History Headscratchers / Aquaman2018

** Saving the sub and letting his son die was presumably NOT an acceptable option, so doing any more damage to the sub if it got his son to leave safely would have been just fine (it was already thoroughly banged up anyway, and it didn't, in the event, have a very demanding job to do in the FalseFalgOperation). If his son did not leave, he'd die too, so risking his son dying in the explosion instead of the incoming water isn't too much of a risk. But the grenade made his father dying (and no longer being someone to hang around trying to save) certain, imminent, and easily timed, as well as a very familiar thing to fear and flee. He's effectively committing suicide, his son cannot stop that, and getting to a safe distance means taking the first steps to getting out and living.

** To elaborate some: Arthur's only got two chances to simply pick up a phone and call anyone (after landfall in the Sahara and once they hit Sicily). Given Arthur's comments downplaying his involvement in superheroics in this movie, he may not even know a way to get in touch with anyone.
*** One further step, of course: Steppenwolf's defeat or no, Atlantis and Themyscira still aren't on speaking terms. Diana's presence in particular would jeopardize Arthur's efforts.

*** Didn't Arthur say that they went to war with the Amazons when in route to the battle with Steppenwolf in the Justice League movie?

* Given this is a world where an alien is a major superhero and an Amazon warrior has been around for a century, would the public be so dubious as to Atlantis being a myth? As pointed out, a guy who can breathe underwater and talk to fish should be a key piece of evidence it exists.

** Also, that there is a metahuman that can breathe underwater and talk to fish doesn't necessarily translate into evidence in favor of the Atlantean Myth, as those usually don't involve such elements.

*** Diana is seen working alongside the police to arrest some art thieves at the end of ''Justice League'', in broad daylight and with kids coming at her, so people definitely know of Wonder Woman's existence when ''Aquaman'' starts.

*** Originally, Atlantis only appeared as part of an allegory in Plato's ''The Republic'' as an enemy of Athens, and while it's been theorized that he might have been inspired by older civilizations, Atlantis specifically has always been fictional, the myths around it just sort of ballooned in the following millenia. DC's pseudoscientists could apparently not offer any further proof than those in the real world could, and one guy who can breathe underwater and talk to fish could just be a random mutation in a universe with superpowers.
*** Saying that Aquaman proves Atlantis exists is like spotting one of the Trench and saying that this proves [[Franchise/CthulhuMythos R'lyeh and Cthulhu exist]]. Sure, the Trench are a lot like the Deep Ones, but that doesn't mean they ''are'', anymore than the existence of someone who could, if he wanted, live entirely underwater means he's from Atlantis. Now, we know Arthur is Atlantean, but for the people who live in the DCEU, proving the existence of Atlantis is going to require more evidence than one guy who happens to be able to breathe underwater.
** Considering how the source material for surface-dweller stories about Atlantis depicts everybody ''drowning'' when it sank, Arthur's water-breathing powers would more plausibly hint that native marine creatures like merfolk or fey water-spirits like nixies might be real than that a ''human'' city's flood survivors could spontaneously transform into aquatic metahumans.

* So the backstory of Atlantis is kinda similar to the one in ''WesternAnimation/AtlantisTheLostEmpire''. There is this powerful artifact that makes Atlantis a technological advanced civilization back when the rest of the world is still in the archaic age, but then the king messed around with it and resulted in the whole city sinking into the sea. The difference is, this Atlantis continues to thrive underwater. Its people manage to rebuild the city and make it even more advanced than before. If they have the ability to do that, why didn't the Atlanteans just get back to living on the surface?

*** Evacuating was impossible given that the tsunamis caused by the trident took the city by surprise. The trident might have been used in emergency by king Atlan to save the inhabitants who took refuge in remaining buildings (the rest died when hit by the tsunamis or crushed by collapsing buildings), mutating them so they could adapt to underwater life.

** Don't forget that Atlantis didn't just vanish. Despite the snobbish views of the Atlanteans in the backstory, they'd already had rivals with the Amazons. It might be better to pretend to be dead while recovering, than to risk an enemy striking at their moment of weakness.

