Reviews Comments: Two Parts, One Good and One Not
Two Parts, One Good and One Not
After Deadliest Warrior, people everywhere were clamoring to try and apply the format to pop culture's most recognizable characters. Really, it's understandable—the crossover battle caters to the primal urge of throwing two recognizable powerhouses at each other and watching the sparks fly, if only because the resulting fight would (usually) be fucking awesome. Death Battle is one of many bandwagon hoppers, specializing in exactly that. Wizard and Boomstick are two commentators who present a vague overview of each character before throwing in an animated fight sequence to the death—a concept easily summed up. The problem in copying the Deadliest Warrior format, however, quickly becomes evident. The first part of each episode are where the problems lie. Putting a lot of valid criticisms aside, Deadliest Warrior did more than just "who would win in a fight", it also introduced cultures, weapons, and etc that others hadn't even heard of and brought them up. It also (again, a lot of valid criticisms aside) had physical items to measure, test, and compare to the legends surrounding it. At the end of the day, there was something you could tangibly evaluate. Death Battle, on the other hand, often boils down to theory-craft of "He would TOTALLY do this! That means he wins!", picking and choosing bits of canon (and frequently non-canon or fanon) that applies to their arguments while ignoring plenty more. On the other hand, the second parts of the episodes, the actual fight scenes, is where shit gets real. It's amazing to see these characters brought to life on the battlefield again, bringing their signature moves and abilities and putting them to the test. Jordan Lange's talents as of episode 20 only cemented this even further, and every match since has been simply harder, faster, and greater all around. It's such a shame, then, that only the last three minutes are dedicated to his talents, but what a magnificent three minutes they are. In the end, Death Battle is best treated like a You Tube meme video. Roll your eyes at the bullshit, skip to the good part, laugh a little and go about your day. Fans of franchises would do best to steer clear, but those who can bite their tongue and just go "Whatever, it's just a video" to more glaring inconsistencies might find some good times anyway.
When have they ever used fanon? Is there a particular episode that bothers you?
comment #16390 son 5th Oct 12
Yeah. This doesn't sound like an actual review.
comment #17160 IronBloodAika 9th Dec 12
^ why not? I myself always felt that there was bias is the information gathering.
comment #17161 marcellX 9th Dec 12
@marcellX Can you give an example of bias?
comment #17166 son 10th Dec 12
^ Yeah, you're not being very convincing.
comment #17189 IronBloodAika 11th Dec 12
^ isn't rather hypocritical of you to join in and still not explain why is not a review? For example there's Leo vs the battletoad, Leonardo apparently beat Zitz because of besting him simply on one feature, which seems based upon the battlefield they chose, which similar to Yoshi vs Riptor means that they could only win on a set of battlefields, which even so was a strange result given that it contradicted Felicia vs Taokaka. In Link cs Cloud saying in they'll chose their best weapons, etc. but when it was turn for Cloud changing their own rule and opp for the most (apparently) iconic ones, which also happen in the Kratos vs Spawn fight with them forgetting that he can pull out souls with the claws of Hades (which I can't remember well but I think he even used during the battle).
comment #17194 marcellX 11th Dec 12
"Yeah. This doesn't sound like an actual review." It is.
comment #17199 TerminusEst13 11th Dec 12
No, not really. Especially if you payed attention when they said the fight they animate isn't what determines who win or loses. They decide that long in advance through research and debates. The battles themselves are a fun way for them to treat the viewers and show off their findings.
comment #17285 IronBloodAika 16th Dec 12
That doesn't stop making it a review, you're just throwing around complaints.
