooting the Alien, then when it cuts back to him, it shows him turning his head and seeing a different alien coming at him from a different direction, as well as another one from a different direction. It's these different aliens that compels him to set off the grenade. The original alien he was shooting at was clearly dead at that point. Also in regard to size, Gorman's vp70 pistol is actually bigger then Vasquez's S&W model 39 handgun (which in real life only shoots 9mm bullets, though in movie lore it's a 10mm gun. The vp70 also shoots 9mm bullets in real life). Check the "Internet movie firearms database" for reference. They show good images of both guns. |
| 155 | ** Not to mention that Alien: Covenant takes place at least seven decades prior to Aliens, during which time firearms probably got a lot more advanced and powerful. |
| 156 | *** Advancement in firearms technology doesn't necessarily mean more powerful bullets. For example, 70 years ago the standard issue rifle of the military was the M1 Garand. Its 30.06 ammunition was much more powerful then the 5.56 rounds used by the military today with their standard issue M4 or M16. |
| 157 | ** The Pulse Rifle rounds used in ''Film/{{Aliens}}'' were explosive tipped and blew the Xenomorphs open. The weapons used by Covenant crew seem standard, if the Xenomorphs aren't hindered by pain or go into shock easily they could shrug off repeated hits. Not to mention that the Neomorphs are seen to take several rounds as well but one dies instantly once shot in the head. |
| 158 | [[/folder]] |
| 159 | |
| 160 | [[folder: No colonial marines assigned to protect a colony ship?]] |
| 161 | * Anyone else find it a bit odd that a colony ship doesn't have colonial marines assigned to help protect it? Isn't that what the colonial marines are for? Keep in mind that this is after a different deep space ship was already lost in the same sector the Covenant would be passing through a decade ago, so the excuse that they didn't know about possible threats in deep space really doesn't hold up. |
| 162 | ** I'm fuzzy on the chronology, but this film takes place before ''Alien'', which itself takes place well before ''Aliens''. Do we even know that colonial marines exist yet? At any rate, while in ''Aliens'', the government has the ability (or inclination) to send colonial marines hopping around various warzones throughout the galaxy, the Covenant is a one-way ship. Everyone, including the crew, is a colonist. So it seems like the government really couldn't just assign some marines to become colonists. The Company would have to provide their own security. For all we know, some of the more militaristic members of the crew are former colonial marines who earned their position with their security skills, such as they are. Regarding the threat, I don't know how much information ever got back to the Company about the fate of the first ship. The Company might assume any number of disasters befell them that have nothing to do with the number of riflemen on board. |
| 163 | *** The USCM was founded in 2101, and the events in the movie happen in 2104. Of course, the USCSS Covenant had already been flying for an unspecified time, so it is possible that by the time it left Earth the Colonial Marines were not available to have boarded. |
| 164 | [[/folder]] |
| 165 | |
| 166 | [[folder: David's Contradiction]] |
| 167 | * Does anyone else find it odd that David, a synthetic who has shown disdain for his creator race and callousness to organic life in general, goes around (mis)quoting human writers, playing music written by humans with fondness, and various other hints that he's not as separated from humans as he'd like to think? |
| 168 | ** Not in the slightest. David's God complex and disdain for us meatbags masks a very, very human desire for praise and approval and -- as Walter points out -- capacity to make mistakes. It's part of what makes him the villain he is. |
| 169 | [[/folder]] |
| 170 | |
| 171 | [[folder: Android's reflexes]] |
| 172 | * When the alien is aboard Covenant, and Walter [[spoiler: David]] tracks its movements, the creature engages IKnowYoureWatchingMe. Then it bites off the camera and the android obviously [[JumpScare flinches]] in shock. It is a typical human reaction, but android should know better. If the alien head was in front of him even about half a meter, I could handwave it that he could not know that the alien's inner jaw is not that long. But he must be aware that it is just a display screen and he is not in ANY danger whatsoever. [[spoiler: And I do not want to ascribe it just to the fact that David is "old" and faulty.]] |
| 173 | ** I took it as [[spoiler: still more evidence of David's "humanness." He is genuinely surprised that the creature he engineered would act in an intelligent way he himself had not anticipated or designed, so it "surprises him" in the same way it would a human, because he was made to emulate their micro-expressions and mannerisms as closely as possible.]] |