** Saving the sub and letting his son die was presumably NOT an acceptable option, so doing any more damage to the sub if it got his son to leave safely would have been just fine. (It was already thoroughly banged up anyway, and it didn't, in the event, have a very demanding job to do.) If his son did not leave, he'd die too, so risking his son dying in the explosion instead of the incoming water isn't too much of a risk. But the grenade made his father dying (and no longer being someone to hang around trying to save) certain, imminent, and easily timed, as well as a very familiar thing to fear and flee. He's effectively committing suicide, his son cannot stop that, and getting to a safe distance means taking the first steps to getting out and living.

* Mera says that after helping Arthur escape in defiance of then King Orm's will, she could never go home because Atlantis is notoriously unforgiving for slights against the Kingdom. She points out that even Atlanna, daughter of revered King Atlan, was sent to the trench to die for the crime of fraternizing with a land dweller and producing an illegitimate, half-breed heir, an insult to the throne of Atlantis. Atlanna and Mera were both deemed traitors and nearly killed by the reigning kings for "crimes" that didn't actually hurt anyone. Orm did far worse, murdering the King of the Fishermen, instigating a civil war against the Kingdom of the Brine, not to mention outrageously lying and conniving to Atlantis as whole to wage a war that would've killed millions on the low end. It's implied that he would be jailed because Arthur is gracious to his younger brother but don't the Fishermen and the Brine have the right to demand justice for the massive damage he inflicted on their individual kingdoms? Is Arthur's forgiveness enough to protect him from the fallout of murdering one king, attempting to murder a second, and ordering a hit on Arthur that risked the life of the princess of a third kingdom?

** It also depends on how common the knowledge is with Orm's murderous behavior. Remember, the Fishermen and Brine were largely token members of Orm's force, more to do with him claiming title and legal status than about their actual military ability. If Arthur refuses to execute his brother, they might not be able to do much about it.
** Atlantis is his king, basically, and the rule of Kings is absolute. So much that regicide among princes is handwaved as mere ''trial by combat with Gods' consent''. Atlantis was a cruel, cold and unforgiving kingdom because Orvax and Orm were cruel, cold and unforgiving individuals. Atlantis used to be a kind technocracy when Atlan was the king, and lost his ways when Atlan went greedy and exiled himself to atone with his own life. With Arthur as a kind, wise and good natured king with a kind, wise and good natured queen at his side, counseled by a kind, wise and good natured visir, there's no reason for Arthur to lie to Orm. When he agreed with getting him just imprisoned "but having a talk with him when he'll be ready to do so", he literally meant that. Orm will likely be imprisoned until he shows some repentance, periodically visited from Arthur and Atlanna to try to hasten his repentance.

*** It looks like Black Manta is already being setup to fill that niche.

** There is a possibility that The Trench aren't actually all that mindless, just feral, but they may have their own language and tales of King Atlan have still been passed down in their own primative way, also Arthur being in control of what is essentially a Kaiju probably helped matters of "don't mess with this guy"

** It is possible Thomas' parents or grandparents were the ones who initially came over for a better job and Thomas settled on a more meager life as a lighthouse keeper.

** Thomas Curry or his family moving from New Zealand to Maine for some reason is a great deal less weird than his non human girlfriend's immigration.
** Alternately, while the coast of Maine is homogenous, a lighthouse keeper's a pretty isolated job. Maybe he doesn't like the locals much beyond drinking.
** They might be intended to be Native Hawaiian with Māori roots, which is Jason Momoa's real life ancestry. Thomas or his parents moving from Hawaii to the mainland U.S.A. is slightly more plausible than moving all the way from New Zealand.