comment #17287 marcellX 16th Dec 12
I agree. Just because the opinion isn't your own, suddenly it's not a review? Bring up a valid points: did he simply say he didn't like it and cry for half a page? I don't think so. While I agree the OP could have clarified that "fanon" part, I agree with him on some of his points. Leonardo is a better warrior because he's trained in the way of the ninja? That's bullcrap. Zitz is a FREAKING BATTLETOAD. Not only is he not weighed down by a code of honor or specific fighting style, he can transform his body into different objects just to kick more ass. I'm not saying Leonardo isn't a strong fighter, but come on - he'd have a hard time beating a creature born to kick ass, especially when that creature isn't afraid to play dirty. And Yoshi Vs Riptor. Just... ugh. I get what Yoshi did, but come on. Not only did Riptor land more hits than Mike Tyson boxing on coke, but in the end he was... what again? Either he was eaten and spat out as an egg, or he was eaten and spat out as an egg - into an open pit. It seems that the writers and animators of Death Battle seem to favour the "popular" characters in their fights. Everyone grew up with the ninja turtles, whether it was the 80's show or the 2003 show (and there's even a 2012 show now!), while Battletoads got maybe 3 games and a decent cult following. Everyone knows Yoshi, and your average Nintendo or Arcade fan might know about Riptor. Even the Doomguy Vs Master Chief battle had shades of this: Doomguy picked up an invincibility thing, din't he? And he still had his ass handed to him after whaling on the Chief. It's not about who'd be more likely to win, or even who wants it most: It seems to me, at least, to be based off the popularity of the characters. I could be wrong about the endings to some battles, it has been a while since I've actually watched a Death Battle. If I've messed up just how a battle has ended, just tell me.
comment #17290 MrMallard 17th Dec 12
You're the one throwing around complaints. And as for Mallard, you seem to be under the idea that the fights we see at the end are what comes first and what's decided on who wins. Do you even hear or read the literal list of reasons on why and how the fighters won or lost?
comment #17292 IronBloodAika 17th Dec 12
ok prove it, if I am and you're not, then why don't you stop being such a hypocrite and explain why is not a review?
comment #17296 marcellX 17th Dec 12
Because you bring up them using fanon as facts for their fights, but don't bring any examples of which fights they were and what exactly that fact was. Also you seem to think that a show like Deadliest Warrior makes more sense just because they had psychical things to test. Forgiving the fact that they had inconsitant tests on the weapons they were comparing, which is not something one does for a scientific test. But also that even though there were many Spartans and Samurai, they were all different people with different battle styles and tactics between them that can't be accurately measured or averaged out by a program, even if they still existed today. Compared to Death Battle were all the combatants are characters who have well documented limits, abilities, and personalities that weigh in on their fights and help decided outcomes, which makes it much easier, but also harder, to decide a victor instead of the fight of "who has the biggest weapon", we saw in Deadliest Warrior.
comment #17297 IronBloodAika 17th Dec 12
@Aika: No one has suggested that the fights came first or that there's no information gathering or reasoning behind the wins. What people have been complaining about is the information being cherry-picked, and the reasoning being faulty
comment #17298 Hylarn 17th Dec 12
@Hylarn Can I get an example of this "cherry-picking" or faulty reasoning?
comment #17299 IronBloodAika 17th Dec 12
All that are reasons (be it true or not but that's not the point) of a bad or incorrect review, it's still very much a review, that's why I said you're throwing around complaints. I greatly disagree as you can see with this review of Avatar, and there's a long discussion about the problems with the points expressed, but it's still a review. On a side note the big error in what you just said is that there are many ways to determine an average, which was what Deadliest Warriors did, of course they're different people, but in that same way penis length based on ethnicity and region, life expectancy of a region, period of time, etc. and a million others can be measured. They never said that all person A would beat all person B, but that the average person A would beat the average person B.
comment #17300 marcellX 17th Dec 12
Can I get an example of this "cherry-picking" or faulty reasoning?can you read and stop wasting our time.
comment #17301 marcellX 17th Dec 12
oh sorry forgot to link, I was talking about this review http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/review_comments.php?id=4629#listtop not that's there's anything special about that one, as most of the reviews here are still reviews.
comment #17302 marcellX 17th Dec 12
Okay, you can't average that out, especially how you don't know how the program they claim comes up with the solutions finds it's solutions. Also, the show itself doesn't follow the sort of basics any scientific study should. They compare two weapons in the same category, but don't give them the same test to compare the results. If they both have swords they'll have one stab a pig and one stab a gel torso. Those aren't gonna give results you can compare accurately. That's the basic scientific method. Also your claims of cherry picking are rendered rather moot when you don't give examples to what you're talking about and the one guy who does bases it SOLELY on the animated fights and not the actual research.
comment #17307 IronBloodAika 17th Dec 12
The show's validity wasn't the thing in question it was that your statement was flawed and this now is just Moving The Goalposts.