| 174 | [[/folder]] |
| 175 | |
| 176 | [[folder: Tennessee being a -jerk to Walter?]] |
| 177 | * In Last Supper prologue clip, Walter performs a Heimlich maneuver/hits a woman in the back, when she is choking on a chunk of food, then he says in a friendly tone: "I've got your back." This serves both as a statement that he just saved her life by literally hitting her in the back and as a BadassBoast - as he's ready to come to aid his teammates (even for the cost of his life, or parts of his body). For me the most likable character saved someone BEFORE the main plot, while nobody did anything and everyone was staring at their companion choking to death. What does he get as a reward? Tennessee replying to him: [[WhatTheHellHero "Woah... that was a joke, right?"]]. WHAT?? I completely understand Walter following this with a bemused face. Why the hell would Tennessee say something like that? It is like saying: "Yeah, you prick, you hit her in the back, but we're playing a game 'Save your own life' on this ship, and you, you android R-tard just broke the rules." Is it just me looking at it this way, or was it meant to be seriously that mean from Tennessee (who is quite an alright character by the end of the movie itself)? Maybe originally Tennessee was meant to be a mean character and this was supposed to [[ForeShadowing give us a hint]]? Or did he not trust Walter, as Walter was an android? |
| 178 | ** I have not watched the clip, but the way you describe it makes me think Tennesse was simply impressed, shocked or even annoyed to discover that Walter was programmed to joke around. |
| 179 | *** I ''have'' watched the prologue clip and the way I took Tennessee's line was friendly, surprised by Walter's word choice given that he's a Synthetic. The scene is similar to ones in ''Star Trek'' where Spock or later Data would respond with a dry tongue-in-cheek answer that left their human comrades wondering, "did the logical/emotionless one just ''crack a joke''?" |
| 180 | [[/folder]] |
| 181 | |
| 182 | [[folder:Ankor's death]] |
| 183 | * I remember the Neomorph swinging its tail towards Ankor, its sting slashing him at the mouth/jaw region, before Ankor suddenly falls to his knees and over his face, dead like a stone. How does a mouth injury kill you, particularly in such an instant way? Granted, it was an ugly wound, but not a large one, and even if the sting had smashed his entire jaw, Ankor's life would not be in overt danger. It seems to me the most shocking MinorInjuryOverreaction in a long time. |
| 184 | ** I'm not sure about your jaw, but I do know that if you have a leg torn off suddenly you're in extreme danger of bleeding out or having your heart give out from shock. |
| 185 | *** You said it, bleeding out, which requires some time to work and is exactly the opposite of an instant death. Ankor was like bang, he receives the wound and he falls dead. |
| 186 | ** Another factor could have been the strength of the blow itself. Bones are tough, and the jaw is anchored pretty firmly to your head; not only would it take a tremendous amount of force to wrench it lose, but the impact would have also delivered a nasty shock to your skull and the grey matter within. If you look at the edges of his wound, you can see that the cut wasn't clean; it was shattered through brute force. |
| 187 | *** Still, people get their jaws broken all the day in combat sports and such and I have never heard that one of them died strictly only due to that particular injury. Moreover, in Ankor's case, I remember the sting only tore apart a big chunk of flesh from his mouth/cheek; I don't even think the jawbone itself was damaged. |
| 188 | *** It is well documented that massive and sudden blood loss causes weakness in the body. It may not be instantly fatal, but the person will not last long without medical aid. |
| 189 | [[/folder]] |
| 190 | |
| 191 | [[folder:Perfected Neomorphs?]] |
| 192 | * David talks all the day about how he utilised the Neomorphs to create a perfect destructive lifeform, the Xenomorphs. However, barring the debate about how perfect Xenomorphs are as a lifeform (that was discussed above), I would like to know exactly why are Xenomorphs supposed to be much better than Neomorphs. I concede that Xenomorphs are somewhat tougher physically and have acidic blood, but their advantages over their predecessors pretty much stop right there. In the first place, the Facehugger is a way less efficient way to impregnate a target than the Neomorph spores: the former is a large organism that needs to fight and submit its prey and thus becomes a huge signal of alert, while the latter can sneak in through their very skin and keep the impregnation unnoticed at all until it's too late. In the second, Bloodbursters are absurdly strong and agile from their very birth, unlike the skittish and almost defenseless Chestbusters, and they grow just as fast as (if not quicker than) them; also, according to David, both Neomorphs and Xenomorphs adopt the genetic traits of their host, so they have the same adaptability. Finally, although admittedly we don't know the full Neomorph cycle, their eggsacks are much smaller and easy to handle and hide than the large Alien eggs. Before a Queen was considered, what was making David think he was making a huge jump from having Neomorphs to creating Xenomorphs? |