** Recent motions across the DCEU has established that the Snyder Cut is canon and the theatrical isn't. It takes steps to plug this plot hole (or alternatively it wasn't a plot hole in the Snyder Cut but the theatrical introduced it for unknown reasons, but in part certainly because they cut Vulko from it). Vulko first presents the armour and the quindent to Arthur in an earlier scene so that he can join the fight against Steppenwolf, but he [[RefusalOfTheCall refuses them both]]. Arthur then has the confrontation with Steppenwolf where he takes the Mother Box, and the conversation with Mera which leads to him begrudgingly accepting the Call. Arthur doesn't ask Mera for "something" (ie the weapon and armour), so he must have gone back to Vulko to retrieve them. This makes sense as Vulko was sworn by Atlanna to protect her son, and presumably the best he can do if Arthur happens to be shunning him is hold onto his gear until such time as he wants to talk again. You may have been mistaken when you state "(Aquaman 2018) shows that he always had that trident". Not necessarily. When Vulko is training him as a teenager, he tells Arthur about Atlanna's exile, causing Arthur to angrily toss the quindent at him which could say "I don't want this or anything else you have to offer, old man!". It's possible that Arthur then shunned the quindent (being as it is a reminder of his royal lineage and the pain he feels for/about his mother) until accepting the Call in the Snyder Cut. You may say "but what about the footage in Batman v Superman where he uses it to destroy a drone?". Well, either that was a different quindent which happened to look similar (but doesn't have the baggage associated with the one we usually see him with), or, if it has to be the same one, then at different times in their lives Arthur vacillated between accepting the quindent and just tossing it back at Vulko in anger all over again. Perhaps Aquaman's tie-in novels clarify this point.

*** Nothing really indicates that he knows her in ''Justice League'' (she probably recognizes him because his tattoos are obviously not Atlantean), but he somehow did know where the Mother Box was (not in Atlantis, as confirmed by James Wan recently). He is familiar with the surface world, so he's the most likely dude around her to go immediately after Steppenwolf, and he's the son of the Atlantean queen who raised her, those two reasons are enough to provide him with an armor.

*** Adding to that, before Mera realized it was a tracking device, the only reason to discard the bracelet would be to spite Orm. Mera doesn't hate Orm. She just wants to stop his war by whatever means. Tossing his mother's bracelet in the trash would be a huge insult to him that could come back to haunt her in a big way if she tried being diplomatic with him later.

* King Atlan was the first king who united ancient Atlantis and was also the last because his messing with the trident resulted in Atlantis sinking (otherwise there was no way he could have gone on his exile with the Trident as his skeleton is the one holding it in it's resting place). Only one question: Who was the Atlantean king that [[Film/JusticeLeague2017 fought Steppenwolf?]] According to Wonder Woman, Atlantis was still aboveground when he invaded the first time. Their sinking was their reason for staying out of surface affairs until present day. Could that flashback secretly be his EarlyBirdCameo?
** The Atlantean King in the Justice League Flashback had a different armor and trident from Atlan's. So it was most likely Atlan's predecessor on the throne.

** As with the Mera in the comics, she could have a stronger degree of telekinesis. While the highborns must channel their powers in some way (it's clearly stated that ever single royal willing to engage into combat had his or her trident crafted for that purpose), Mera is powerful enough to do without a focus.

** Vulko still did counsel him well for his whole life. He just planned to sponge off Vulko's knowledge and diplomatic connections until he could, then toss him away shortly before the planned showdown between him and Arthur, get Vulko jailed or killed, Mera forced into marriage or given to the Trench and cement himself as the Ocean Master for life.
** Also, there was likely a bit of uncertainty in just how deep the loyalists ran. Vulko was the one he was certain of, but others could have been involved as well. He was waiting to find out. After Mera defected, and with nobody else going with, he felt certain that he could get rid of Vulko

* Not that it's a serious plot snarl, but where did Arthur's full orange-and-green suit come from? It's like nothing Arthur has ever worn, and neither is it any sort of ceremonial armour; Atlan wears a more traditional sort whenever we see him. The trident might grant some sort of magical clothing, but for it to zap you with an extremely distinctive metal body-suit with no precedent seems like an odd design choice.
** Actually, if you pay close enough attention, Atlan IS wearing the same armor that Aquaman dons to wear during the climax, simply with a breastplate on top of the scale armor. His corpse is seen still clad in it when Arthur goes to claim the trident. He likely put it on before emerging from the waterfall, considering he knew he was going to get involved in a conflict with Orm in some form or another, so he would have wanted protection.