Also your claims of cherry picking are rendered rather moot when you don't give examples to what you're talking about and the one guy who does bases it SOLELY on the animated fights and not the actual research.If you don't even bother to read you're just wasting our time having to point things out in a discussion that only has 20 post, 8 of which are mine and of which 3 are would be just one post if they would let us edit posts again.
For example there's Leo vs the battletoad, Leonardo apparently beat Zitz because of besting him simply on one feature, which seems based upon the battlefield they chose
which similar to Yoshi vs Riptor means that they could only win on a set of battlefields
which even so was a strange result given that it contradicted Felicia vs Taokaka.here I was talking about how Yoshi is said to be able to take a punch even when facing a gorish fighting game opponent.
In Link cs Cloud saying in they'll chose their best weapons, etc. but when it was turn for Cloud changing their own rule and opp for the most (apparently) iconic ones.Take in mind before you come again with your goalpost moving and flawed reasoning, that whether you agree or not is not relevant in this case, since you said and I quote "when you don't give examples" which makes it an outright lie.
comment #17309 marcellX 17th Dec 12
You aren't giving examples of what exactly was cherry picked you were just naming fights without ever saying what your problem was. And again, you're putting too much scope in the f'ing animations themselves. And I don't see how Cloud was at a disadvantage to Link, when Link was using the Master Sword when he's had several 2-handed swords that were more powerful. And how was Felicia and Taokaka's fight a contradiction, when they're two completely different fighters? Yoshi won because of durability and versatility, something that Felicia lacked against Taokaka's attacks. Also Leo's faced foes like the Battletoads in size and strength and won, while the Toads have never faced foes like the turtles who are faster and able to use strategy and use the environment to their advantage.
comment #17310 IronBloodAika 17th Dec 12
You aren't giving examples of what exactly was cherry picked you were just naming fights without ever saying what your problem was.I even bold them, it's like you're not even trying to hide how flawed most of what you say is.
And again, you're putting too much scope in the f'ing animations themselves.I'm not putting emphasis on the animation, but the animation does reveal the bias. Ok you say that Yoshi could beat Riptor, how? Riptor is a character of a gory fighting game, which means he can be stabbed with a sword, a japanese katana, laser swords, flaming axes and plasma claws repeatedly, electrocuted, frozen several times by an ice alien, fighting a man made of fire, etc. and still keep fighting. What attack can Yoshi do to kill him, well he can throw him on a lava pit, what lava pit you ask, the one we put in this fight, which makes the result extremely situational, which is the same with Leonardo vs Zitz, hey I know it was a close fight and would had seen the reasoning for him winning, but when, again it's based on the field they chose. They try to reason this saying that riptor's face was gonna melt but as I pointed above, Riptor can more than withstand one of it's own attacks, specially when Yoshi did the same things Riptor's opponents did in KI.
And I don't see how Cloud was at a disadvantage to Link, when Link was using the Master Sword when he's had several 2-handed swords that were more powerfulFirst of all is not a thing about advantage but fairness. One thing is that the reason they didn't gave him a two handed weapon was because then he would had died without his shield since his defense without it is not very impressive, unlike Cloud who keeps fighting after being stabbed with a swords longer than he is. Link was even given the power gloves which I think he only used in one game, Cloud was given his weakest weapon, which while iconic there's still the one he replaced it with, I led this sly but then with only two materia slots, they gave him firaga and thundaga on the logic that he has these attacks in a non-canon crossover game, instead of using stronger magic iconic to the FF series, like Ultima or Cure (or any of it's variations). And that was just a complaint with the tools choosing, they themselves admit that the golden gloves don't increase Link's striking power, and the armor Cloud had halves all magical and physical damage, and given that Link's attacks aren't that powerful (which is why resorts to hitting weak points) and that the boots increase speed they're not as fast Cloud (they themselves showed the fight with Sephiroth were Cloud can move like a flash of light). Note that these aren't things based on the battle scene but their comments at the end about the reasons Link won, where they said that his inventory somehow managed to make him on the same level as Cloud.