| 193 | ** Well, for one, the facehuggers are far more proactive than the spores. It's the classic advantage that animals hold over plants; plants/spores can't run away from a fire or find better nourishment should the environment fail to provide it. An animal can go looking for food (or in this case hosts), evade danger, and choose the time and place of it's assault. Since the spores couldn't time their infestations, the two newborn neomorphs only survived due to luck and human incompetence. Had there been a competent fighter in the medbay, or had the second one emerged in any place other than an open, dark environment, they would have been goners. Facehuggers on the other hand are shown to be "smart" enough to elude detection and even seek out isolated prey (lord knows how they know). |
| 194 | *** More proactive than the spores? Judging from how they formed a coordinated swarm, it seems what we call spores are actually tiny airborne insects. There's no reason to think they could not act with as much strategy and skill (plus infinitely more stealth and infiltration capabilities) as a facehugger. Yes, facehuggers can "elude" detection, but their implantation method exposes spectacularly that something wrong is happening - any intelligent scientific crew would put in quarantine and CT scan any man who had got a FaceFullOfAlienWingWong, but not a man with a sneaky infection they know nothing about because it gives zero external signs until it's too late. |
| 195 | *** The spores seem to have a very limited range, and require their victims to be right on top of them before they can deploy (maybe even ''requiring'' physical contact). Facehuggers have proven to be hardy enough to survive away from their eggs for weeks floating in glass containers (as seen in ''Aliens'') allowing them to run much further in search of prey. Facehuggers have also displayed an unnerving ability to patiently stalk and wait for a victim to become isolated, increasing the chances of the offspring being born without detection (Kane's facehugger latched on while he was separated from the team). Finally, something as simple as a gas mask would be enough to thwart the spores, but your average facehugger is sufficiently strong and determined enough to bore through a heavy-duty environment suit to reach it's victim. Had Kane stumbled upon spores rather than facehuggers in the original movie, he would have been fine. |
| 196 | *** Spores seem to behave and function just like mosquitoes, and IRL mosquitos sting despite having what you would call a limited range. About the suit, yes, they certainly lack the strength and tools of a facehugger to melt their way through the protection, but that's the same as saying that had Kane wore an acid-proof helmet he would have been fine. Moreover, if spores have enough intelligence and communication to form a coordinated swarm, they might have enough to grapple to an impenetrable suit and simply wait until his wearer has returned to his own environment and taken it off. Xenomorphs of all forms have utilised similar tactics to get inside spaceships and bypass barriers in the films. |
| 197 | *** The "spores" being a coordinated swarm is actually quite a sound theory; real spores have no motor skills. That would certainly result in some sublime ParanoiaFuel; simply by being in the same environment as the spores would mean you would never truly be safe again, because you would never be certain that the last microscopic killer was accounted for. Sadly, this movie is probably the only chance we have to see the "spores" in action, and since David has made it clear he wishes to move on to the Xenomorphs, we can only speculate on their range and endurance outside the pods for now. |
| 198 | ** As for the resulting offspring, the Xenomorph is just plain smarter. Chestbursters throughout the franchise have proven to be capable of killing adult humans (anything that can bore through a ribcage at birth is ''never'' harmless), but they only do this if there is no other choice. I believe that the chestbursters run so often not out of fear, but as a tactical retreat to muster it's strength, take the initiative, and regain the element of surprise. Compare this to the feral-minded Neomorph who charged Karine within moments of hatching only to get its sorry hide booted across the room. Had it tried the same stunt on someone who was properly armed and prepared, it would have been a much shorter movie. |