** Most Atlanteans don't seem to live so deep as to be totally beyond the reach of the sun, plus even real world abyssal creatures are not all pale (some are practically black in color). Also, Atlanteans make heavy use of other forms of light.
*** Well photosynthesis can only occur in the first 660feet of surface water, the average depth of the ocean floor is ~12000feet. Point is there would be no biological advantage to melanin so everybody should be very pale. However, very limited access to sunlight inhibits vitamin D production so perhaps their light sources give out UV rays. Or they have tanning salons; seeing as only the elite class could ever get a tan I imagine it would be appealing to be tanned.

** Atlanteans are durable, but not invincible, depends how he got them, either the pin-point pressure of a modern needle is enough to pierce the dermal layer enough, or, tying in with his roots, he got them the traditional way, which is tap tattoos.

** Both brothers' claim to the throne come from their mother. She was already Queen when she met Tom, Aquaman’s father. He just seemed to be the one who had more control in practice either due to being male or due to general support. It isn’t unheard of for a noble to hold as much power as the monarch, and that might be why it was an arranged marriage in the first place. After her death keeping this power could have been through force or simply because his Son was to be king, so he was made regent. It’s never stated.
*** As for why Arthur has a claim without marriage, it’s never fully explained, but a lot of characters state it’s strong including King Nereus, Mera, and possibly Orm who accepts this when he baits Arthur into the “combat of champions” which is a fight for the throne. King Nereus even says it's “stronger” while Mera calls it his “rightful place” to sit on the throne. The system could therefore be something like Agnatic seniority, where the oldest of a generation gets the throne or something like the Ottoman empire where it just goes to the strongest son, and where half-brothers were always considered a problem. Maybe even just primogeniture where marriage in Atlantis could be formal agreement to confirm heirs without any actual law binding only those children. We don’t see anyone, royal or otherwise, take a mistress and the one time someone does, in this case Arthur’s mother, it’s considered enough that she was executed. Maybe marriage just isn’t as important for inheritance. Essentially the laws are anything but the laws the UK has.

* Nevermind how inexplicable it is that Superman would have ignored the tidal wave attack, there is a bigger problem. Thousands of years ago, an army of Atlanteans, Amazons, Olympian Gods, Green Lanterns, and humans were - all together - barely able to defeat Steppenwolf and his army. A few months ago, Superman basically no-sold everything Steppenwolf and his army could throw at him, crushed him like a bug, and then took apart the mother boxes (with Cyborg) and the total result of all that effort is basically him laughing "ouch, that stings". What the bloody hell does Orm think he can do against Superman?

*** I mean, for the folks riding sharks, sure. But some of them ride what look to be...overgrown sea horses. How ferocious and powerful can those be?

** There are two reasons to use a mount (or vehicle): Speed and Stamina. If the mount or vehicle can get you to your destination quicker, or if using the mount or vehicle means you can be less tired when you get there (or get there at all). Swimming so fast is likely physically taxing, so Atlanteans may ride slower beasts that will get them there without being exhausted on arrival, even if it takes longer. Or they might have to traverse a distance they'd be unable to on their own swimming that fast (they'd exhaust themselves before they'd get there), so the beast makes the journey possible at all.

* Why does Dr Shin's StringTheory board treat Arthur's identity as some unknown with a blacked out newspaper clipping? He's apparently well known enough for a bunch of bikers to recognize him at a bar.