And how was Felicia and Taokaka's fight a contradiction, when they're two completely different fighters? Yoshi won because of durability and versatility, something that Felicia lacked against Taokaka's attacks.Exactly, Felicia is a fighting character but against someone who uses more deadly force and weapons she loses, which should had been the same for Yoshi fighting an opponent that's repeatedly slashing you and hitting you with attacks strong enough to go through whatever material Fulgore (a machine made to fight all these superpowered beings) was made off.
comment #17319 marcellX 18th Dec 12
Sorry after checking again, it was just a pit, which it's wrong for a whole number of different reasons but I digress, the point still stands.
comment #17320 marcellX 18th Dec 12
See, that's what really got me: Yoshi somehow took all those attacks like he was made of rubber, from a FUCKING VELOCIRAPTOR BRED TO FIGHT, from a fighting franchise. A good point you brought up is how the fight ended: with Riptor being thrown into a pit. That win was solely because Yoshi and Riptor were fighting next to a pit, conveniently in the series which contains said pits. If the fight had happened on a KI level, Riptor most certainly would have kicked Yoshi's ass, except for maybe the 3 which are situated on rooftops where the same thing could have happened. I wouldn't mind if Riptor lost on a KI map, because it'd show that even on Riptor's home turf Yoshi had the necessary skills to win the fight, adapting to a new environment at the very least to knock Riptor out for a win. But no. They fight on Yoshi's turf, Yoshi takes an obscene amount of damage and yet he still manages to get the win by swallowing Riptor and SPITTING HIM/HER INTO A PIT. Yoshi can take enough damage to kill Rasputin, but Riptor can't use his/her claws to climb out of a pit, or at least cling to the side. That's not so much a win as it is a cop-out.
comment #17321 MrMallard 18th Dec 12
Wow, this is just sad. I'm listening to everything you're saying, but no matter how many times I tell you exactly where in the video and fight that that's not true, you still claim they're biased on this. For one thing, Link's had those Gauntlets since the early games, they weren't just introduced in the Ocarina of Time. They weren't always gauntlets or the same name, but strength enhancing items have always been a mainstay. Also, I don't see how you're complaining about the fact Cloud got his iconic weapon, when Link got his own iconic weapon. Also, you're acting like Riptor just tripped and fell down a whole completely ignoring that he took acid to the face. And the sheer fact that you're clinging to this belief that animations are proof of bias is just ridiculous.
comment #17324 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
"Because you bring up them using fanon as facts for their fights, but don't bring any examples of which fights they were and what exactly that fact was. Also you seem to think that a show like Deadliest Warrior makes more sense just because they had psychical things to test." He is not me.
comment #17326 TerminusEst13 18th Dec 12
Link's Master Sword is his most powerful weapon. Cloud's Buster sword is one of his weakest. It may look cool, but compared to a sword passed down from Link to Link every hundred years or so, it's tin foil. It's like sending out a tiger with a meat skewer taped to its head to fight a goat with a suit of knives. The next time you respond, which I'm sure you will, can you name exactly what games Link has had the Gauntlets in? I haven't played many Lo Z games, and I'd love to know in which games Link gets power-up gauntlets. (Link's had strength enhancers since the "early days"? The closest Link got to a "strength enhancing item" in Link To The Past is a hammer. Does he get a pair in Legend of Zelda 1 or 2? Link's Awakening? Please, make your points clearly: don't just say "early days" and say Ocarina of Time: there are at least 3 games made before that.)
