This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
Clipped from Training From Hell Discussion:
There's a Western example that I don't think is represented on this wiki: the scifi ultra-hardass military training regimen that produces ultra-hardass soldiers by methods that would drive every human rights activist on the planet into a rage if they hadn't already been shot. Live-fire exercises that involve missiles, casualty percentages in the double digits, all that. We've got:
- Starship Troopers, both the book and the film
- The Forever War, the book
- System Shock 2, which is Cyberpunk and therefore quite justified
- That one book where they're not on Earth and everyone is a Wiccan
- Surprisingly, GDI's [the good guys'] commando program in Command & Conquer: Tiberium Wars
Ununnilium: Hmmmmm. Sounds good, but what does everybody else think?
colin: This sounds like some training for soldiers in history, namely Spartan warriors. I say we add it.
Seth: And that one with the comandoes who are raised from birth treated brutaly ect ect. only to be replaced by a new generation of geneticaly engineered soldiers. Anyone know what i'm talking about? (Later - A wikipedia search for Supersoldier pointed me in the right direction. The film was Soldier
)
I think that this western variation is worthy of its own trope. The Spartian Way? Torture The Troops, Super Soldiers Need Super Training. I like The Spartian Way since the Hoplites are probably the ur-example.
Also, what about River from firefly? Or Elektra?
Lale: I like the last one the most. However, I've always read it as "Spartan." But I'm not positive.
colin: It is Spartan, not Spartian.
Seth: The Spartan Way then :p
So do people think that River (Made insane during her super soldier training) or Elektra (Raised from one master to the other) are examples of this or Training from Hell?
Lale: I just didn't add them because I've never heard of them, and I had no description to work with.
Seth: I think River (Her training was part of a program) fits here but i'm leaning towards Elektra (Of marvel fame) being in training from hell since it was just her.
colin: What about the training seen in Enger's Game? While there were few casualties, the training was very harsh.
Morgan Wick: Incidentially, Seth, we usually say where lead-up discussion came from.
Seth: You know i've done these mark-ups like fifty times, someone always calls you up on it the one time you forget. There is no smiley for shame :(
Tunod: You know, I'm thoroughly disappointed this entry doesn't mention Halo. It's got to be the ultimate distillation of the trope; the supersoldiers are even called Spartans (for exactly the reason that the program that churns them out resembles The Spartan Way in concept.)
Ununnilium: You know, there's this thing called a wiki, where anyone can add any information they like! ``
Sebastian Could I raise an objection to the novel Starship Troopers being included in this trope? The boot camp and training hardships in the novel are actually polite versions of the army boot camp training Robert Heinlein knew of from his living through—and serving in—World War II. His D Is are actually less vulgar and more intellectual than most D Is in most armies back in the 40s and 50s. The movie, of course, is a modern movie violence freak's version of boot camp. Most of the sadists and freaks running it would have been up on "Section 8" charges in any real army. Contrary to some modern traditions of "Political Correctness," military training is designed to turn out disciplined soldiers, not berserk killers.
Thomas: I think it fits fine: yes the D Is are polite, but the training itself is no joke: living in the Arctic in tents, martial arts trained to a high enough intensity to occasionally break bones (if no holds are barred), 1/500 live to blank rounds for combat training, survival tests without clothing, ruck marches from hell, caloric deprivation, and an attrition rate that left some 160 recruits out of 2000 (and killed several). This is certainly much tougher than any modern training short of special operations. The fact that it is not a brutal fantasy constructed by a Hollywood nonveteran doesn't mean it doesn't fit the mold of training from hell.
Luke Johnson: It fits this trope to a T, really. In the book, they started out with 2009 recruits and graduated 187, with 14 dead. Despite how sadistic the movie's training was, the book's was a lot harder, and more effective.
Dr Dedman: Killed this (after someone killed my extra level edit. This is just wrong, the later troops are weird, but not Spartan-like (they fight among themselves, are insubordinate, and not at all bloodthirsty). We only here about the "Spartan" troops secondhand (when William's drinking with the cyborg) and it's stated that program was a failure.
- However, after the main character meets humans a hundred generation older (having been travelling near-lightspeed for centuries) he discovers the new model soldiers are eugenically bred and terrifically good at their jobs.
Large Blunt Object: Pulled
- Enders Game features a school designed to produce super generals by applying a psychological version of Training from Hell.
- Actually, it was just targeted towards Ender, making it just Training from Hell, as opposed to The Spartan Way.
- Huh? Every student had to go through the same training. Making it right back to The Spartan Way again.
- Not quite. Ender was transfered sooner, give stricter regulations when given his army early, ect.
- It's arguably both. The battle school is the Spartan Way, but Ender gets an even worse version which ends up being Training from Hell
- Actually, it was just targeted towards Ender, making it just Training from Hell, as opposed to The Spartan Way.
natter, and doesn't fit with this trope.
I'd just like the point out that the real life reference from WW 2 is false. For example, the SS had superior training, and had a ridiculously high kill ratio, a prime example of the "super soldier" theory works. This also goes for all other branches of the German war machine... while not on super soldier level, their superior training and insane dicipline, made them extremely effective soldiers who generally caused more casualties than they took. Again, the extreme example would be the SS, which had a very rigorous selection process, better weapons, better training and a fanatical dedication. Not surprisingly, the Space Marines were likely based on them. "But the allies won the war!" Yes, because they outproduced and outnumbered the Germans, but because they outfought them. This was also shown again during the vietnam war, where the Americans had a much higher kill ratio than the vietcong, and more recently in the middle east, where the American troops completely dominate their opponents. In the latter case, take into account that the Americans have to follow the laws of war and basically treat their enemies humanely... this isn't the case in most fiction, so if you imagine Iraq fighting against a fascist America, the war would have been over in a week, as there would be no more Iraqis left to fight.
- Micheal Z. Williamson's "The Weapon" has the Freehold's special forces Operatives undergo similar training, to the point that One hundred or so of them with minimal support pretty much destroy the UN ruled Earth, killing billions in the the process.
- Before anyone's suspension of disbelief entirely implodes, some points: the Operatives required years of preparation, their acts of sabotage included the use of tacnukes, bioweapons, and nerve gas, and there was only one Operative who survived the massive Earth-wide manhunt for them after their attack and that only by pure luck bordering on divine providence.
I only read forum posts about the book (apparently it's bad), but I thought the main attack involved crashing starships into the surface, using jump drives of some kind to bypass Earth's space defenses. —Document N
Chuckg: No, the suicide ramming spaceships were largely used against UN ships and bases in orbit around Freehold. The Operatives' attack on Earth was terrorism on an epic scale, often involving WM Ds.
Chuckg: Re: Cassandra Cain's usefulness, the answer is, she was intended to be a living weapon for Ra's al Ghul. Presumably all the logistics of reading, writing, target selection, transport, housing, etc., would be taken care of for her — they'd simply show her a picture of the target, turn her loose on a rooftop adjacent from the target's place of residence, and step back to watch the fireworks. After the mission's over, she comes back, they clean her up and give her a ride home. Think of it as owning a self-deploying reusable cruise missile with feet.