** Recent motions across the DCEU has established that the Snyder Cut is canon and the theatrical isn't. It takes steps to plug this plot hole (or alternatively it wasn't a plot hole in the Snyder Cut but the theatrical introduced it for unknown reasons, but in part certainly because they cut Vulko from it). Vulko first presents the armour and the quindent to Arthur in an earlier scene so that he can join the fight against Steppenwolf, but he [[RefusalOfTheCall refuses them both]]. Arthur then has the confrontation with Steppenwolf where he takes the Mother Box, and the conversation with Mera which leads to him begrudgingly accepting the Call. Arthur doesn't ask Mera for the weapon and armour, so he must have gone back to Vulko to retrieve them. You may have been mistaken when you state "(Aquaman 2018) shows that he always had that trident. Not necessarily. When Vulko is training him as a teenager, he tells Arthur about Atlanna's exile, causing Arthur to angrily toss the quindent at him which could say "I don't want this, old man!". It's possible that Arthur then shunned the quindent (being as it is a reminder of his royal lineage and the pain he feels for/about his mother) until accepting the Call in the Snyder Cut. You may say "but what about the footage in Batman v Superman where he uses it to destroy a drone?". Well, either that was a different quindent which happened to look similar (but doesn't have the baggage associated with the one we usually see him with), or, if it has to be the same one, then at different times in their lives Arthur vacillated between accepting the quindent and just tossing it back at Vulko in anger all over again. Perhaps Aquaman's tie-in novels clarify this point.

* In ''Film/{{Justice League|2017}}'', Arthur meets Mera briefly and at the end of the exchange, tells her "I am gonna need something from you". The next time we see him, he has his mother's trident, implying that Mera got it for him. This movie shows he has always had that trident. What did Mera give him?
** She most likely gave him the Atlantean armored suit he wears in the film, which might be some sort of royal heritage she might have had access to since she's betrothed to Orm, or perhaps the Xebellian royal family kept it after the sinking of the original Atlantis. The ancient Atlantean king who led his people in battle against Steppenwolf ages ago wore a similar (albeit more golden) suit.
** We're, uh, all going to just ignore that he went all the way to Mera in Justice League, clearly knows her, gets a favor off her, and doesn't even know her name yet?

** Both brother’s claim to the throne come from their mother. She was already Queen when she met Tom, Aquaman’s father. He just seemed to be the one who had more control in practice either due to being male or due to general support. It isn’t unheard of for a noble to hold as much power as the monarch, and that might be why it was an arranged marriage in the first place. After her death keeping this power could have been through force or simply because his Son was to be king, so he was made regent. It’s never stated.

* Why does Dr Shin's StringTheory board treat Arthur's identity as some unknown with a blacked out newpaper clipping? He's apparently well known enough for a bunch of bikers to recognize him at a bar.

*** Well photosynthesis can only occur in the first 660feet of surface water, the average depth of the ocean floor is ~12000feet. Point is there would be no biological advantage to melanin so everybody should be very pale. However, very limited access to sunlight inhibits vitamin D production so perhaps their light sources give out UV rays. Or they have tanning salons; seeing as only the elite class could ever get a tan I imagine it would be appealing to be tanned. [[/folder]]

** Another possibility is that the mounts allow more freedom in combat. Swimming makes it harder to simultaneously fight and move well (generally limiting attacks to a very narrow frontal cone without risking collisions), whereas a trained mount can be trusted to navigate independently from the rider, freeing them up to focus on fighting

** Most of the time they're seen riding sea creatures is during battle, so presumably their mounts are chosen more for their ferocity and power than travels speed alone.

[[folder: If Arthur can't be hurt by non Atlantis stuff, how did he get his tattoos?]]
* Did he seriously ask Vulko to bring him a tattoo needle from Atlantis?
[[/folder]]

* It's mentioned that the Atlantis is made up of Seven Kingdoms and ruled by a Council of Kings (Orm and Mera's father being two of them in the present day), and that Queen Atlanna was betrothed to King Orvax as a child. It's this troper's theory that Atlanna was the heir to Atlantis proper and Orvax was the king of another kingdom and that their betrothal was some sort of alliance between the two kingdoms (possibly Atlantis and Xebel, with Nereus and Orm inheriting the respective crowns when Orvax died). And that when they refer to something done by Orvax or "by order of King Orvax" they mean he petitioned the Council of Kings (or perhaps held sway over the Council). Could be a WMG on my part, though.