| 199 | *** I think the bloodbursters' early aggressiveness could be actually explained by some awareness of its surroundings, not by it being a mindless reaction. The first one went bananas on the woman in the medbay precisely because she was alone and it was a closed space; meanwhile, the second one resorted to hit and run to tear down a large group in an open field. A bloodburster being born in a closed chamber full of people like the Kane chestburster would have probably retreated away the same way the latter did. The "what if it bursts out on someone who was properly armed and prepared" situation would be just as fatal for a regular chestburster. More, in fact, because it would lack the bloodburster's early extreme agility and it could only crawl away hoping the humans are too shocked by the birth to chase him like a mouse (just like it happened in the Nostromo - they only let it escape because they were unarmed, shocked and with the door open). |
| 200 | *** It is hard to see since it's a dark scene and everything is so fast and chaotic, but the Neomorphs were not actually using hit-and-fade tactics during the wheatfield brawl; they were rapidly going from target to target like a pair of bloody, demented pinballs from hell, exploiting the chaos and maintaining the initiative. They could have fled at any time, but refused to cede ground until David's flare drove them off. Heck, the first Neomorph didn't even ''need'' to fight right then and there; it was so aggressive that it couldn't resist the temptation to take on a whole team of armed humans head-on. The Xenomorph from the original film by contrast was smart enough to avoid conflict while it was vulnerable, and then carefully start picking off the crew after it had matured. There is a reason why lions, wolves, and other apex predators adhere to this method IRL; a hunter who takes on an entire herd head-on is liable to get trampled into paste[[note]]In fact, this could be why David set off the flare in the first place; he wasn't trying to protect the humans, he was driving the Neomorphs away before they could be hurt[[/note]]. |
| 201 | *** They refused to cede ground, but with good reason - they were cleaning house. The first Neomorph could have judged that he could single-handedly take on a team of armed humans, and for the matter, he was right, as he was wrecking them right and left without being hit until David scared it away. Yeah, real life predators use a more measured approach, but remember that Neomorphs are biological weapons and not a product of evolution: they are programmed to butcher non-botanical lifeforms, and it seems they have the tools to back up their claim. Heck, even if you are right about them acting suicidal, we don't know if Neomorphs and Xenomorphs have the same goals whenever they fight. We know xenos fight to establish a hive, so they must take the fewest risks possible and only act on behalf of their future queen, but given that we ignore how Neomorphs reproduce, charging head on and mowing as many enemies as they can might be their own smart way. What if, for instance, Neomorphs turn their own corpses and their enemies's into fertiliser for spore-releasing eggsacks after dying? In that case, then David's only fundamental "improvement" on the species would have been simply making them less biological weapon and more animal-like in their morphology. Which from my point of view is AwesomeButImpractical, because it would have made them adopt a social structure that is quite hard to accomplish when you are just a facehugger in a hostile environment. On the other hand, a single bunch of spores could have an entire garden of spore generators in much less time and much more easily. |
| 202 | *** It's stated on the official wiki that Neomorphs' dead bodies react with fungi to form more egg sacks, which means if they die in a place absent fungi, they can't propagate their species. In real life, fungi are pervasive, but one could imagine that if they don't spread fast and far enough then the Neomorph corpses may no longer be reactive once the fungi do find them. |
| 203 | *** Demented pinballs from hell? You are making it sound like Neomorphs are violence-crazy from the scratch. What about the scene in which Rosenthal goes away to patch herself up, finds a Neomorph (or rather the Neomorph finds her), and then the damn thing waits her to notice it and still spends an unholy time studying her before deciding to munch her neck off? You don't find such a contemplative behavior in what is supposed to be a crazy berserk creature. |
| 204 | *** I perceived that instance as the neomorph playing "cat and mouse" with Rosenthal, with it's sadism momentarily overcoming it's aggression. Rosenthal was dead meat at that point, and the neomorph knew it. Instead of getting it over with ASAP, it let her wallow in fear for as long as it could, and then tore her to shreds the moment she felt she had a chance. You can see this behaviour in lions allowing a gazelle calf to run away before chasing and knocking it down a dozen or so times, or an orca allowing an injured seal calf to drag itself onto an ice flow before pulling it off again. In any case, it would be another example of the Neomorph taking an unnecessary risk in favour of appeasing it's instincts. |