comment #17328 MrMallard 18th Dec 12
@Terminus I know, I don't think I've talked to you once. @Mr Mallard Actually in certain games, it isn't his most powerful. That would be the Great Fairy Sword or The Biggoron Sword, they do technically more damage, but lack the evil slaying enchantments on it or the ties to the Triforce of Power. The Sword is powerful, but it's not like it's powerful by itself. It's the wielder who determines how good the blade is. Same with Cloud and his has the advantage in size, weight, and built in/customizable magic. Power Bracelet (Introduced in Legend of Zelda 1987) Handy Mitt (The Adventure of Link 1988) Power Glove Titan's Mitt (Introduced in A Link to the Past 1992)
comment #17329 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
Wow, this is just sad. I'm listening to everything you're saying, but no matter how many times I tell you exactly where in the video and fight that that's not true, you still claim they're biased on this.when have you done this, this is just a very poor Argumentum Ad Lapidembut but given that I proved above that you're a liar and a poor one at that too, this doesn't come as a surprise.
Also, you're acting like Riptor just tripped and fell down a whole completely ignoring that he took acid to the face.and you're completely ignoring that huge text about how Riptor is able to take these kinds of attacks all the time "They try to reason this saying that riptor's face was gonna melt but as I pointed above, Riptor can more than withstand one of it's own attacks, specially when Yoshi did the same things Riptor's opponents did in KI.", you're level of hypocrisy is incredible, maybe if you stop with so many Ad Hominem instead of actually discussing things people you would debate better and I wouldn't waste so much time just pointing out how low and shady you're debating is.
Also, I don't see how you're complaining about the fact Cloud got his iconic weapon, when Link got his own iconic weapon.Because Cloud's iconic weapon is his weakest one while Link's master sword overall it's one if not his strongest (before you come with this again and I got a feeling you will, remember what I said about two handed weapons leaving him more vulnerable), but look at how they chose that category again everything else was from all games (which benefit's Link that has so many games) while the weapon had to be chosen from the ones they used on a fighting game (which hinders Cloud greatly), why? why is this part chosen differently from the others?
For one thing, Link's had those Gauntlets since the early games, they weren't just introduced in the Ocarina of Time. They weren't always gauntlets or the same name, but strength enhancing items have always been a mainstay.Do I really need to point all the flaws in that? he had those gauntlets before but they weren't gauntlets, it's possibly his strongest strength gain item, not to mention, they were other items that increased strength but not to that level and not to the same effect, the one he uses the most would probably be the power bracelet but that power increase is not even close to the golden gauntlets. Not to mention that my complain was actually that if they picked the best arsenal for Link, why they picked Thundaga and Firaga for Cloud.
And the sheer fact that you're clinging to this belief that animations are proof of bias is just ridiculous.Argumentum Ad Lapidem not to mention that I clearly explained that the animation is not proof of bias, but that it revealed the aspect. It's their animation, it's just for flash and even so they couldn't come up with a way for Yoshi to beat Riptor and as a result had to do something very situational, not to mention that just as easily Yoshi could had fell too. Battlefields are just for visualization but when they have an effect on the outcome it becomes unfair. After all, it's the reason they're banned in fighting tournaments like SMB.
comment #17331 marcellX 18th Dec 12
Power Bracelet (Introduced in Legend of Zelda 1987) Handy Mitt (The Adventure of Link 1988) Power Glove Titan's Mitt (Introduced in A Link to the Past 1992)All of which only give him a boost of strength to the not so impressive Link (again, who mostly has to resort to hitting weak points), being able to lift rocks and statues or breaking small boulders, nothing to the level of the golden gauntlets.
it isn't his most powerful. That would be the Great Fairy Sword or The Biggoron Sword, they do technically more damage, but lack the evil slaying enchantmentswhich like I said are "stronger" but not more "powerful", they need to be held with two hands, which means Link can't use his shield, and don't have any magical properties like the master sword, like absorbing electricity (oh and look what attack they gave Cloud).