* Nevermind how inexplicable it is that Superman would have ignored the tidal wave attack, there is a bigger problem. Thousands of years ago, an army of Atlanteans, Amazons, Olympian Gods, Green Lanterns, and humans were - all together - barely able to defeat Steppenwolf and his army. A few months ago, Superman basically no-sold everything Steppenwolf and his army could throw at him, crushed him like a bug, and then took apart the mother boxes (with Cyborg) and the total result of all that effort is basicall him laughing "ouch, that stings". What the bloody hell does Orm think he can do against Superman?
** Remember where they found that big chunk of Kryptonite in [=BvS=]? In the ocean. It was unlikely to be the only chunk that fell from the World Engine, so it's plausible that Orm found some.

[[folder: If Arthur can't be hurt by non atlantis stuff, how did he get his tattoos?]]
* Did he seriously ask Vulko to bring him a tattoo needle from atlantis?

* They have to believe in aliens because of the Kryptonian invasion, but there's no real evidence of Amazons or Atlanteans existing.
** It depends whether or not Diana talked about her people as she's now public knowledge, and whether or not King Arthur of Atlantis/Aquaman chooses to make his kingdom's existence known to the surface world after the end of ''Aquaman''.
*** Diana's still maintaining some kind of a secret identity per the Justice League movie, and was laying low before joining Bruce and Clark in [=BvS=]. People know a superheroine exists, and presumably call her Wonder Woman. That's probably about the extent of knowledge.
*** Diana is seen working alongside the police to arrest some art thieves at the end of ''Justice League'', in broad daylight and with kids coming at her, so people definitely know of Wonder Woman's existence when ''Aquaman'' starts.
*** We know that Wonder Woman has been talking to the public (from one of the newspaper clippings shown in ''Aquaman'' -- apparently she's denied dating Aquaman), but there's no indication she's mentioned Themyscira (though there's no real indication she ''hasn't'', either).
*** FreezeFrameBonus from ''Batman v Superman'': Lois Lane wrote an article titled "Amazon woman and the Batman help combat Lex Luthor's plans" after the Doomsday fight. So the public knows Amazons exist.
*** "Amazon Woman" could be taken several ways, not necessarily that she was one of ''those'' Amazons. We use the term in real life without meaning that a woman is a mythological warrior.
*** Lois would've more likely used "warrior woman" if Diana didn't tell her she is an Amazon. The straightforward words of other newspaper articles by her suggest she wouldn't go that poetic.
*** The existence of Amazons does not necessarily prove the existence of Atlantis the same way it doesn't prove the existence of any other myth, such as Bigfoot or the Loch Ness Monster. Also, Atlantis is a very secretive society that does not want to be discovered, and Arthur himself values his privacy. If Diana told the world about Amazons, she may have refrained from confirming Atlantis to avoid upsetting anyone.
** Originally, Atlantis only appeared as part of an allegory in Plato's ''The Republic'' as an enemy of Athens, and while it's been theorized that he might have been inspired by older civilizations, Atlantis specifically has always been fictional, the myths around it just sort of ballooned in the following millenia. DC's pseudoscientists could apparently not offer any further proof than those in the real world could, and one guy who can breathe underwater and talk to fish could just be a random mutation in a universe with superpowers.

* Orm valued Vulko, but knew he could turn on him. He saw him as someone to keep close for as long as he needed him, but not to be overly trusted.

* So the backstory of Atlantis is kinda similar to the one in ''Disney/AtlantisTheLostEmpire''. There is this powerful artifact that makes Atlantis a technological advanced civilization back when the rest of the world is still in the archaic age, but then the king messed around with it and resulted in the whole city sinking into the sea. The difference is, this Atlantis continues to thrive underwater. Its people manage to rebuild the city and make it even more advanced than before. If they have the ability to do that, why didn't the Atlanteans just get back to living on the surface?