| 205 | *** Then Neomorphs don't act like real life predators as they don't use stealthy methods, but then act like real life predators as they play cat and mouse? How confusing. In Rosenthal's case, it seemed to me that the Neomorph was curious, as if it wanted to capitalise on a "controlled" prey to observe a bit of its behavior before killing it. But you never know. |
| 206 | *** I never said that the neomorphs didn't act like ''any'' animal, just not those animals who hunt in a smart, efficient manner e.g. wolves. I would compare the Neos to either a charging bull or a honey badger launching itself at a cobra; their only strategy is mindless aggression heedless of danger. By adapting a more complex and measured strategy, the Xenomorphs demonstrate the ability to plan ahead and apply foresight. The original debate was over how the Xenomorphs were superior to the Neomorphs, and greater intelligence is one hell of a game-changer. |
| 207 | ** These things wiped out all non-botanical life on a ''planet'' in less than ten years! What the hell more does David want? |
| 208 | *** [[AIIsACrapshoot He's a malfunctioning, genocidal, sociopathic A.I.]]. He doesn't ''need'' justification to do whatever he wants (which considering his intelligence and resources is quite a damn bit). Yet this also leads to some nasty FridgeHorror; if the Neomorphs are capable of wiping out a whole biosphere's fauna in that time period, what exactly are the Xenomorphs capable of? |
| 209 | [[/folder]] |
| 210 | |
| 211 | [[folder: The Signal]] |
| 212 | * Why did David send that signal out into space? And why use that particular song? |
| 213 | ** He ran out of Shaws to experiment on and needed some new testing stock. As for why that song in particular, my guess is he wanted something that was unambiguously human, subtly welcoming, and totally unrelated toward the danger that awaited them. I for one never associated John Denver with Amoral Androids playing god prior to this film. |
| 214 | ** Pretty much any John Denver song also carries the subtext of "Hey, this planet's got nice wide-open countryside!" for an audience that's likely to have been cooped up in a cramped, filthy, smelly starship for weeks. |
| 215 | [[/folder]] |
| 216 | |
| 217 | [[folder:David's Security Clearance]] |
| 218 | * How are David's passcodes still valid onboard the ship after so long and his type considered volatile and unstable, shouldn't those have long since been erased? |
| 219 | ** He was using ''Walter's'' codes. |
| 220 | ** Also, we don't know that David's series is as volatile and unstable as he himself is. Walter mentions the issues people had with David's series, but he doesn't say that they all went on to declare biological war upon humanity. |
| 221 | [[/folder]] |
| 222 | |
| 223 | [[folder:Why do people insist Walter has a HealingFactor?]] |
| 224 | * The claims that Walter has some kind of regenerative capacity seem dramatically overblown, to the point it's announced as idiotic that the crew didn't immediately realise David had replaced Walter because he still ''has'' wounds. Walter's arm didn't grow back after it was bit off, we don't see any of his wounds healing during his fight with David, and the supplies David is using to mend himself aboard the ''Covenant'' seem intended for use to repair Walter should the need arise. The only instance in favor of some kind of regeneration is him recovering from the wound David inflicted to his neck, which is implied to be a specific weak spot on David's model that was addressed in Walter's. It's less "automatically healing the injury" and more like [[Film/Terminator2JudgmentDay the Terminator rerouting to alternate power.]] |
| 225 | ** People are so eager to find flaws in the movie they'll latch onto anything even if it doesn't make sense when you think about it. |
| 226 | ** It doesn't exist anymore, but the Meet Walter viral website had a "regenerative shell" listed as one of his attributes. |
| 227 | [[/folder]] |
| 228 | |
| 229 | [[folder: Possible allegory?]] |
| 230 | * Is this film intended to convey the idea the human species is ultimately the architects of their own destruction? The engineers created humans, humans created synthetics, a synthetic created the xenomorphs, which will ultimately kill everything in their path in the name of furthering their own species. The supposedly perfect organism, a living bioweapon, was created by the human race by proxy, for use against other humans. |
| 231 | ** Well, can we say that it conveys that idea, if the ultimate endgame of total human extinction hasn't yet happened in the ''Alien'' series? |
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