comment #17332 marcellX 18th Dec 12
Also, they went by the "chronological" first Link. Since the whole business with Links started with him. Light Based magic. And by that I don't mean "good" magic.
comment #17333 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
Also you're the one being an f'ing hypocrite in that you're not even willing to do you're own damn research on anything and just taking what the show offers and twisting it to bitch about your characters not winning.
comment #17334 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
Also you're the one being an f'ing hypocrite in that you're not even willing to do you're own damn research on anything and just taking what the show offers and twisting it to bitch about your characters not winning.Argumentum Ad Lapidem, you know what I'm done here, this is just pathetic now.
comment #17335 marcellX 18th Dec 12
Same here. You're an idiot.
comment #17336 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
For those just joining us:
- Aika began by saying this does not classify as a review after a comment by Son, asking if the reviewer could give an example of fanon being used.
- Marcell replied that he thought the show's information was biased in some/most cases.
- son asked if Marcell could give an example of bias, and Aika replied with "you don't sound too convincing", when he had just voiced his opinion.
- Marcell made a case for his opinion, which was ignored by Aika for a comment made by the reviewer saying his review was intended to be serious. Aika tried to argue that no, the review was not at all a review, because the reviewer got their facts wrong.
- EVERYBODY, INCLUDING ME, BITCHED FOR OVER 20 COMMENTS
comment #17337 MrMallard 18th Dec 12
comment #17338 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
Also an example doesn't ask for an opinion.
comment #17339 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
But I don't want to risk starting this agin.
comment #17340 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
The irony being the reviewer himself was the quiet person the whole time. I'm glad my writing inspires passion in you guys, I guess? :p
comment #17341 TerminusEst13 18th Dec 12
comment #17342 IronBloodAika 18th Dec 12
Leonardo beating Zits can be justified. I'd say a Zits victory would have to involve a Zits favored environment (cage match or open field). Leo didn't have to use the sewer to win the fight, he could have continued outside using stealth if the animators were more creative. Yoshi vs. Riptor was proving that Yoshi "could" beat Riptor not that he always would. It was a semi-gag fight, look at the description. Link vs. Cloud I'm not at liberty to justify it because I know little about them.
comment #17361 son 20th Dec 12
I disagree. I find both parts of the episodes good. In fact, there are times where I prefer the analysis over the fight.
comment #17653 Awesomekid42 12th Jan 13
Leo didn't have to use the sewer to win the fight, he could have continued outside using stealth if the animators were more creative.I have heard about Battletoads, but most of my information about Zits actually came from their video, the issue was never what character won, but why and how, in this case personally if it was up to bias preference Leo would had won, even after their description I could see how either one could win in a believable way, but the end result is still a tackle on the issue of fairness. If the battlefield helps the loser, it shows that even with that advantage the other would had won, but if it's the winner then it seems unfair. That is like having a battle were one of the challengers has electric powers on a battlefield that has a pool.
Yoshi vs. Riptor was proving that Yoshi "could" beat Riptor not that he always would. It was a semi-gag fight, look at the description.sorry, didn't knew that
Link vs. Cloud I'm not at liberty to justify it because I know little about them.You don't really have to know that much about them as the issue there wasn't so much the result as the bias on the rules.
comment #17677 marcellX 13th Jan 13
Same here. You're an idiot.Your maturity and originality overwhelms me.
comment #17678 marcellX 13th Jan 13
Good to know you're commenting on posts months after the argument ended.
comment #17689 IronBloodAika 14th Jan 13
Good to know you're commenting on posts months after the argument ended.I didn't realize December 18th, 2012 was "months" ago.
comment #17691 Scardoll 14th Jan 13
^ don't be surprised, I was actually expecting something lower and or shadier.
comment #17692 marcellX 14th Jan 13
Sorry, college has made my sense of time warped. 1 month felt way longer than that. Glad that's over.
comment #17699 IronBloodAika 14th Jan 13
In order to post comments, you need to